susp. for 4wd 92 Toy

[dunerking]

I just sold my 91 Toy set-up with the Total Chaos ball joint frt w/SAW ,the rear had Deaver 62" w/Bilsteins, Chaos King Kong streering.Anyways my questions to off-road Guru's is,I just picked up a 92 4wd Toyota and was thinking of doing some up-grading if you know what I mean.Hoping maybe a couple of the heads out there may have some info for me as far as setting up a 4wd Toy and make it hook up.Was looking at Total Chaos or ATS or?Was probably going to stay away from the 62" springs and stick with something closer to stock length?What do you think.Got some cash to start making things happen,let me know what to do.

hit it hard

[Tyson]

Are you going to retain the 4wd? What are you looking to do with the truck (how big do you want to go?)

Look at me, I can fly http://www.race-dezert.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
Check It</font color=red> (http://www.geocities.com/yotapunk>)

[JrSyko]

Sounds like you were on the right track with your last truck. Were you unhappy with it or something?

See ya in the dirt!

[Curtis Guise]

Total Chaos Caddy kit with T100 axles works great in my truck. I used stock springs in the rear with longer shackles and the mounts moved forward on the frame. And I added leafs to the spring pack while taking out the overload leafs.

[dunerking]

For sure want to retain the 4wd,looks like the most I will get out of the Chaos wiil be 12" with the t-100 axles.ATS claims to get the same unless you go with the big money Porsche CV and custom axles.So looks like I will stay with the t-100 axle set-up.I guess with the 4wd a coilover set-up is not a option?Any thoughts on the ATS? This time I want the rear shocks to stay under the bed.To have it handle like Dan's Toyota would be asking a lot but something as close.Thanks for the feedback.

hit it hard

[dunerking]

No I was pretty happy with it,just that when I had the rear susp. done I had told them to keep the bed open(no shock tower),but when I picked it up there was these shock towers sticking through the bed,oh well.I need the bed space to haul around my quad,I sold my long travel sand car and my quad is my salvation,if you know what I mean,if I do this truck up a little maybe this will relieve me of the loose.Thanks for any info.

hit it hard

[JrSyko]

You can run coilovers and retain the 4x4. Not so sure about getting handling even close Dan's yota while keeping the shocks under the bed.

See ya in the dirt!

[fishd00d]

Get the Total Chaos Caddy kit....they make it with a uniball upper now too....I have the kit and love it...Had it for almost 2 years and never had one problem with it.

You CAN NOT run a coilover and and 4wd on the Caddy Kit that I can see....because I tryed to do it.

Total Chaos is suppost to be making tortion sockets and adjusters soon I was told because those are the weak link on the Toyota 4wd...so bring extra rear tortion adjusters with you and spare tortion bar because YOU WILL strip one or or break it if you actually drive your truck off road.

I would just go with that kit with the t-100 axles and run a nice bypass shock and be set!

Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[JrSyko]

Sorry, I was thinking he had a newer Taco. My bad!

See ya in the dirt!

[dunerking]

Fish loven those videos,I've got all the heads checking them out.My favorite one is the 2002 Best Of,what happened at the end with those two trucks,pretty sweet!Anyways back to work,so you had the T.C. uniball Caddy Kit,do they make the Billet cross arm for the 4wd,what do you think?What about the King Kong steering?What about the rear end,can I get away with running shocks under the bed?Will I have to run the 62"Deavers or can I run something a little smaller?Thanks again Fish and keep up the awesome video work.

hit it hard

[cleartoy]

Ill chime in.

I reccomend the Total Chaos kit. The T 100 axles will serve you well.

For the back,its up to you. If your a mild off roader, stock springs with shocks under the bed will suit you. If you like to haul azzzzzz then you NEED 62" springs and shocks through the bed to keep the truck in a straight line. But since youve been there and done that and need hauling space I think youve answered your own question. Just tear it up on the Banshee. Timmy Boy makes some nice arms for it.

94 Toyota stdcab 2x4
99 Yamaha YZ250

Got Sand??

[fishd00d]

That clip at the end of the video was new years 2 years ago where people were jumping and the one truck came up the back side of the jump.....

I have the Balljoint Caddy kit because they JUST came out with the uniball upper. It dosent give you any more travel since you have to limit the 4x4 to 12" anyways....its just a little stronger and then you can be "cool" and say you have a uniball lol.

They do not make the billet crossshafts because you dont really need them on the 4WD its a different design then the 2WD where there is not as much stress on them. I have never seen or heard of anyone with a problem with the 4WD cross shafts.

Total Chaos will be making the King Kong steering for the 4WD in the future they told me but they have been busy with other projects recently.....I have had my steering on the truck since 1992 when the truck was made and its ALL STOCK....I have never had one problem with it. The things that will wear out are the Idler arm balljoint and the pitman arm balljoint. I just replaced mine after 2 years of beeting it with 35's...

As far as the rear you can run shocks under the bed if you want. It will work ok but it will never keep up with the front. I would say run some 62's and do a super low profile hoop in the bed with maybe a removable crossbar or something you can take out to put in your quad and then bolt back in when you get to the desert!



Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[Jkrell]

I have been thinking over a similiar project with my daily driver. For the front I have to agree. ATS doesnt come close to the Chaos kit. ESB also makes a kit and it looks pretty good from the pictures. I don't know of anybody running it though...and I am not sure if he makes a uniball option....though I'm not sure if that is a total necessity. I second fish's suggestion to do something with the torsion adjusters and also the torsion adjuster bolts. I have had some friends who have had problems with these. For steering nobody makes a "steering kit" to my knowlege. Orvacion built a one off idler arm thats pretty cool and relatively easy to build (post some pics buddy). Choas only makes a tie-rod upgrade. Stock stearing will probably last a little while though.

For the rear. I have been thinking under the bed also and NOT running the 62's. because I want to keep the bed clear for bikes and parts. From what I hear you can get 14" of travel out of the rear with the standard bolt on longer shackle and a spring re-work by deaver. Thats enough for me. I say do that, then run a Bilstein 12" shaft 10" inch body shock which I think (checked it with my eyeball) will allow you to cycle the full 14" if set up properly. Throw a hydro bump in the back get the shocks set up right (PETE FABS the man) and you should have a pretty good working truck.

14" isn't 19" like the 62's...but...I only have 14.5 on my race truck and it was enough to take the field at the last race...I dont think you can drive it much harder without more motor. Its about getting it set up right.

One other thing I might do. Put a fuel cell back there behind the rear axle. I am not an engineer but I think that this will help weight distribution overall and take some of the load off the front end and overall help you get the truck working better.

Tires 33 x10.5 a/t or muds - 4:88 gears and a locker in the rear. O yeah...if you really want to beat it couple other things..plate the rear axle or you will break it off at the flanges eventually (this takes A LOT of abuse though) and put solid mounts on the cab and put lock nuts on the bed mount bolts...nothing worse than seeing a bed falling off a prerunner.

Did I leave anything out? Mabye a cage at this point...starting to get pretty fast.

Good luck.

Jon

[fishd00d]

Mike runs ESB Fab...he might chime in here but he is making steering kits recently and he might be making one that will work on the caddy kit.....we'll see what he says.

That is the one thing along with the tortion sockets that we are SOL for now....

Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[dunerking]

Fish,right on with the info!On the uniball kit, is the uniball that mounts to upper spindle mount the only difference between that and the balljoint?My last truck had the 62"s and I was trying to stay away from dealing with the fabricator's,trying to find a quality fab guy up in L.A. just plan sucks.Would consider running something maybe a little longer than stock with a longer shackle,would this work?My last truck had a removable cross bar and still would not work with the LT-500 quad,maybe if the tower was right behind the cab and low like you had pointed out,what do you think?That is good news with the steering,that is like a $900 investment!Running 35's wow that is pretty big,what kind of gearing did you run?4 cyl?Thanks again!

hit it hard

[fishd00d]

I believe you just drill out the hole on the spindle snout and put a bolt through it....The upper arm is the only difference in the kit. But I am not 100% sure how it goes on but its still all BOLT ON.

Ya I put the 35's on and jumped it a few times and they fit pretty good now....Its the 3.slow V6 but its actually pretty fast....its had some motor work but its still stock gears! One tire fire 4:10....lol

Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[dunerking]

JKrell,thanks for the info,who is this ESB?So what is the option for the torsion adjusters and the torsion adjuster bolts?Fish mentioned that he never encountered many problems with the stock steering,that was running 35's,I plan on running 33's,but you never know.
Now the rear you mentioned longer shackles,where are getting those from?And when you said re-work the springs,I'm guessing you mean stockers?I really want to keep things down under the bed,is it possible to mount a slightly longer spring with the longer shackle without relocating the front or rear spring perches?Will it benefit anything with that set-up?Who is this PETE FAB?
Was trying to decide if I want to spend the money for the bypass in the front or just run a 2.5 King or Bilstien? I was going to probably stay away from the fuel cell for the reason of getting a smog cert.Thanks for the time and info

hit it hard

[yotatech]

i have the caddy kit and am prob going to be setting up the rear under the bed. What my question is, is is there any prob with a 33x10 rubbing at bump with the stock fender, im trying to stay away from glass on the rear for now. Thanks. Colin

[fishd00d]

For now just bring a spare front tortion mount with you cause they will fit either side and goto a junk yard or someplace and get a spare set of rear adjusters and a spare tortion bar to bring with you.

Steering should be good for a while.

You can take your springs to Deaver and they will build a stock replacment pack for you to use. And just get like a 2" lift shackle and you can get about 14" out of them....

If you have the $$ go with a bypass because you will love it.



Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[fishd00d]

I ran 33x12.5R15 Mudders with STOCK suspension front and rear....the rear was fine just pull the bedside out a little....for a 10.5 you shouldnt even have to pull it any....

Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[drtdevil93]

if you dont want to move the rear spring mounts, then you cant run a longer spring. you dont want to move the shackle mount back, cause the frame is weak at the end. i take the stock main leaf, and build a spring pack under it. this bolts in to stock mounts, and gives about 12" of travel.

if you want to go long travel and keep the shocks out of the way, there is an option. a cantilevered shock mount. this puts the shocks horizontal instead of vertical. you can also make improvements to the motion ratio, eliminating the need for a bypass shock. and people will think you are cool.

erik

[sirhk100]

Yeah Austin just like you love your bypasses!!! I don't think I've heard a man cry more then you about 3-4 trips ago when you got so pissed that we resorted to cruising the limo!!!



'92 Ford Exploder (AKA Dezert Limo cause it's loaded)

[dunerking]

Right on Fish,last time I was at Deaver I dealt with (I think)Jeff,really nice guy,anyways I would imagine that would be stock length springs or can I run something a little bite longer?Where do you get the shackles?From Jeff?

hit it hard

[drtdevil93]

read my post above.

erik

[dunerking]

Erik thanks for the help,If I were to go with the 62" springs and moved back the spring mount would I be able to keep the shocks under the bed and still have more than 12" of travel?The cantilever shocks sound sweet but sounds even more expensive,hopefully I'm wrong.What's your input on the front Total Chaos or ?Thanks for the help starting to get a good idea on what to do.Would like to have something nice to go out and take you guys on.....J/k

hit it hard

[dunerking]

Got it a little late....sorry

hit it hard

[ACID_RAIN28]

Question, if a lot of you want to run a coil over the obvious problem is that the upper are is in the way, so why hasn't anyone just relocate the rear tube and the mount on the lower arm. You don't nee a jig to do it if you have a spare cross shaft just cut the tube off make a new one that would clear tack it remove the bushing and shaft and weld it up, if it warps with all the heat just get out the torch and shrink what ever side you need to, to move it back into place, so that you counter act the warping.

I would have fiqured that especially you fish would have done this.

Do we have a rule book? A rule book, sir?
You know, a book with rules in it.

[fishd00d]

I dont get exactly what you are saying to do...Basically you would have to either make a J-arm type upper or something that would clear the coilover off the rear of the arm. To make a upper that would bolt to the stock location and clear the shock it would look pretty funny because the rear part would go WAY back and then bend in and I dont even know if it would cycle correctly.



Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[Jkrell]

I stand corrected on the 14" in the rear with stock springs....I guess 12 is all you get....Erik would know much better than I...I would still be happy with 12"...thats just me though...I'm not looking to set any track records with this truck though...just chase and prerun.

On my race truck we just put springs on it that were longer in the rear....the front half of the spring is the stock length and the rear half is extended....then only one pivot needed to be changed and we didn't have to mess with the pinion angle at all. Like I said it was good for about 14.5 " of travel.

I think you can get the bolt on 4wd shackles from downey or fabtech.

[apprentice]

Hey guy's check out www.aor4x4.com they make some really cool, and strong shackles. I used to work there before I came to school at Wyotech. We built the Fireguys Racing 7s truck and we were getting 18" out of the rear I believe with leafs and AOR's custom Bone'z shackles. They also carry all of Total Chaos kits. Their phone number is (970) 263-4300 ask for Randy he'll be able to help you out, he really knows his stuff. They can also custom make any kind of leaf spring with partner Alcan Spring you could imagine. In my opinion a highly superior spring, I haven't seen one fail in any way yet. Just some thoughts of mine, but if you give Randy a call he could help you solve your under the bed problem. They make an under the bed shock mount system that performs really well with 14" travel shocks. Check it out and and let me know what you think.
Shane
I posted an attachment w/ a couple of pics

Happiness is waking up to a job you love

[freddy]

Yes, I also think the ESB kit looks really good.

Does anyone have any experience of it?

Fredrik

[dunerking]

Does anyone have any info or a website for this ESB?So I take it nobody is into the ATS system?A friend of mine has been running those Alcan springs and is very happy with the performance and reliablity.Especially after all the problems he had with the Nationals.It would be nice to pull off 14"-15" of travel under the bed.If I had to run shocks through the bed,can you have the upper shock mount right behind the cab,or would that be to much angle on the shocks?

hit it hard

[fishd00d]

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.esbfab.com>http://www.esbfab.com</A>

I dont think you could run the shocks that far forward because the fuel tank would be in the way...also they would be at a huge angle.


Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[dunerking]

Who is Tommy Boy,and the arms you are refering to,are they for quads.I own a 90 Suzuki LT-500 but would like to hook up some +2 wider arms.Does anyone out there fab quad parts?

hit it hard

[dunerking]

Fish you are the King answer man,thanks for pointing me in the right direction! Was just checking out ESB,some ass stuff.That 5 1/2" set-up is sweet,truck looks like it works really well.After checking them out I think I will probably stick with the Total Chaos stuff just because I have used them before(a little loyality,not like it gets you anywhere),what do you guys think?

hit it hard

[jarreptolson]

Here are some photos of a shock hoop amplified performance made for some 62" springs. They are similar to what you were asking about.

[jarreptolson]

another shot

[dunerking]

That set-up there I would settle for!How does it perform,seems like a lot of the fabricator's like to keep the shock mounts just slightly forward of the axle?Do you know what Amplified gets for that set-up?Jarrett thanks for the pictures,looks sweet would go with something like that for sure if it works well.

hit it hard

[drtdevil93]

the problem with having the shocks so forward as that is it has a very unfavorable motion ratio. anymore than say 10-12 inches in front of the lower mount, and as the suspension gets closer to bottoming out, the shock gets softer and softer (the shock doesnt actually get softer, but the motion ratio reduces the shocks compression.) this is obviously wrong. if you have a bypass shock, and you set the last stage wickedly stiff, it will work, but it just isnt the right way to go.

erik

[yotatech]

i believe amplified performance is supposed to be coming out with a kit for the 4wd that uses coil over only with 4wd

[ACID_RAIN28]

Sorry if That was confusing, Run the rear upper tube in behind the coil, and if as long as it is not twisted after it is welded it should have no problem cycling, if the tube is moved J arm style it will be too much angle to be of any help, if ran behind it should still clear the fire wall, Let me think some more on this, if can't be that hard.

Do we have a rule book? A rule book, sir?
You know, a book with rules in it.

[ACID_RAIN28]

I work for Laegers and that is all I do, from race chassis to hill shooter swing arms. I am sorry to say that no one makes arms for the LT 500, reason, they are already way wide and too heavy for racing aplication, as well as no real demand for them, but we do make swing arms for them. I own an 87 LT 500 and I am in the process of making arms for it at my shop because we don't have a jig at workso I must make one.

Do we have a rule book? A rule book, sir?
You know, a book with rules in it.

[dunerking]

Drtdevil I think you have read about the set-up I'm looking to do,in your view what would be the ideal set-up for my situation?I don't plan on racing in a class or anything just would like something so I can meet some of you guys out at Octo or go to Dove Springs,go have some fun,not break anything,and not have to wear a kidney belt.We are still talking about the rar susp.The front I plan on the Total Chaos Caddy,but that Amplified coilover set-up does sound tempting if it is true.Thanks for the info.

AcidRain,I know the only people out there making those arms is Lonestar but they are claiming a price of $799 without shocks,OUCH! If you are making a set, double that order up.I'll be on a set for sure.How long are you going to go with those,I was thinking +2,but you are the pro.A swingarm would be sweet your guys stuff is top notch.What do think +1 or +2 on a swing arm,I'm not much of a hill shooter,but I do love to haul azz through those beautiful sand dunes!Thanks for help.

hit it hard

[drtdevil93]

for the frontend id say go with the total chaos setup. dont go near ATS, you'll get screwed over. for the rear, you can go with a bolt-in prerunner pack or a 62" long-travel spring. theres also a couple trucks out there that have successfully stuffed 3 or 4 links under a bed. something to consider. the front is a pretty simple decision, but the rear there are a lot of different options, it all depends what you want to do with it, and how much you are willing to spend to do it.

erik

[dunerking]

Copy that on the Total Chaos front end,wish I could go with the coilovers though.Called over to Ampified Performance about the tip on the coilover kit they were building,but he mentioned that the sand cars and 2wd stuff was keeping him to busy to worry about R&Ding a coilover kit,oh well worth the try.
As far as the rear goes all I want to be able to do is haul my quad down to Glamis,that's it.From there sky the limit.Would consider going with the 62" springs again.Checked out the rar set-up that Amp Perf. had going on,I would go with something like that,but you had mentioned about to much angle on the shocks not being good,so where does that leave me?The low towers looked pretty appealing,what is your view?The 3 or 4 link just sounds a little eo expensive for my daily driver,would be sweet though.Not to mention the front won't be coilover,not like it matters,right?Willing to spend the right amount of money for the right set-up.Thanks Erik!
By the way,do you happen to work at Deaver?

hit it hard

[ACID_RAIN28]

The way the jigs are setup is that you can have it as long as you want. As far as I know we have a +4 swing arm for the bike already made and powdered yellow that just sits there, not sure if i want it or not, I would run it and I don't shoot hills all the time, I like ruff and fast. If you are interested in the arms then I will get to a crackin on them.

Do we have a rule book? A rule book, sir?
You know, a book with rules in it.

[drtdevil93]

yes, i work at deaver. my main thing there is building the race and custom springs, doing general installs and spring work, and doing a little bit of supervising of the other workers. i try to stay away from the office and the phones and paperwork, and that crap. i think it would be possible to get about 15" with the shocks under the bed, it wouldnt be the best motion ratio in the world, but it would work.

erik

[dunerking]

Just seen a guy advertising a Total Chaos balljoint kit for $1500,is that a fair price?What will it take to mount a 2.5 shock?Should I run the Total Chaos weld on 2.5 shock hoop or should I take it some where?Which shock should I run King,SAW,Bilstein?What length shock 8" or 10"?I guess that would all depend on the shock tower,right?What about the torsions standard or 300m?What length torsions?Sorry about dragging this post on forever but getting some great info.Thanks for all the help.
P.S. should I maybe think about a bypass instead for the front?
Thanks Erik for the help with my 2wd toyota.Ihad brought in a pair of Nationals that you or Jeff message for me,ended up working out great,thanks again.That set-up that your talking about would be what I'm most likely end up liking to do.Can I set that up through you guys?
hit it hard

[ACID_RAIN28]

That is my add, it is brand damn new, never ran.

Do we have a rule book? A rule book, sir?
You know, a book with rules in it.

[drtdevil93]

yes. (714) 542-3703

erik

[dunerking]

Damn first it was the LT-500 A-arms now it is the Total Chaos front kit!I feel like a fish on the end of a line.What gives,why are you selling the kit?Going bigger?Sounds like you have all of the kit,bushings,jam nuts,tie rod extensions,brake lines,bump stops,sleeves?Do you have the T-100 axles?Frame truss?Torsion bars?Are the lower arms set-up to run a 2.5 shock?Do you have the weld on shock tower for the 2.5?
Sorry about the 20 questions,should I just give a call.If so what is the best time to get a hold of you?Very interested in the kit,especially after hearing from all the heads out there.Let me know.

hit it hard