Naive Bike Questions

[John_Bitting]

I have grown up riding 2 stroke bikes. Now that I am in the market for a new bike I have looked at both but 2 and 4 stroke bikes but since you cannot test ride anything I have no clue on a couple of things. I gather watching motocross racing that a 4stroke 450 is = to a 2stroke 250? Is this correct? Also would a two stroke KTM300exc be faster then a 2 stroke KX/CR 250? Also is the XR650 comparable to the KX/CR500? I want a powerful bike because I am a big guy but a little confused on this topic. It would be mostly used for Dezert riding. I also noticed the new 4 strokes are pricey. Thanks in advance.

[HECHOMARK]

John, check out this website / company. They have a pretty good set up for riding new bikes to help make your decision on buying a new bike. www.mxrentals.com/home.html (http://www.mxrentals.com/home.html)

[John_Bitting]

Mark thanks for the link. I am gonna go ride with Kritter he has a new CRF450 and a new XR650 so I will get to try out those two bikes. Its a start.

[PBR]

john - you can ride my ktm520 if you want, plenty of power and the magic button http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Vtr_Racing]

John, I know of a killer XR650 set up for desert racing for sale. Send me a PM.......You wont be dissapointed with this bike......

[Ryno]

John-

let me go down the list. A 4 stroke 450 is within the same class as a 2 stroke 250. The low end torque on the new bikes is awesome. When I saw Khris go straight up Shell Reef when I could only dream of this on my CR250, I was sold. However, the valvetrain maintenance would drive me nuts. The XR650 is KING of the desert. Campbell has been riding it for at least 7 years, and won just about every race he enters. Go to the D37 boards, and ask around, these guys race all the time.

www.district37ama.org (http://www.district37ama.org)

I have also come to the conclusion that red is right, as far as bikes go. I do like the fact that KTM's come ready to race from the factory, and their 4 stroke power is unmatched.

[sirhk100]

LOL, valvetrain... My '03 just wasted the intake valves. I upgraded to the SS kibblewhite ones and will be slapping it back together this weekend. I've heard that upgrade virtually eliminates valvetrain service!!!!

[Jack]

Are you telling me that know that the four stroke power is catching up with the two stroke there is no longer the advantage of not needing to rebuild it often like you need to do with the two strokes? So if you need to redo both now, wich is cheaper to do?

[sirhk100]

I can show you NUMEROUS posts from users on thumpertalk.com who have done the Kibblewhite valve change and are running over 350 hours on the motor without re-shimming the valves or anything. Keep up on oil changes, clean your air filter and ride the crap outta the bike is what it looks like. I've got well over 150 hours on my bike right now and NONE of them have been an easy hour. At the track I bounce it off the limiter all day long. In the desert, clean the air filter, lol, what's that? Maintenance... Hmmm, well, I change oil I guess. At 150+ hours I just yanked the top off cause I mushroomed the intake valves. Upon this since I was that far I also replaced the piston and rings. It wasn't needed, everything was still in spec. and the factory hone marks are still present on the cylinder. EVERYTHING was in spec but I just freshened it up since I was already in there for piece of mind. The Kibblewhite valves will set you back $220. OEM Valves will set you back less then $100. OEM valves are not if but when you will waste and replace the intake. Might as well bite the bullet and get the good ones and forget about it. I don't expect to touch the bike for at least another 350 hours. Then it'll probably be a piston/ring deal... $120 for gaskets, piston, rings, wrist pin, and clips from service honda online...

Kritter will back me on this... The CRF450 flat out gets it!!!! Toss another fat [I have been warned] my size on a '04 250 2 smoke of your choice and lets drag race, I'll win!!!!

[Kritter]

I getter done like no other on the fo fiddy. It is nothing like any of my past 250's. I am anal on maintanence so the only thign I see going out is the valves out of spec after a lot of hours and with the SS replacements the bike will be good to go for a LONG time more. I have ridden it at elast once a week since I got it and have at elast 40 hours on it and all I do is change the oil and clean the air filter...

The 650 is a beast as well. I got rid of all the EPA smog shat on there and it is a torque monster and a cadillac to ride.

Both are great bikes. I like the 650 as it is now converted to dual sport and that can be lots of fun. I may actually pic up another so I can do some D37 dual sport events with my ol man.

[BradM]

I have a new XR650 with all the good parts on it and it rocks in the desert. Because of it's size and weight it is very stable and it does ride like a cadillac. Nonetheless, I bought an old cr500 last year and that is the bike that I ride more often.

They are totally different bikes and you can't really compare them heads up until you throw the terrain into the equation. If you want to ride mostly in the desert, at the races, to prerun the courses, etc. the xr650 can outperform almost any other bike and do it in a way that almost seems effortless in comparison. If you want to get into some tighter trails, more technical terrain, or on a track, the smaller lighter bikes are the only way to go. Whether it be a 500, a 250, or a 450 thumper, they will make that type of riding easier for you and you will have more fun. I have riden the xr650 on some pretty tight single track, up some intense hills and it is not as much fun at my 500 in the same places. It is too big and heavy and you have to work harder to ride it there.

John - if you want to ride it in the dez, go for the 650 and you will not regret it. If you just want to play around in the hills, get a bike that is more suited for that type of riding. My offer still stands. You can go out with me for a day or just a few hours and I will bring both bikes. You can ride the xr650 and the cr500 and see what you like best. I don't know about you but I usually find my limit before I find the bike's limit.

The 2 smoke / 4 stroke debate about the MX bikes is a separate matter.

2002 XR650R FOR SALE
4.6G IMS tank
Pro taper clamp / Renthal fatbars
Scott's steering damper
FMF SS power bomb pipe and power core muffler
very low hours, well maintained
$4500 cash

If you by a bike before 1/1/04 you have until 1/31/04 to apply for dual sport registration. After that, no more plates on OHV bikes.

[desertratt]

i have an 02 xr 650. i love it. i have even raced it a few times. did one bitd race and the rest where district 37 races. never have had a problem. its real stable in the sand and lose rocks. i now race quads so the xr is just collecting dust. next time you are over at beards stop in our shop and you can check it out and see what you think. oh its for sale too. asking 4200.00$ its in the classified section. atleast it was.

[michael_loomis]

i dont know khris .... i beat kritter to the first turn at the GP lol !! http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sirhk100]

Yeah, that's great Mike, what do you weigh again? 95lbs? What's Kritter weigh? (no offense Kritter, you know I'm chasing you... I gotta get my [I have been warned] in the gym!!!)

I heard a rumor that you gave the infield a show though!!!

[Kritter]

Not only is there a significant weight difference I wasnt hot off the line cuz I knew there would be a pile up in the first corner due to us beginners not knowing better.

[gosouth]

John,
I own both a CRF 450 and a couple of 650's. An XR 650 is the way to go. Fast, reliable, easy to ride, not real pricey, and very cheap to set up compared to a 450. Sure in a race a 450 or CR500 might might beat you to the first corner but not much farther than that. The guy on the 450 will have to stop shortly to change his oil and the guy on the CR500 will be tired within minutes trying to hold on to that head shaking thing.
GOSOUTH

[michael_loomis]

ok ok so im a light weight guy ... atleast im breakin 160 lol and as far as the infield show ... i just LOVE hearing the crowd roar after i do something for them !! http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/grin.gif

john ... myself ,im lookin into a crf450 in the future , by the time im ready the X model should be out (magic button and all) but the XR650 is truely king of the dez.

[John_Bitting]

The 250x will be the ideal bike for my wife and I cannot wait until they come out although I hope it comes with a reach around because the way honda does it is they will only release a couple of them so everyone pays the full +++ sticker price I will be taking it in the shorts. As far as bikes for myself, I like the XR650 and for the right price would ride one, but I am liking the WR450 and the KTM525 both with electric start and the WR is about $3k less.. I am serious leaning toward The Yamaha. Any bad things on that bike?

[michael_loomis]

after looking at both the yamahas and the hondas at the bike show the biggest thing that stood out to me was the fact that the yamaha models of off road bike and quad with electric start have no kick starter or kick starter option... could be a real bummer down the road. the honda crf250x and the trx450 both have electric and kick. i really had my heart set on a 250x ( 95lbs you know) but im afraid it just wont be quite enough in the sand , average in the dez , but great at the track. where as me on a 450 should rip everywhere.

[desertratt]

there is a kick start option for the yamaha quad. you sure the honda trx had a electric starter? the one i saw didnt.

[BradM]

John,

I am not sure where you are seeing the big savings in the WR450 since it retails for about the same unless you are looking at one a few years old and then the equivalent age xr will be about equal.

The WR450F is basically the same bike as the YF450F with a 5 speed, wide ratio trans and I believe they still put a headlight and tail light on it. It is a shorter and lighter bike and will not be quite as stable as a XR650 in the desert. It is more of a modified MX bike than a desert bike. I have never ridden one but I have a couple friends with WRs and they love them but they are a lot smaller than you or I, and no, they can't keep up with the xr650 in the dez.

One guy I know races in the desert and he got rid of his Yamaha because he said it was hard to handle at speed in the dez. He now races on a KX500, but he would be fast on anything. Another guy I know that races in the dez gave up his Yamaha for a big KTM 950 Adventure dakar style bike and he said later that he should have gone to the xr650. I don't know what he was thinking.

You will have fun on anything but find the one that you feel most comfortable on. Call me, let's ride!

Brad

[John_Bitting]

I was referring to the difference in price between the KTM525EXC and the WR450. As soon as I get my new gear we are going riding..

[sirhk100]

These guys have always been cheap. Add about $200 Shipping to the cost. Getting through DMV can be a problem based on reading Thumpertalk but I had no problem. Make sure they give you a title from another state, hold it for 90 days, and avoid sales tax when you register it...

WR450 (http://www.motorcycle-brokers.com/moredetails.html?52463292&sitecode=motorcycle-brokers)

CRF450 (http://www.motorcycle-brokers.com/moredetails.html?51987990&sitecode=motorcycle-brokers)

XR650 (http://www.motorcycle-brokers.com/moredetails.html?57340278&sitecode=motorcycle-brokers)

KTM525 (http://www.motorcycle-brokers.com/moredetails.html?54118230&sitecode=motorcycle-brokers)

[John_Bitting]

I think that is where my buddy Matt bought his bike from, he got a new KTM for $7200 delivered but then had to pay $700 in DMV fees so He actually only saved about $150 over buying it locally. I have looked at that site before but if I had cash to lay down I would buy a clean used bike but with having to finance a bike I need to buy new.

[sirhk100]

See, I've heard that DMV has gotten pissy with these. For my '03 CRF I paid $5920 by the time it was all said and done, pink slip in hand, green sticker on the bike and ripping through the desert. I couldn't find one out the door in town here for under $7G.

[PBR]

i would stay away from the wr, you have to do to many mods to get the power out of them. the xr650 is a great dezert bike but on a tight trail you will be working your butt off. the cr450 is a great all around bike and it is probably the best bike for everything, it's just missing one thing... the magic button!!! that is why i love my ktm, but a word of warning on the ktm, and for that matter any high performance 4-stroke, you have to maintain it(oil and air filter) every ride or 2 depending on where you are going and for how long. my ktm has 2 oil filters plus 2 oil screens, the first time i changed the oil it took forever, but now i can do it under a half hour. the ktm is spendier than the honda but you get better components (hydrolic clutch, wave rotors, etc...). take people up on thier offers and ride everything and then buy what you like, because when it comes down to it, it's not the aarow it's the indian!!!

i will be in dove springs after x-mas for the weekend, come out and take the 520 for a spin.

[FABRICATOR]

"My new gear", "My new gear",... what happened to your old gear? CR500, still the best all-around.

[sirhk100]

LOL, if you like head shake and bolts falling out all the time!!!! http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[John_Bitting]

What happened to the old gear?

I guess I could have rocked the 88 MSR pants snug but I wanted a chest protector and so I ordered one. With kids now I think a lot different then I used to. I would take a CR or KX500 in a second for the right price, a little headshake never killed anybody. I dont care how I look I just want to have fun.

[michael_loomis]

when my buddy bought his raptor 6 months ago , he was told no starter option ... he really wanted one. he told me he was talkin to a couple guys at superstition had yzf's and they were kinda bummed theres had no starter as well . the yzf at the bike show had kick start only so i assumed there was no option , but i didnt ask.

the honda trx450 on display had an electric start right above the tranny and had a small battery which was also powering an electric fan to draw air through the radiator and oil cooler.

sorry i didnt take enough pics....

[desertratt]

my yfz has the magic button and yamaha offers an aftermarket kick start kit. now as for the honda it opposit, comes with a kick starter from the factory and you can get an electric start in an aftermarket kit.

[BradM]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I guess I could have rocked the 88 MSR pants

[/ QUOTE ]

I know Chuck wears some boots that might make those 88 MSR pants seem almost new. LOL! http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/wink.gif Wasn't it just last year Chuck when you finally broke down and bought some new pants. I know the old gear didn't slow him down any.

I'm ready when you are bro.

[Kritter]

Dont laugh my dad still sports his Malcolm smith sig boots in white and his Rick Johnson fox boots in black....I am getting him new ones for xmas so I am not embarassed anymore when we go ride! He ven tried to pull out the moto 1 bell helmet in Orange and White...I think it was made of sheetmetal!

[BradM]

LMAO

I know my dad still has an old open faced Bell that used when he raced drag boats about 30 years ago. The foam is gone, the green bass boat metal flake custom laquer paint job is all cracked out but he still thinks it's cool. It may be one of those sheet metal ones.... it weights about 5 pounds.

[John_Bitting]

In this months dirt rider there is a very nice DRZ400 dual sported, they have electric start and can be registered for street, lets hear what wrong with them?

[michael_loomis]

the only 2 modern 4 strokes ive ridden were a DRZ400 and a Works Husaberg 600. the berg was a factory MX bike , hard as hell to start , even though the compression release is built into the kick starter. (then again , im a 95lb weakling eh khris) but once you got it fired , that thing is a rocket ship on wheels !!!! h20 cooled single cylinder 600 weighing about 230lbs

the DRZ400 on the other hand , i only rode on the pavement .... i think my buddies XR100 ( damn thats 3) is faster than that pile !

i remember pastrana riding one with a 428 kit on it at carlsbad gp 2 years ago , metzger whooped him on a 250.

[Ryno]

What's wrong with a DRZ? For starters...it's Yellow. Suzuki isn't known for it's dirtbikes. It's known for the Gixers. I think everyone on this board can agree that right now it's between blue and red, and the red guys are way ahead still due to the XR650, and the CR250. If you're gonna get a new bike, the XR650 rules the desert, if it's too much, get an XR400, or a CRF. Hondas are known to be bulletproof, so why buy a suzuki that's prown to being a pile?

[Kbach66]

Hahahaha....well known for the CR.....not this year!!!! Maybe the steel frame bikes, but since they've got the aluminum frame dialed, they haven't been able to put together a decent powerplant. This years CR250 finished last in some shootouts, and near the bottom in the others. Kawasaki/Suzuki have got their poop together and have come out with some good stuff. The KX125 motor rips, so does the suzuki. Unfortunately Honda's behind in the 2-stroke game...but 4-stroke is a different story. The CRF250 and 450 are winning shootouts and are great all around bikes. The YZF450 is a great bike for a expert/pro rider, but is too aggressive for the average rider.

Now....about the GSXR's. Can't say much other than yup....Suzuki knows what's up. They've got a super fast 750 and 1000, and pay great contigency. Honda's 1000rr is going to give it some competition, but for now, suzuki's on the throne....maybe that's why I own a GSXR 750 even though I work for Honda!! Oh....and I've got a 99 R6 for sale if anybody's looking for on PM me.

[John_Bitting]

Alright so no DRZ400..Thank you to everyone for all of your help.

[FABRICATOR]

The worst thing about those old boots is that they take a good 15 minutes to put on. They were old but never used about 8 years ago. I should have sold them then to a vintage racer and bought a new wardrobe like John. Yea the CR 500s shake a little at idle (like any good engine) but once under way they are as smooth as silk. Head shake is from geometry not the brand or make. All CRs are set up for MX or trails. If you tell it who's boss, give it a little more throttle, or add a steering damper, it is a non-issue. I have maybe lost one bolt in 8 years of riding my 500. My friend has one for the dezert that is modified to 540cc like J. Mcgraths hill climber (by the same guy). At about 2.8 pounds per HP with tons of low and mid range torque, that thing is like a Tazmanian devil on sterioids!

[Ryno]

KTM is the big thumper people. The suspension doesn't come close to a Showa or Kayaba bike, but that's what Precision Concepts is around for. I've ridden a KTM525, and loved it. It's got 6 spd, so you can haul [I have been warned] in NO time. I see nothing wrong with a 625. Best thing about KTM is all the good stuff comes on the bike out of the box.

[sirhk100]

John, just step up and buy the bike you know you want!!!

Hold this [I have been warned] WFO!!!! (http://www.servicehonda.com/CR500AF.html)

Or

Destroy people with your roost!!! (http://www.dirtrodders.com/atk700/)

[John_Bitting]

That CR500AF is a great looking bike and there is a used one for sale in my Cylce trader but they still want like $6500 for it. I would rather get a used standard CR500 for $3500. That ATK is cool though. Damn

[Kritter]

jsut got back from hammering the 6fiddy with a buddy up to wrightwood into and over the mountains and into phelan...dual sports rock! Better to save the big water crossing for a hot day!

[knucklemeat]

testrides ,testrides,testrides. if you think you want it ,ride one. my friend owns a m/c suspension shop,and always has the latest bling bling bikes around to check out. just about everyone is making great stuff these days ,and it all comes down to preference. the best advice i've heard is pick a good dealer near your home and start there. personally, i've had great luck with hondas. cr 500's live almost forever,and when ridden properly(you WILL respect 55hp) are great trail bikes.i've ridden the new crf 250,and for a sub-200 pound rider they have plenty of power ,but the big dogs need big power,and lucky for me ,santa brought a new crf 450 christmas eve! i vote honda! good luck and keep us posted.

[Littlenutts]

Go with a CRF250. They are great bikea and have more then enough power. Thats my next ride. I have ridden all of the bikes including the DRZ. The DRZ in stock trim is slow and feels heavy. The 500s are rattel monsters, and will rip your arms off. Set up the suspension of the 450 and you will be happy.