Race suit poll Please get involved

[Jerry Zaiden]

[billymanfroy]

Jerry,

ALL of those. I know that doesn't help. I have an insulated (3-layer) suit, and I sometimes even wear the nomex underwear. Everyone gives me crap and wonders how I don't suffocate in the desert, but I have to say it's pretty comfortable - especially at speed. Since I'm paralyzed from the chest down, I need to buy all the time I can in a fire. Maybe if I were able to leap out of the car easily, I'd go with the cheapest thing that would make it through tech. We're adding a new 10lb fire bottle now.

I've met Art Saveedra a few times, and I know Dwight Lunkley pretty well. That's all anyone should need to decide that fire is not the way to get hurt.

For a shop, I'd say your best seller would be the cheapest possible.

Billy

[TRDshaunTRD]

Actually, I would think that the people who would be buying a suit are serious racers who put quality and safety first over cost. The average flatbiller would buy the cheapest just to look cool suit, but they aren’t the ones buying them, the racers are. I for one put safety first and price last and I would look for the highest level of safety and quality when my life is on the line. If you go cheap, whats the purpose of even buying one?

"Those who risk nothing, are nothing."

[hoeker]

FWIW
my last suit came down to fit. i didn't have time(or budget) to go custom, i considered every option you listed, and picked out a suit, after trying it on i needed to do something different. i am 6' and 200 lbs, pretty average size really, but i had a tough time finding one that fit nice. i ended up going a little light on nomex, to get a suit that fit. now i just make sure i have good nomex underwear to go with it. i was greatful my supplier had different brands i could try on, they all are made to fit different.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rosshoek.com>www.rosshoek.com</A>

Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.

[JeffS]

Ross, which suit was that. I'm 6'3 and 275#. I need a suit for guys that shop at big&Tall stores. I haven't tried a 2 piece, but it may be my only option as the last one piece I found was not good when sitting or bending.

Anyone had experience with a good 'big&tall' suit they can recommend?

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.RedRockOffroad.com>http://www.RedRockOffroad.com</A> - There is a fine line between Hobby and Mental Illness.

[hoeker]

i could not find a single piece that fit, but your in a little different build catagory than me. i ended up with an extreme suit, i haven't tested it the hard way, but it held up on the track good last year. as far as fit goes the manufactures that do custom suits can tel you what the measurements are for the standard sizes and how to measure yourself for a custom suit. get this for the brands that are available to you for trying on and see how your physical measurements compare, then go try them on. some i was very close on in one brand, and other measurements in another brand. at that point, just see what feels best to you.

hope this helps, took me 5 suits ordered and a day at the store to finally find a nice fit. if budgets and time allow, it's a lot easier to just get a custom suit.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rosshoek.com>www.rosshoek.com</A>



Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.

[Kritter]

Sparco will personally fit you up nice and the suits are second to none.

Kris
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.barneysprecision.com/fabproducts.htm> Fab Parts</A>

[Donahoe]

When it comes to Race suits I say GO_PIMPIN.... STAND 21 or nothing.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[Jerry Zaiden]

The reason for this poll is to see why it is so hard to sell a $400 race suit. Just about every suit I sell people want the cheap suit, not the safe one. Sparco, MOMO, OMP, and Stand 21 all make good suits. I feel that Sparco and Momo make the best for the money. When I say the best Comfort, quality and safety. My first suit was a $150 suit that was not even Nomex. I did not know the difference. But now I do. I feel that Sparco makes a great suit for $399 and is a 2 layer nomex suit. I have seen a few race cars burn down and often wonder what would happen if there was someone inside "god forbid." A good suit with nomex underwear would give you a few seconds to get out. So please if you race look into this. I just a video on the whole safety thing and it scared the $h** out of me. I just do not want to see anyone get hurt.

[TxPhPrerunner]

I'm not anywhere near ready for a race suit yet, but I checked quality. To me quality and safety are related in a race suit. If it's not safe Its junk. I could just use some jeans an a t shirt if the race suit isn't safer. In reality I will look for all 3 when I do buy. I will look for the one that will give me the most safety, durability and best fit for the money and get that one. The desert can be a dangerous place, last weekend proved that. I wouldn't want to be a statistic because I saved money on my safety equipment.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[TxPhPrerunner]

A little clarification. I'm not implying that safety equipment had anything to do with either of the incidents Saturday but rather should I ever be involved in any kind of incident I would not want to die because I cut corners on safety. I know this is a touchy subject (with good reason) and I don't want to be miss read.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[WorkInProgress]

Having a crappy race suit is in a way like having a crappy roll cage. They both put your life in danger.

You gots to pay da cost to be da boss. - Snoop

[ntsqd]

Jerry, I think people forget what it is they are buying when they see that $400 price tag. They see the $400 and then the $199 next to it and can't tell the difference. Then they figure that $200 is better spent on some part that will make their car faster. All the while forgetting why they really need a suit in the first place.
I'm afraid it's going to be on your shoulders to thoroughly educate your customers (those that will listen) as to why there is a difference in price. Maybe an adjustment of the price range of suits you carry is in order ? What's that term my friend uses, Market Discrimination.
I worked retail in a different 'hobby' industry, but one where there are significant safety issues too. If I was not comfortable with a given safety product and a customer was asking about it, I told them "We carry that because some of our customers want it, but I do not think it will do what it should." My bosses weren't real happy with that, but first and foremost I had to be comfortable with whether the product would do what it was intended to do and they came to accept that. The last thing I wanted was for someone to get injured because I did a 'sales job' on them and sold them a POS.

Is there any kind of standardized test for longevity of a suit in a fire ? Is it possible to point to the $400 suit and say "In a non-fuel saturated fire test this suit will give you approximately 15 seconds to get out, where that $199 suit is only good for 5 seconds in the same test. " ?

HTH

TS

I used to swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.

[JasonHutter]

I would be careful talking about how long you have to get out. There is a system that rates the suits and I don't have the info right now. The thing you need to be careful with is telling someone they have a certain amount of time. If they are in that kind of environment for just a second and take a breath, they are done!

Jason

[Jerry Zaiden]

One of the tests was..
Du Pont, the manufacturers of Nomex, carry out exhaustive tests on suits whether F1 Drivers or fire fighters using life sized manqein, equipped with computer-linked sensors. The analyzed data from Thermo-man is used to calculate simulated burn patterns.
"Thermo-Man" has 120 electronic sensors on his hands, torso, arms, and legs.
The suit is engulfed in a 1,000 c flame for a pre-set period, a scenario equivalent to being caught in a chemical flash-fire.
This test simulates what is potentially the most lethal situation likely to be face by fire fighters.
test...
1) Fire-proof cotton vest and leggings. = 4.5 seconds and burns over 58%.
2) Nomex vest and leggings. = 8.0 seconds and burns over 18%

I will get more data on this in the few days.

[hoeker]

another interesting peice of info that i would like to see is if all manufactures have the same standards of what a "single layer" is. IE. is a single layer simpson, equivalent to a single layer sparco. also, what does going from single layer to double, to triple do to these numbers, i would assume the ratio is parabloic, not linear. is this correct?

fire has to be the single biggest fear of mine personally, i torched one hand good many years ago, and have never experienced anything even close on the pain scale. no expense should be spared on fire protection in the race vehicle, and QUALITY fuel cells. personally i am dissapointed with what i see let on the race track in this area, maybe your sanctioning bodies are better, but in my opinion a bladder cell should be mandatory.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rosshoek.com>www.rosshoek.com</A>

Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.

[jeff]

If your head is worth $1.00 dollar, go out and buy a $1.00 dollar helmet. The same applies for anything safety related. Get Art "The Tech Dude" in here and I'm sure he'd be happy to drive the point home.

I'm sure a display would work wonders where you had a small propane torch "test" system that proved the difference in protection between the two suits.

Eight seconds? That ain't squat when your on fire. By the time you realize you are on fire you've wasted at least two seconds... calm down enough to realize it's time to get the hell out and start undoing the belts is easily another two seconds... and if you are on your lid you better damn well plan on spending twice that time trying to get undone. That still means a cheap suit isn't even adequate for a best case scenario fire... and who ever heard of a best case scenario fire?

Reading that last paragraph takes about 12 seconds. Reading these final two sentences takes closer to four seconds.

Aloha

[ntsqd]

Not to hijack, but Art is an inspiration.

Good point about not creating the mindset of "I have 12 seconds to get out of this car". I was more interested that the customer have quantitative data than what form that data took.

TS

I used to swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.

[Jerry Zaiden]

The time does not mean you have seconds to get out it means you have this many second until you bur this much! So the more you burn the less you you will be able to get out. But like Jason said if you take 1 breath you are done! This is where the pumper should have a good sound improvement! I do not think the paper element would work so well in a fire.
The point of this topic is on race suits so please lets stay there.

[Tim_Price]

For good info on this subject try the SFI Foundation web site. They test and approve (or don't approve) just about everything for racing in this country, including drivers suits. If it's not SFI-approved, SCORE won't let you race in it. I know a little about this because SFI just approved a T-shirt I developed for wearing under your drivers suit. Most suit makers recommend that you wear fire-resistant underwear (to protect you not so much from direct flames but from "heat transfer" which I'm told is how most race accident burns occur ) but I couldn't find anything except Nomex. And I saw a lot of guys wearing non fire-resistant cotton t-shirts. So I've started making long sleeve desert racer T-shirts with Valzon, a fire resistant fabric used in industrial applications that's 45% cotton, so it feels like a regular T-shirt. The cotton content means it can wick away perspiration to help you feel a little cooler. And the fire resistant property won't wash out over time like Proban does. I call them Flame Lab™ T-shirts and you'll be able to see them at the Baja Bros. Airstream trailer at some contingencies or at the new www.bajabros.com web site (which should be up and working by next week).

[ppumper]

Ok. At Simpsonraceproducts.com you can find technical information on all of the above. For the big guy, two-piece suits are not legal in Off Road racing, so you'll have to keep up your search. You might try an XXL. Any suit that has an SFI tag on it has a rating which all meet the same requirements for that level. In regards to the single layer suit that wasn't even nomex, it could have possibly been proban which is a treated cotton material that will wash out with time. But, with that said, for it's life, it's just as fire resistant as nomex. There are many types of nomex, like woven filament, knitted filament, sateen, and gaberdine (this one being the most durable). Cotton underwear is NOT the thing to wear under a suit as it will retain moisture and in a fire will cause burns from steam. My recommendation is CarbonX to be worn under a suit.
As far as a Pumper System, using a fire resistant cotton filter would not be the way to go. All the hoses on the market are made of vinyl or plastic, which should melt quickly, as to not allow smoke or fire to be transerred into the helmet. In other words, the thinner the better.

Harold Nicks
Parker Pumper

[roach]

hey jerry, i think you did the wrong poll, of course everyone is going to answer "safety" as their first and foremost reason in choosing a suit. even if they decided against when actually buying. what you should have asked was "which suit do you own.......one layer, two layer, 3 layer - what brand.....simpson, sparco, walmart". or just as good would have been....."how much did you pay for your new suit". we are what i would call "a fixed income" race team, (big dreams, small budgets!) but i have a 3 layer simpson suit (man can it get hot in there!!!), and a good shoe helmet to back it up. definatly not the cheapest, but i thought money well spent.

[motojojo7s]

I get so many people in my shops who aren't willing to protect their kids head with helmets...after I ask how much they put into protecting their kids feet I ask if they are willing to at least protect the kids head for the same price (It’s not for the sale...I just hate seeing kids w/o helmets). They always seem to come around.

I voted quality because for me a quality suit is durable, safe, etc.

[WannaB-class5]

I am one broke *** off-roader and we are hoping to race starting 2006. Three of us are just starting to look into suits. Is a good suit only $400 and some people are not buying that? One shock costs more than that! How much for the TOP of the line suits? Don't let me hijack, a PM would be great (or should I just call Jerry at Camburg?) thanks all and good thread

[Next-Gen]

Ok guys heres the deal. A single layer of Nomex will protect you for about 10 seconds or from a 400 degree flame then it starts to curl up and break like a potato chip. Most drivers get burnt not from the flame itself but from steam. The Nomex doesnt wick any moisture so it starts to biol before the material burns through. Check into Wearing some Carbon X underwear from Ringers Gloves or Simpson under your Nomex firesuit. Its a small price to pay for some ssecurity.
[LEFT]Carbon X is a wicking material so it gets all the moisture away from your body and keeps you dry. It will take a direct flame at 3000 degrees for 120 seconds before it starts to burn. Ryan Newman,Tony Stewart,Rusty Wallace,Alex Tagliani and almost all of the professional drag racers are running it just to name a few. Email me if you have any questions.

[Jerry Zaiden]

I am one broke *** off-roader and we are hoping to race starting 2006. Three of us are just starting to look into suits. Is a good suit only $400 and some people are not buying that? One shock costs more than that! How much for the TOP of the line suits? Don't let me hijack, a PM would be great (or should I just call Jerry at Camburg?) thanks all and good thread

the Sparco "ONE" suit with Nomex underwear. Make sure the suit fits correct. if the suit is to baggy you could have a problem. I use the suit called tthe Sprint it is a 2 layer suit and also comes in a 3 layer. i also wear nomes underwear. The more layers the safer you are! We also give a 10% RDC discount so mention RDC and you get your Deal. We only carry MOMO and Sparco because we feel they are the best. The fit, function, etc. is why we like them so much.

[powerbox_builder]

How about breast pockets? I had the manufacturer add a velcro breast pocket to my last suit. The pocket was great but the suit sucked! (it was a cheap suit) Does Sparco offer breast pockets? They are nice to have in our type of racing: pocket knife, flashlight, tow-out money:).

[ntsqd]

This month's issue (Oct '05) of Speedway Illustrated has an article on fire suits. Page 58

[AZ45]

Here's the deal on SFI-
The SFI Foundation is a non-profit organization established to issue standards for the performance and racing industry. SFI tests a long list of products including gloves, neck braces, harnesses, shoes and uniforms.
The SFI specification for uniforms, spec 3.2A, rates how long a driving suit will offer protection from a second degree burn in an approximation of a raging gasoline fire between 1800 and 2100 degrees. SFI ratings are calculated in calories per unit area per time of exposure. To figure a uniform's approximate protection time until second degree burns, divide the Thermal Protection Performance (TPP) number by 2.

These are the minimums for each SFI level

layers - Material - SFI rating - TPP Value - Time to 2nd Dgr burn
One - - - Nomex - SFI-1 - - - 8.1 - - - - - 4 seconds
Two - - - Nomex - SFI-5 - - - 21.8 - - - - 10 seconds
Three - - Nomex - SFI-5 - - - 31.2 - - - - 15 seconds

The more layers, the more protection. Underwear adds another layer.
Most manufacturers do not publish the TPP ratings for liability reasons.

I find that most people notice they're hot when they're sitting still, not when they're driving, so it's less of an issue than you may think.

Sparco, Momo, Alpinestars and Stand 21 build great suits, but they all have to meet the SFI specs, so there are lower priced options if you're on a budget. Jerry's right about the single layer Sparco with underwear, it's a pretty good deal.


One more thing to think about on he topic of fire safety that desert racers sometimes neglect is the imortance of Nomex gloves, shoes, helmets and proper fire systems.
So you have a good 3 layer suit thats should give you about 15 seconds to escape, but your hands have a pair of mechanics gloves melted to them, and your head and feet are on fire. You'll never get out, think about the only parts they will be able to leave exposed at your funeral, yuk. When you're in the Desert you don't always have the luxury crashing and burning next to to a fire truck or your crew, so having an on board fire system can add a BUNCH of escape time when your alone.

Last point, Nomex Auto racing helmets have thicker shields that allow more time before melting, and better protection against debries.

One more last pont, the breast pocket is a great idea, Jerry could probably have one put on if you bought a suit. How about
a specific suit for desert racing? What else whould it need? Knee pads, sleeve pockets, hidden Baja $$ pocket?


Jeff
www.upr.com

[TROPHYSEDAN]

Safety .You never think of it tell you need it. To race Pikes Peak I had to buy a 2 layer suit. J D Safety suit. FIA roll bar padding at $3 a foot. When i got there 2 hr before running up the hill i find out the helmets dont meet tech .There Shoei brand. Motorcycle helmets. You have to have car helmets. I had to borrow 2 helmets that had no intercom so we could not talk to each other for the first 3 days tell i bought a intercom for Saturday. They have fire retardent inside and the impact is different. There is alot of stuff you dont think of when it comes to safety. I think Off road should look into some of the stuff the rally guys are doing.

[ntsqd]

Here's the deal on SFI-

HIGHLY recommend reading that article I mentioned. Among other things it talks about how the TPP now appears to be optimistic in predicting time to burns. :(

I'm helping a guy who is a para work on his 1200 truck this weekend. I plan to bring this up and look at his Fire system as I'm guessing it isn't good enough.

[AZ45]

I get Speedway Ill. so I just read the article. Good information on TPP, but it's still the standard being used, so it's all we can go by. It will be interesting to see what comes of it. You didn't have to throw down the unhappy guy at me!

[ntsqd]

Wasn't thrown at you, thrown at the possibly bad burn time predictions. I'm hoping that their efforts result in some sort of better, more realistic index.

:) Feel better now?

[AZ45]

Much better, THANKS!

[OldStroppeTeam]

I voted, but I forgot to put my 2 cents in. I wear an single layer suit, with nomex underwear, sox and gloves with Leather cowboy lacer boots. I (we) should wear a balaclava.......but don't...because.... ummm, it's not cool?? When I am fighting fire, I wear all my gear , everytime....Why not afford myself the same protection when I'm racing? I don't know!!!
I 'm looking at the carbonex underwear, anybody have any opinions on it ??

[Racer277]

Safety .You never think of it tell you need it. To race Pikes Peak I had to buy a 2 layer suit. J D Safety suit. FIA roll bar padding at $3 a foot. When i got there 2 hr before running up the hill i find out the helmets dont meet tech .There Shoei brand. Motorcycle helmets. You have to have car helmets. I had to borrow 2 helmets that had no intercom so we could not talk to each other for the first 3 days tell i bought a intercom for Saturday. They have fire retardent inside and the impact is different. There is alot of stuff you dont think of when it comes to safety. I think Off road should look into some of the stuff the rally guys are doing.
Yeah, you really don't want the plastic interior of a MC helmet melted all over your head....Nomex interiors on Car helmets are the way to go.

[AZ45]

"I 'm looking at the CarbonX underwear, anybody have any opinions on it ??"

CarbonX and Nomex have different unique qualities that makes either a good choice. CarbonX will take direct flame for more time without burning, Nomex is a better thermal insulator.
In a very unscientific test, I put a torch to both and the results would probably lean you to CarbonX because it takes a few minutes to burn a hole, the Nomex in direct flame didn't hold up near as well to the flame, but the typical burn is from heat.

I think CarbonX is more comfortable, but only available in black makes it warm in the direct sun.

Sparco has a new product called Carmyth that is really a great combination of both, but a little more $$.

The difference between good safety equipment and bad stuff is really minimal. The argument that more layers makes it to hot is weak. The only time you really notice being hot is when your stopped. Prep your body like you prep your car, make sure it has plenty of fluids or you'll blow it up.

I attached a test done with Nomex, CarbonX and Carmyth.

[desertracer]

A bit off topic from this one but maybe somebody can help me out, time to wash my sparco suit for the first time. I couldn't find any directions on it, should cold water in the machine with a hang dry be ok for the suit?

[Steve_Sourapas]

I would never wash a race suit. I always have mine dry cleaned, it will look better and last longer.

[OldStroppeTeam]

A bit off topic from this one but maybe somebody can help me out, time to wash my sparco suit for the first time. I couldn't find any directions on it, should cold water in the machine with a hang dry be ok for the suit?

I have washed mine for years, I use WOOLITE and luke warm water, either hand wash or delicate setting in your washing machine. Then hang it to dry..

[AZ45]

Dry cleaning is the way to go, but if you wash it in the machine on a gentle cycle it works fine.
We're working with a company that has a specific cleaner for Nomex, as well as a wash in repellent to keep crud from soaking in and protects it from UV damage. Hopefully it will be available by the end of the year.

[tsm1mt]

The reason for this poll is to see why it is so hard to sell a $400 race suit. Just about every suit I sell people want the cheap suit, not the safe one. do. I feel that Sparco makes a great suit for $399 and is a 2 layer nomex suit. I have seen a

Where can I find the details outlining what a "safe" suit is versus a "not so safe" suit?

The Camburg site lists two suits, and NO details about why one is more or less expensive than another.

What's the level of protection for a $100 suit from Crow or RCS/RJS or elsewhere vs a higher-end unit, and what's the right spot for a Sportsman?

$100 suit + D-cell/Hutchins/Hans type unit, or $500 suit and a neck collar?

[OldStroppeTeam]

[QUOTE=tsm1mt]Where can I find the details outlining what a "safe" suit is versus a "not so safe" suit?

Start , by reading everything we have posted here so far... Then decide how much YOUR life is worth........Like i'm one to talk.......

[tsm1mt]

[QUOTE=tsm1mt]Where can I find the details outlining what a "safe" suit is versus a "not so safe" suit?

Start , by reading everything we have posted here so far... Then decide how much YOUR life is worth........Like i'm one to talk.......


Yeah, about page 3 I found the SFI specs. ;)

To sum things up a little, I guess it's not so much the "price" of the suit that makes it better or worse, but on the surface it's the SFI rating, with SFI-1 being minimum, and some people are suggesting that SFI-1 is below their personal opinion of a minimum.. that I should seriously consider stepping up to SFI-5. Brand and style and price being secondary to meeting the Spec.

I've given the "what's your head worth" speech before as well, but unfortunately, my life is worth more to me than *I* can afford, so like everyone else, there are calculated risks.

You guys wanna have a panic attack?

The sanctioning organization I regularly race under has some minimum safety rules..

Rollcage must be built from 1 5/8" OD Sch40 pipe or better (yes, pipe, but at least no threaded elbows..).

DOT Helmet required (not Snell). Long-sleeves, long-pants, fire extinguisher within reach.

That's the majority of it.

Getting the rules updated to even ALLOW DOM for cages took some doing (.120 DOM isn't "minimum Sch 40 wall thickness".. it's thinner).

My safety upgrades have been evolutionary.. starting with a hand-me-down pipe cage and used decommissioned helicopter belts and an old DOT motorcycle helmet.. and a very cautious driving style.

As I've gotten more aggressive, I've stepped up my safety program. In Feb, after my first roll (pipe held up fine, BTW), I bought a new SHOEI and pumper from PCI.. much nicer.. still haven't made replacing the rollcage a priority, but it's getting closer. Even borrowed suspension seat, instead of the old plastic buckets I was running.

This week I thought it was a banner year for safety on my team.. I bought 1-piece driver's suit.. huge step up, considering my current safety situation outclasses the majority of my competition.

Of course, it was only an SF-1 spec'd suit so maybe I need to upgrade again..

On the plus side, it's all short-course races, and I run an open cockpit with little flammable materials around, aside from the fuel in the stock fuel tank (fuel cells not required here..)

One point on the Snell Motorcycle vs. SA automotive helmets.. the auto helmets are Nomex, but the motorcycle helmets have a wider field of vision.

The argument is on a m/c you need to see traffic around you, but in a car, your field of vision is limited by the car wrapped around you.

An open-style cockpit in a desert-style race truck sort of defies that "you don't have as much visibility as a bike" thing, and the side-by-side style of racing means you need to be MORE aware of your surroundings than, say, a straight-line drag racer would.

[AZ45]

Moto helmets designed for the street market do have a wider field of vision, but as far as I know it’s not part of the Snell testing process. They test for impact on the shell for both, and fire for auto. There are several auto helmets that have wide fields of view for around $300.00 if that’s what you more prefer but the bigger the opening, the less protection. Moto helmets have only a 2mm thick shield, auto helmets have 3mm shields which will take a rock hit better. The Shoei is a great helmet, it would be a little better if it was Nomex and SA rated though.

The funny thing is, PCI, Parker, UPRacing all sell inexpensive SA rated Nomex helmets, but everyone still buys the Shoei.