Adding extra injectors for turbocharged motor?

[orvacian]

Anybody have experience with extra injector controllers for high boost applications? I have a 88 Supra that runs 11-12psi now before fuel cut. I wanna get a FCD but I know the drawbacks of that and I am looking to run 15-16psi without running lean and blowing up my fresh motor. My boost controller would be set on 12psi for low boost and 16psi for high in conjunction with the EIC and high would be just to smoke the occational joker who thinks his "stang" or "vette" is fast. It allready kills modded WRX's and pulls on 350z's at 12psi actually. There is a mod using 550cc RC injectors and a Lexus afm but there are issues with that setup like poor idle and such. I like the idea of a stock injection system with a little extra fuel for high boost. Actually I could run a separate tank and use race gas for the extra injector/s only. I am looking for a cost effective method also. Any suggestions?

[BIG_FAT_LOSER]

sprayers and soleniods from a NOS system work? Just a idea?

[frankh]

Seems to me bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure would be easer. What do you think it runs in the 1/4 mile? 10's

[jeff]

You probably know about water injection but this is for those that don't... As long as your current injectors can keep a 14:1 a/f mixture at full boost, and assuming the fuel controller can do this consistently without peaks or dips, larger injectors might not even be necessary. Is it running way lean at max boost right now or ??? I don't have any experience with piggyback fuel injector systems (one for street & one for strip) but I've seen some really good results just using a water injection system to control detonation and lower heat at higher boost levels. Intercooler equipped cars need to inject the water (or water and alcohol mix) after the turbo or it'll just pool inside the intercooler. By keeping the temps down, and I mean way down, you might be able to get away with the current fuel system and still increase the boost levels.

You can check them out online - http://www.aquamist.co.uk/ --- Or just search for <i>turbo water injection systems</i>

Aloha

[Mike_HKmtrsprts]

socalsupras.com (http://www.socalsupras.com) look at this page these guys know alot about what your trying to do or if your local to orange county in westminster ther is shop called under pressure that specialize in high performance supras ask for Matt 714-890-5163.....Mike

[orvacian]

It is probably running low 13s right now (not officially) but from a rolling start it is very fast. I have a WRX myself with bone stock motor and it is WAY slower then the supra. The supra has lots of torque. I am not sure about the air/fuel mixture now but the stock injectors are 440cc which is huge compared to most cars, from what I hear. I know most all of the local socalsupra.com people but this is kinda out of most peoples experience. I was looking for a home-brew solution using easy to find parts also.

[tedmales]

i did a new firebird that runs 11s, and gets 28mpg. you guys with your really really loud( you guys call it fast) cars. if it does not run 10.99 or faster, its not fast, i do not if its a 4 banger, maybe an 13 second lawn mower, but otherwise forget it.

[jeff]

I'd suggest you look into a home brew water/alcohol injection system - it sounds like it'd be perfect for your application and it'd be cheap. They are easy to build yourself and because it just pumps water it's pretty easy to plumb yourself using a reservoir mounted under the hood. I've seen a few do-it-yourself systems and somewhere I have a dyno printout that showed the power difference (more boost with less heat equaled more power) along with an EGT readout that showed how much cooling the home system really provided.

A slightly mod'd WRX can bang off high 12's all day long at a cool track with the right driver. I'm too pu55y to race mine at the strip but I know it hauls ass when it has to. A guy I know with a ECU'd and catless WRX was running low 12's and he eats up clutches, tires, and most of the stock-ish Ford and Chevy V8 RWD hunks-o-junks. And then when it's time to turn it's no contest. Long live Import tuner cars!

Aloha

[UndercoverFab]

if your looking for cheap and reliable you can just put two extra injectors in the intake tract before the throttle body and activate them off a boost referenced regulator with a hobbs switch, its not high tech and its not pretty but it works, pme me or email me if you wanna know more i think i still have a diagram of how it looks and what you`ll need.
oh yeah this is just my opinion but i`d shoot for a 12.5.1 a/f ratio i know 14.7.1 is considered ideal but i always liked a little cushion unless its an all out race car and your not trying to squeeze every ounce of pwoer out of your setup.

[orvacian]

TED, first of all it's a inline 6 not a 4 banger. Second, it will easily be making over 325hp and 350ft/lbs of torque from 3 liters of completely stock longblock. Third, it's rear wheel drive with limited slip stock. I would hardly call it a "lawnmower". Third, that Firebird will be in a junk yard after 15 years while my Supra really just needed some some hoses and a headgasket. Fourth, I am sure it is much quieter then your Firebird. 13 seconds is approximately what it does now for a total investment of $3500 including the car itself, wheels, tires, motor rebuild, turbo rebuild and upgrade, 3" mandrel exhaust, etc... It will be faster when I get some more boost.

Jeff, I love my WRX too but you can't say it pulls hard on the freeway. Yeah, it's really quick if you launch it at 5 grand but it thrashes the whole drivetrain. WRX's rule on autocross type of stuff but get knocked off regularly on road courses and such. They just run out of breath at higher speeds. Sure if you wanna invest BIG dollars you can make it fast but why, just sell it and get the STI, which is what I am planning on doing. I just think there was a lot of hype about how fast they are.

[drtdevil93]

i have always been on the muscle car side, but i have a strong affection for supra's. me and a friend were dressing up and going around to used car dealers to test drive them for fun for a while. god they are fun!! its okay to be love the musclecars, there will always be a place for them. but dont turn your back on technology.
take this into consideration: ive seen lots of supras with 250,000mi. + still going strong.
stock bottomend will hold 700 HP with ease, ive heard of as much as 1200 with an UNMODIFIED rearend.
very good head design, seen many 700 HP supras with untouched heads.
stock trans, from what ive heard, will hold up to 700 ft/lbs
on the make 4 supra (92-97) approx. $2000 in upgrades easily gets you 450 HP
gas mileage still in the 20's.

www.mkiv.com (http://www.mkiv.com)

erik

[orvacian]

Eric, mine is a 88 MKIII with the 7mgte. Not quite the motor that the 2jzgte is but still respectable. The 7mgte can make up to about 400hp with a stock block and upgraded stock turbo. With a bigger turbo and arp studs with metal headgasket it can make close to 700hp!

[UndercoverFab]

i couldn`t find the diagram. depending on how much boost you are making this setup may have to be altered a little bit.
on my buddys datsun with a supra straight 6 pushing 18 pounds of boost we used a single 36 pound injector for the fuel enrichment injector(his car also had the equivalent of 26 pound injectors on the engine) he was using the stock ecu with no mods the 30 pound injectors and a boost referenced regulator that upped the presuure 1psi for every pound of boost, for the extra injector a hobbs switch was used and set at 4psi, when 4psi was reached the injector ran at 100% duty cycle, the only time the fuel map wasn`t good was when the turbo went from no boost to full boost, not that we had any problems with leaning it out or surging it was just slightly rich for a split second, anyways his car ran 10.60`s with this setup and we never had a problem with this crude fuel enrichment setup and it only cost about 60$ to build.
also one more thing with the extra injector you want it after the intercooler(if applicable) and as far away from the throttle body that is reasonably possible waching out for anywhere fuel can puddle in the intake. thats about all i can think of at 4:45am.

[geoff]

dont use water injection, it is a bandaid for poor tuning. Also ted, youre an idiot for thinking like that. who gives a damn how many pistons the car has, check the timeslip. youre not fast enough to talk [daddy didnt love me].

The 7mgte is a decent motor with only 2 issues, head gasket and weight. If orings and a cometic gasket are out of youre budget, dont push your luck (no more than 400 at the wheels)

If you want to add extra inejctors the "easy" way (at the tb) then 2 cylinders will run rich, 4 will run lean. You will blow the head gasket in these areas melt the pistons and/or crack the ringlands. Go get yourself a set of big inejctors, like 72lb/hr and an apex'i AFC. I cant remember offhand waht the MkIII supra had for a fuel pump but more than likely it will be sufficient. I am an MSD dealer so i can get you a nice deal on those injectors and a pump if you need. Take the time to tune the AFC with a wideband and you will have no problem making safe, reliable power. If you dont have access to one i have a few friends that may be willing to lend it to you for a day.

A real turbo wouldnt hurt, either. i build turbo imports for a living, so please respect my advice, it comes from working on a lot of a lot of cars with many different setups...

[tedmales]

oh yeah, i forgot that why top fuel dragsters use turbo honda engines. my bad. you honda guys cry how fast your cars are. ha. like i said if its not 10 seconds, it not fast i do not care what it is. you can tell me all about how they make more power per liter, and thats great, but i could care less, i will race any honda in my 34. its one of those slow v-8s, crummy ls-6. when you want to step up, let me know, and if you need some coffee cans for your muffler tips, we have some.

[Kritter]

my brother in law builds sub 9 hondas...not that I like them but they are fast...I think Geoff might be doing the manifolds for them I am sure he will chime in if he does.

Golden Eagle (http://www.goldeneaglemfg.com/)

[geoff]

i built the turbo setup for the current fastest unibody honda, 8.5 and 172.

ted you are an idiot. I mean this from the bottom of my heart, you are truly a moron.

[orvacian]

Ted, Mark Twain said it best: "It is better to remain quiet and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

[michael_loomis]

Ted thats pretty ignorant of you . as a DIE HARD chevy guy , even i have to admit , the technology in some of those cars is awesome . American car companies are hard pressed to keep up with import HP per liter numbers .

id like to see your "34" hit the road course along with the supra , then hear you talk.

[Kritter]

Aaron you jsut gave me a flash back to "Wilson" on the TV show Home Improvement.

[tedmales]

you guys are right, i should sell the excursion and buy a honda. yep thats the ticket. my 34s' road manners are not bad, i would take it out on the road course. and when i lost it would get over it. the whole thing started by " be just to smoke the occational joker who thinks his "stang" or "vette" is fast". i would have to agree that most mustangs are dog slow. thats the reason that they built the cobra mustang, so there would be a ford that could outrun a v-6 camaro. and if you only have 3k into your car and it makes you happy with how fast it is, then thats great. but everyone doesn't need to get all butt hurt because imports are not that fast. when you talk about an 8.5 second honda, thats fast, but how much? can it drive on the street at all. the technology is pushing the limits, and the engines do hold together well under heavy loads. but nobody can deny that displacement is king. more engine= more power.

[JPDesertsports]

Please tell me to shut up if I'm out of bounds. Is it just me or do the majority of people forget just how fast and what it takes to go 12.00's in anything let alone import or domestic. Technology has come so far so fast, that the general population has become a society of fibbers as far as how fast the car is and what kind of money it took to get there. I respect all realms of motorsports, and it all excites me. Isn't that is what it is all about. As far as fast goes in my opinion, I like to look at the Abel Ibarras, and the Mike Moran's of the world. Innovators and sportsmen. But there are many out there that get no respect. Sorry for the rant.
-JJ

[orvacian]

That's exactly why I knew Ted was full of it when he said the Firebird "he did" does 10.99's and gets 28mpg. Yeah right, it would have to make like 1000hp, be tubbed with drag slicks and fully lightened with no interior......
I did not mean to talk trash on american cars. What bugs me is the attitude that if it is an import it is slow. I should not talk 1/4 mile times with nothing to back it up but my supra IS fast for what I have into it. No, not 10.99's fast. Come on by my place and we can go for a test drive if you like. My friends Camaro used to put down like 500hp on nitrous and still only ran low 12's. When I am done I will have dyno numbers and mabye a time slip too.

[Kritter]

Very true...the car I was referring too I could lift the rear up with one arm and swing it around...with minimal effort. all the weight was in the front but it still weighed hardly anything. It has a radical dual stage turbo system and Motec management, along with a motor my bro in law builds strictly for racing.

[frankh]

The problem is when you go to a 1/4 track and there is like 20-30 little imports with air cleaners sticking out the front of the grill and 5" exhaust tips and it is everything they got for a few to get in to the 13. a stock lighting with slicks runs mid 13. ( dale's has run 11.96) The new cobra with slicks is mid 12 so I would not bash those heavy American cars.

[orvacian]

Yeah, and trophy trucks run 140mph through the desert so anyone in class 7s is just wasting their time and money, right? Who cares what a stock Cobra or Lightning runs, it's STOCK! It's supposed to be fast, look at how much it costs. Look at how much engine it takes to do it. I am much more impressed with a little motor that makes big power and that's because of the hard work the owner put into it. 13 seconds is fast for a Honda, and they don't care about how fast the v8 cars are because they don't want one. Do you compare your offroad racing lap times to a faster class and say "my car is slow"?

[UndercoverFab]

i never said my way was the right way of doing it, its just a bandaid fix if hes low on cash. as far as needing 1000 horsepower and a flyweight car to run 10`s someones been giving you the wrong advice, if you only go that fast with 1000 horsepower somethings wrong. not trying to start a post war or anything but i`ve seen quite a few low 11 high 10 cars without that much horsepower.

[geoff]

all this arguing is what got me into desert trucks... go look on any honda bbs and all there is is trash talking, BS, lies etc etc.

i thought the desert community was a lot closer/cooler than that? Damn guys cmon... dont be so narrow minded. It really doesnt matter what it is. As long as its built right and does whatever its meant to do i respect it. Its all just metal... who gives a damn what the emblems say.

[frankh]

seems to me a 1600 car overall the last mdr race, a 10 car was 2nd OA the race before, so yes I look a the times of faster class, I try to set my limits a little higher.

[UndercoverFab]

i dont hassle anyone thats into [daddy didnt love me] i`m not, as far as i go i dont like imports but i definetely respect the guys who have built fast ones. last night at test and tune me and my buddy both got beat by a rotary powered mazda and we`re both deep in the 10`s.

[Mike_socal]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
dont use water injection, it is a bandaid for poor tuning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is water injection a bandaid? It basically achieves the same thing as an intercooler doesn't it? Cool the intake charge? There's quite a few buick GN guys that run water injection. I ran water injection on a 98 Mustang Cobra that I use to have and had no problems. It worked well running 10-11 pounds of boost on a 9.85:1 motor.

[Mike_socal]

orvacian,
Have you considered an FMU? Maybe an 8:1 or 6:1 if you're only going to up the boost by 4-6lbs.

Also, a good investment would be either an exhuast temp meter or stand alone wideband o2 w/ meter. There's a certain model honda that has a wideband as OEM that goes for about $170. You would just need to find a meter to read the o2 and maybe a data logger.

[tedmales]

cannot be done?

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/61998/

[tedmales]

cam, headers, cat-back, chip, air filter, 4:56 gears puts a 2002 camaro into 11's easy, bfg drag ta's and when we hit the nos it will go faster if it hooks up. hope it will get into 10,s with a little chassis tuning. its not that hard. but then again i am full of it. your know it all. like i said, wanna race?

[singlehanded]

If I was in vegas I bet it all on "no way in hell its in the 11's."
just my 2cents

[orvacian]

I did not look at any of this as arguing, just good conversation. I was just giving you a hard time Ted, I am sure the Firebird is very fast.

I just went to Irwindale's night race tonight and ran some 1/8 mile passes! Just to set a baseline so I can see the difference after I get more boost. I did ok for my first time ever in a drag race in a car I just started driving two weeks ago. My best time was 9.271 seconds at 78.17mph.
My best reaction time was .676. I was running 11psi and some crappy 235/45/17 tires that are almost bald. Once I get a AFC, bigger injectors and a bigger afm, I should be in the low 8's at 16psi.
I was on the left on both timeslips (#5968) and the slower run I had a better reaction but I missed 3rd gear and lost a few tenths at the end.
Ted, you will be happy to hear that I got smoked by a Mustang, he ran 7.98 at 87.21mph but that was with slicks, traction bars and some serious power!

[drtdevil93]

between the supra and the firebird, i wonder which would be more capable of taking a turn?

congrats aaron, we should all go out there one night!! irwindale is a lot of fun, and more spectator friendly (1/8 mile you can see the whole thing a lot better), and the fast guys rely on awesome launches to go fast. my fav's are the vega and the crazy turbo'd pinto (he hits about 125mph in the eighth, and drives it there and back). not bad for a ....turbo'd 4 cylinder. there are plenty of both domestic and imports too.

nice how GM decided to put a rearend with a 7.75" (i think, i know its under 8") ring gear in the transam/firebird, even on the ws6. put slicks on a trans am, launch properly, and the rearend will grenade!! WAJ!!

sorry, ted, im gonna have to agree and say youre being a jacka$$. Racing is racing and fast is fast, it doesnt matter what country its from, if it goes fast, it goes fast. and tell me another car that can go 10's with a stock bottom end, stock heads, and stock trasmission (McLaren F1 doesnt count!!)

I agree there are a lot of idiots in hondas that are really annoying, but there are just as many idiots in mustangs, camaros, etc. i used to do the street racing scene, when we knew the cops, they knew us, and as long as we werent stupid, it was cool. basically after fast and the furious the scene went to hell. now the cops were busy busting idiots doing burnouts in front of large crowds, trying to do 180s, etc; and would have to kick everyone out of the hangout places. too bad, cause i learned a lot from it, and met some good friends while in it.


some cool supra videos:
http://www.mkiv.com/videoarchive/index.html
my favorite:
http://www.mkiv.com/videoarchive/avi-mpg/bryce_dyno_t2k.zip

erik

[geoff]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
too bad, cause i learned a lot from it, and met some good friends while in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hell yeah i hear that... the queens/hunts point and franny lew races in NYC and the philly races up on front street were where i got my roots. now i wont even drive up there http://www.race-dezert.com/vb3/attachments/old/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[UndercoverFab]

geoff i used to hit the same spots in philly till the ricers took over, deleware ave packer ave aramingo the meadows, over by the prison, good times, theres still a couple good spots but we keep them to ourselves now so the ricers dont come and ruin it for us. where are you at in jersey? i lived in toms river until i was 18.

[CanyonMan]

I had a buddy with a VW Scirroco ( I think that's how it's spelled) who built a home turbo charger kit using junkyard car parts. Anyway, he installed an extra injector just after the throttle body and used a pressure switch from a dryer to activate it at boost(his dad owned a commercial washer and dryer company). Short end of the stick is that you can either run a micro switch off the throttle body that is triggered at full throttle and energize the extra solenoid the same way as a nitrous fuel solenoid for the extra gas and plumb it into your fuel rail or pressure line, or, you can use a pressure switch that is activated at boost to activate it. Some simple ideas I've toyed with in the past. You may also want to run an auxillary fuel pump along the frame and a boost activated fuel pressure regulator like Vortec superchargers use.

Just my .02

[tedmales]

it seems that if you were to use a switch to open an injector when at wide open throttle, it would be more like nos then a turbo. it would probably work, but if it was to not function, you could have a meltdown, or if it hung up closed, it could wash the cylinders. i would use 2 switches and make them power both the fuel pump and the injector that way they would both have to work, and maybe even have a pressure switch that would open a turbo dump valve in case the injector tried to activate without fuel pressure.

[drtdevil93]

me and a couple friends will be at irwindale thursday night. since its street legals night, how about you guys bring your stuff and end the arguments where they belong....

erik