H&M Brown Bomber Equal Length F-150 I-beams

[motoxscott]

In my quest to transform my '94 F-150 into a trophy truck, I decided to upgrade the front end. I wanted and needed something that could handle the punishment of real racing. With stepping up to 37" race tires, I was concerned with the 2wd spindles, mostly the bearings and snout. I wanted something much stronger, but I didnt want something totally custom and out of my price range and I didnt want to go with a king-pin beam end/spindle. I decided that I needed a set of beams built around using the TTB 4wd spindles. Not many companies build equal length F-150 i-beams and their are only a handful of shops that I trust that could tackle this project and have the geometry spot on. I won't lie, my first choice was Camburg Engineering as I've been super happy with all of their products, they do top notch work plus they are just 15 minutes away. The only problem was they are busy designing and building kits for newer model trucks, they were just too busy to do what I wanted at the time and I didnt want to slow down their momentum. Next best choice was H&M Motorsports and speaking with Kevin there in the past and seeing their work, it wasn't a hard decision to make. So far I'm super happy with what I got and H&M. Mark there did an awesome job building them and Kevin took care of everything else. Thanks guys!

Here are the specs:
- 4130 chromoly equal length i-beams 4" wider per side
- 1 pc i-beam & radius arm for optimum strength
- 1985 Bronco 4wd spindles/hubs/brakes (1.25+ wider per side)
- I-beam pivot points are below frame rails
- Once setup with swing-set steering should cycle 22"-24"
- Track width should be 89"-90"

As you can see the 4wd bearings are much larger and the spread between the ball joints is much wider ... making them much stronger. Also the spindle snout bolts on instead of pressing and is huge.

If you have any questions just ask. If you want to know how much it would cost for you to do the same thing, call Kevin at H&M. He'll answer all your questions and is easy to get along with.

I can't wait to get them on .... I'm just waiting for my shocks to come in now http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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[Brian Mapes]

Nice, Those beam ends look massive. Who is going to do the steering for you? H and M? What length shock are you going to run with those. Keep us updated.

[partybarge_pilot]

Now if you can just do something about the crappy brake calipers......
Gee those beam ends look nice, I wonder how they got them made so fast.......

[Sites]

Maybe you can make a suggestion on what could replace those crappy calipers??? I am running the same 4wd spindles.

[motoxscott]

I talked to Kevin a little about it. He said the easiest thing to do would be to machine the caliper mounts off of the spindle and then build a new "bolt-on" caliper brake mount and weld that on.

I will be running a 14" coilover and a 16" bypass. Steering is kinda up in the air right now. Most likely I'll tackle that myself, but we'll see.

- Scott

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

I have modified a couple of sets of TTB Dana 44 uprights for Chris Wilson to accept CNC Six Piston Calipers and Chuck Neal made us some brake rotor hats (adaptors) so different size rotors could be run. Using a 15 inch wheel is a tight fit and the calipers had to be modified as well, but if your running 17 inch wheels it is a really easy modification and Chuck will be willing to make more adaptors, I’m sure. FYI, the uprights have a tendency to crack, under hard race conditions, behind the spindle snout on the backside around its circumference. We slowed this process by welding in a CroMo ring around the backside and drilling the six spindle boltholes through it. You will also want to reinforce the steering arm by putting the rod end in double sheer. The setup I’m working with uses 300M spindles (snouts), as breakage has been a problem with the stock ones for some teams over the years.

[partybarge_pilot]

Caliper mounts like mentioned above. I made new alum hubs instead of new brake hats to get good disks. If your really worried about the strenght of the snout, sleave it, Your not running 4X any ways.

[motoxscott]

Plans at this point are to use the stock calipers with some Stillen cross drilled rotors I picked up and good brake pads. Down the road I can upgrade the brakes and hub. I need to get the thing built first.

As in regards to the actual spindle/upright. I still need to get them magnafluxed and shot-peened. The streering arm will be double sheered and gusseted. I was even thinking of having the snout and spindle cyrogenic treated if that helps a little. I don't have $1000 for Daves G's 300M snouts so I'll just run the stockers and sleeve the inside to give it some more strength. If I have a problem bending them, then I will look at getting something stronger.

If you have any pics of the snouts sleeved or the spindles gusseted, send them my way please http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Scott

[twillis]

Regarding cross-drilled rotors:

From SPORTSCAR magazine

"Years ago, that gas boundary, along with reducing weight, led to the popularity of drilled rotors. However, in the intervening period, the myth has persisted that cooling is the main reason for drilling rotors. Anyone that tells you that drilling makes the disc run cooler is smoking crack. Drilled holes tend to be stress risers and they tend to be a stress concentrator.Therefore a drilled rotor will tend to have a shorter life than an undrilled rotor..... 'The contribution a drilled rotor made to the system, reducing gas and debris, can be accomplished with a slot.'
Not only will rotor life be shorter but also an on-track failure is likely to be more catastrophic than with a non-drilled disc."

[Kritter]

"disc run cooler is smoking crack"
the magazine really said that? or was this paraphrased...and stress riser and stress concentration is pretty much synonymous. a stress riser is a place of stress concentration.


Good lookin beams.

[John_Bitting]

Damn Scott I am so jealous. Looks like things are coming along great. Keep us up to date with pics and the project progresses.

[CBR_Motorsports]

Looks pretty good Scott. Starting to look like a trophy truck http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[motoxscott]

Thanks for the great compliments everyone. So far I've done the easy part and just signed the checks ... hahaha. The fun part will be building it, which will happen soon I hope. Still rounding up other stuff http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Scott

[mcne]

I have cross drilled rotors on my F-150. My rotors warped really easy with stock tires and my fast driving. So I had a guy in Orange County that does all the cop cars in that area drill my new stock rotors for $45. Then I raised my truck with 35's and I have not warped my rotors once. I know that slotted rotors are the trend now, but Porsche uses drilled rotors on their 911's to this day. I believe they are the ones who started the drilled rotor trend back in the day. My truck is a street truck with stock brakes so I am glad with my rotors drilled to help cooling. If I were to build a dirt truck I would leave the rotors stock to help with braking. You will never build the same heat in the rotors that you would with a road racing car/truck.

[Sites]

Ok, having road raced for a few years, I can tell you that cross-drilled rotors don't do anything but shorten the life of the rotors. From my experience running them, as well as my observation of fellow competitors, they do NOT improve cooling at all, and they tend to crack prematurely. From wgat I understand, cross-drilled rotors that come on high-end sports cars are included due to a general belief by consumers that "cross-drilled" improves "performance". If you look at most factory production race cars (i.e. Ferrari 360 Challenge), they use full-faced rotors, unlike their street production equivelent (i.e. Ferrari 360 Modena) which runs the "high-performance" drilled rotors.

[motoxscott]

Thanks for that info Andy. Now I have to get those CNC hubs and Wilwood brakes up front .... lol.

- Scott

[mcne]

I disagree. Drilled rotors work. You must have had some bad parts or someone drill your rotors wrong. Race cars do use them. Think about it. Motorcycles, dirtbikes and my F-150 use them. That means they work! They do reduce braking slighty but the advantage is reduced temperatures during hard braking. If my brakes were not drilled they would get hot fast causing brake fade and then warp once they cooled down. I went through two sets of stock rotors before I bought new ones and had them drilled. Now four years later they still look brand new. There are no cracks and my pads are still good. Check out Prepare to Win. I believe there is a reference on how drilled rotors should be done.

[mcne]

I did a search for Brembo. They run their brakes on everything! F-1 champion and Super bike champion. Also the Ferrari 360 Modena race. So much for crossed drilled rotors not working.

[Jerry Zaiden]

I have also found that cross drilled rotors are a disadvantage. At Rod Millen motorsports we ran slotted rotors. They gave the best performance on the rally cars, pikes peak cars, and street cars. We even ran Carbon Fiber rotors!

[motoxscott]

I read this on the Willwood site ....

Caution on drilled rotors: There is a common mis-perception that rotors are drilled to improve cooling. The reduced mass of a drilled rotor will dissipate its retained heat quicker, but it also builds up heat at a much faster rate. The decision to use drilled rotors should be solely based on the merits of the lower rotating and unsprung weight, and not for improved cooling. It is not wise to use drilled rotors in sustained high heat on hard braking tracks unless the team budget affords a high frequency of rotor and brake pad replacement.

[michael_loomis]

drilled may work better than stock , but wont last as long. slotted will work better and last longer.

bike rotors and most race rotors are solid with no cooling fins in the middle.

[Sites]

mcne,

Just to poke a few holes in your response.

Here is a Brembo rotor that the Ferrari F1 car uses.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/this-is-me-at/brembo/page2712.jpg

The Ferrari 360 Challenge comes from the factory with full-face rotors -- believe me, I have driven one at Willow Springs. Here is a Challenge brake setup as is from the factory -- keep in mind, these cars are built SPECIFICALLY to race in the Ferrari Challenge race series.
http://www.evosport.com/gallery/images/ferrari/360ch/360CH_02.jpg

I should read Carrol Shelby's "Prepare to Win"? No disrespect to Mr. Shelby, but dude, that book was published in 1975. There have been a LOT of technological advancements over the past 30 years.. LOL

http://www.pitstop.net.au/pitstop/page/technical_race_car_tech/9978.html

[RacerX]

Even if drilled rotors provided better cooling, why would you need them in the desert. I dont see where you would be on the brakes as hard and as long as a road course car would be.

[ACID_RAIN28]

I don't know about that I have seen several protrucks with the brakes lit up at night.

[ntsqd]

Drilled Rotors reduce the thermal mass and the surface area of the rotor. Both will accelerate getting the rotor up to operating temp which makes this an ideal mod for street brakes if using higher temp pad compounds.

Stress cracks on the wear surfaces can be reduced with a radius, not a chamfer, at the hole edge. This does nothing for the stress on the vent void side of the rotor's face. So now the cracks form where you can't see them instead of where you can.
A shallow slot with a sharp top corner and a radiused root corner does a better job of removing the boundary layer gases (almost a thing of the past anyway) and of scraping the pad clean, and has less stress inducing sharp edge length and section change.

Cheap rotors will warp whether you drill them or not. Lately the OE's have been having a lot of trouble with warping rotors. I've hear that Ford SD's, Exploders, and Lincoln Mark's are the worst for this. So buying OE parts isn't any kind of guarantee of getting a quality rotor. If warpage is an issue then get the rotors stress relieved & re-machined b4 putting them on.

Rough rotor max size rule of thumb: Rotor = Rim size -2" This only applies when using real calipers and not OE sliding parts.

Sleeving the spindle--
I don't see this doing much for you. For example, take a piece of 1.5" solid bar and compare it to a 1.5" OD x .5" wall tube. The tube will be so close to the bending strength of the bar that the extra weight of the bar is pointless. Granted, the spindle's wall thickness isn't anywhere close to .5", but that is the easiest analogy I could come up with.
What I suggest is that you weld in the plate Ramsey suggests, only make it with a hole in the center for the largest reasonable bolt size that will fit thru the spindle. On assembly, torque that thru bolt to 85-90% of yield. This will substantially increase the bending strength of the spindle. Now for the spindle to bend the load has to stretch to the bolt. Cheng has all Engineering students do this calc in his Strengths of Materials book, but doesn't put blinking red arrows around it saying "Retain this idea for the future."
Oh, also try to make the plate either bigger or smaller than the OD of the spindle's flange. Do not make it the same size.

A small correction; Carroll Smith wrote "Prepare to Win", "Tune to Win" and "Engineer to Win", not Carroll Shelby. Although Smith worked for Shelby as a Race Engineer during the 60's. Racing has advanced since those books were written, but a LOT of what Smith has to say is timeless.

--ex Wilwood R&D Design Engineer & former Road Racer

[Jerry Zaiden]

I love this photo!

[Steve_HKmtrsprts]

Like this?
Protruck (http://www.race-dezert.com/~steve/Protruck.wmv)

[mcne]

The brembo site I looked at had a picture of a drilled rotor then said they used their products on the Ferrari and F-1 cars. I assumed that meant those ran drilled rotors. Guess not. Smiths books are old and I have read every word of all three books. Very good info for someone has has not built or raced in a race car. His books talk about the carbon rotors that the F-1 cars are using. Those have been around for a long time also. I am sure small design changes have occured over time but the principle's he discusses are the same. At least I learned some new info on the site. Good luck with your truck H&M. Looks great and I am jealous! Brian.

[ntsqd]

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I love this photo!



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Jerry,
That's an every week occurence, sometimes every day occurence at Wilwood on their brake dyno. We used it to destructively test new designs & materials when they weren't using it to pre-bed in racing pads. The dyno was set up to simulate all the weight of a Winston errr Nextel Cup car, only we stopped it with only one caliper & rotor instead of four. If you sell their product you ought to be able to talk Steve into a tour of the place. They may want an NDA b4 they'll show you the dyno though.