What do we have to do to get turbos legal?

[geoff]

I have talked to a few guys who race on here and one thing that comes up is why arent turbochargers legal? A properly designed turbo system will weigh less than a bigger engine, have a better powerband, be more fuel efficient, more tunable, etc.

it just seems fiar that if a 4 cyl has to race 6 cyl trucks, they have turbos... just a thought.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[ESB4130]

i agree. i think that there should be a turbo 4cyl class. or just a turbo class altogather. i understand that alot of the classes wouldnt want to deal with turbos and stuff..but if they let us have one class for turbos and whatnot i think it would be really interesting. id sign up.

[Kritter]

1450 is your class...or run a diesel!

Kris
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.barneysprecision.com/fabproducts.htm> Fab Parts</A>

[slimjim]

i think it's a good thing that the existing classes stay with no turbos. except maybe trophy or class 1. if somebody wants to build a 4 cyl turbo motor to go up against them, i say go for it. or if there were enough people who really wanted to race with turbos, a new class might be a good idea.

put on your seatbelt...

[tedmales]

i think turbos are a good idea, but if they have a class, then why not superchargers, then why not n.o.s. it could get way complicated fast.

life is too short to be small

[geoff]

limit to one power adder. Anyone that runs nos is a retard, and superchargers will never touch a turbo's efficiency.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[fox_mccloud2000]

You know what! I think your right

If the car comes with a turbo or a supercharger. I would not mind that.
But a turbo is the way to go

-matt-

[geoff]

well it seems that a 22r is usually the only 4 cyl used in trucks, and it did come in turbo trim, the 22RTE. However that turbo used is called a CT20 and is total trash.

Replace that with either a garret t3t4 or a shwitzer/borg warner equivalent and you could safely boost power for a very long service life at a moderate boost level.

What can ranger guys get out of their 4.0s? We could always limit turbo size, although that is barely a way to ensure no one is cheating... but it seems the playing field should be leveled a little, especially in 1450 where you are racing vehicles more than twice the displacement.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[Jkrell]

geoff,

Keep talking - what kinda price range are we looking at for a decent 22re turbo motor. How "big" do you have to build the bottom end to make it last? What kind of head work is necessary to make it flow properly? Just curious. I think Vance and Erik have motors in the price range of around 5-6 k to build new and are geeting 200-220 hp. Where does that stack up price wise to a turbo motor? Thanks.

Jon

[TRDshaunTRD]

does MDR allow un-naturally aspirated motors to race 1450?

"Those who risk nothing, are nothing."

[Mike_HKmtrsprts]

turbos should have there own class!, but Geoff your wrong about the effienciency of a turbo that relies on exhaust gas to create boost where a supercharger is belt driven so the boost is always just a throttle pedal away if I was going to build a boost assisted motor for dirt racing I would use a roots style supercharger, I have built alot of turbo motors and they do run good and I have a turbo charged 13B mazda rotary in my sandcar now but a supercharger is way better cuz they make alot more low end torque where a turbo only makes power mid through top end due to turbo lag and yes you can run a smaller compressor wheel to counter act that but then you sacrafice the big HP numbers...Mike

<font color=red>The dump you take is the gold I make so I can afford to play and race!</font color=red>

[drtdevil93]

a turbo and a supercharger both make power wherever you set them up to make it. you could have your turbo hit full boost at 2000 rpm. examples: volvos new turbo motor. max torque is at 1800 rpm. saabs is about the same. also consider the torquiest motors out there: turbo diesel. a 13B is just too damn small to make torque (1.3Liter), its not because of the turbo that it doesnt have bottomend power. in terms of efficiency, a roots blower is terrible (i believe around 50% of the power made goes to turning the blower). a centrifugal supercharger is much better, about 35% of the power goes to turning it. turbochargers go as low range from 5-15%. (these are all from memory, could be a little off). think GRAND NATIONAL. just 2 weeks ago at the fontana dragstrip (which is now open on weekends, and tons of fun) the officials had to tell a guy with a grand national (which was running high 10's) to turn his AC off, cause it was dripping on the track!! the guy drove it their and back! and i know of a pinto that goes to irwindale dragstrip, drives it there and back and runs low 5's in the eighth mile. 2.3L 4cyl with LOTS of boost.

erik

[drtdevil93]

BTW- my motor was 6 with the whole fuel injection system, broken in, and everything. motor itself was about 4---.

erik

[ntsqd]

Sure that Pinto was a 2.3l ? There was a limited production turbo'd (w/ no wastegate or pop-off !) 2.0l Pinto called a "Tigra" that select dealers sold.

TS

I used swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.

[tedmales]

if turbos were better the top fuel drag cars would use them, but last time i looked the all had roots style superchargers.

life is too short to be small

[TxPhPrerunner]

Why don't top fuel cars have them? The same reason they do not use electronic fuel injection, also why NASCAR does not use electronic fuel injection, and why NASCAR does not use chromoly. Because they are outlawed by NHRA or NASCAR. Most forms of racing are not about the pure pursuit of performance but the pursuit of performance within certain rules.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[TxPhPrerunner]

I'd bet it was a 2.3. I've seen several SVO Mustang and Turbo Cupe 2.3s swapped into Pintos. I've always wondered why more people don't do that to Rangers. I think that would make a sweet setup. The TC 5sd had 205hp(easily tuned to over 250+) in 88. Take an 88 Ranger put in a TC 2.3, and there tons of options for building an 88 Ranger. But best of all for you Ca. guys, it should be a smogable swap.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[geoff]

When building the motor, it will cost barely more than a built NA motor, including the turbo. Lets take the stock toyota 22RE. This does not count for a non-efi engine, unless you convert it to efi. I have no idea how those rail guys do it, but it is possible to run boost thru a carb (just not a good idea). Head work is a great idea, but not a necessity with boost.

For a turbo motor you only need rods, pistons, head studs(not even necessary) and the turbo kit with proper fuel provisions. Some ghetto ones can work here. Use the stock cam, stock intake manifold stock valves and upgrading the valve springs is a good idea, but not absolutely necessary on low boost levels.

To build an NA motor, you get new rods and pistons, a big lift cam and heavy duty valve springs/new valves, as well as a new stroker crank (which ruins your rod to stroke ratio, increases sideloading and cylinder wall wear, decreasing ring health and engine life). Also very expensive carbs seem to be the fueling solution of choice?

With a turbo you dont need to stroke the motor, so it saves money and is easier on the engine in the higher revs. If you have the stock computer and AFM you can toy with a lot of stuff to make the system read boost and add fuel accordingly. If you have a standalone (like erik) you are already set to run boost, just put a turbo, manifold and an intercooler on and reprogram the timing maps.

I own a turbo fabrication shop, we built our own EFI system for my 22r project truck, but still using the stock ignition from the Carb setup. Soon i will go to a standalone ignition computer too, but theres just never enough time. Heres a picture of a car we recently did a turbo setup on, its the fastest honda in the country, sorry i know its not relevant i just really like it

http://www.full-race.com/jotech/jotechnew11.jpg


"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[prerunner68]

Try entering a race.
Im sure in the prerunner class its legal.
So quit the yapping and run them.
Better have a good air filter, radiator and inter cooler.
what a waste of thread space.

You did what to the truck?

[geoff]

thanks for the constructive criticism. Really, that was a huge asset to this post.

Im not a desert race, i have never even gone to a race, and you will probably never see me racing. I would just love to see some of the racers using a turbo. It seems like a waste not to embrace technology...

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[prerunner68]

Your very welcome.
Why dont you go to a race and see if it is worth running a turbo, instead of wanting others to do it.
maybe even talk to SCORE and ask them why its not legal.
Seems like all the desert organizations go off those rules.

You did what to the truck?

[TxPhPrerunner]

Most forms of racing are not about the pure pursuit of performance but the pursuit of performance within certain rules. Lean this and things will be much clearer for you. While desert racing is more open than other forms of racing it still has its restrictions. Power adders are one of those restrictions. Not because they don't work in the desert but because they make it harder to keep racing competitive. The rules, keeping them simple that is the reason.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[drtdevil93]

what geoff is trying to say is that a power adder can bring motor prices down, without really sacrificing motor life or reliability. an example: i could have put a turbo setup on my truck. total price (from stock motor) would be about 4000 bucks. same price i paid for my NA motor. difference would be simpler parts, and id have probably another 100 HP. why didnt i? i like roaring better than whistling. no real reason.

erik

[TxPhPrerunner]

I agree totally for street trucks read my post about 2.3 Rangers. Also a street legal (Prerunner) class should allow power adders esp. trubos. This would make the trucks more streetable. Big NA power tends to come to high in the power band for the street unless you stroke the motor which kills reliability and gas mileage. TT, class 1 power adders would get to expensive and be almost impossible to regulate. I really do think there should ba a class where if your truck is street legal, passes safety and is driven to the race turbos and superchargers should be legal, a daily driver class so to speak.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[robert_encinas]

if you do not race your vehicle, then dont worry about it.
if you want a turbo so bad , go race a lowered import car.

[ESB4130]

my idea is that the street legal class allow 4 cyls that have a model with a turbo (like the 22ret) to have turbos. the motor was built with turbo-charging in mind, and its not a big deal to do it really. also, v6's and v8s shoudl be allowed to have superchargers (toyota and ford build models that work good and dont give TOO high numbers to be overwhelming to the turbo 4 cyls). the idea is to bring cost down and reliablity up. you want 300 hp out of a 4 NA 4 cyl? good luck. dual side drafts, big bores, long strokes, race gas, and lots of billit stuff and titanium stuff and MAYBE youll get 300 for a few races until you have to rebuild it again, also while running 110 octane the whole time and sucking down 4 mpg. not to mention spending about 10 grand on the motor. you want 300 out of a tubo 4 cyl? pssh. no problem. put about 3 or 4 grand into the motor, run pump gas, and your motor will last alot more than a few races too. not to mention your not dealing with thin cylinder walls...huge lift cams, or ultra high compression. turbos and superchargers would definetly work fine in the 1450 class. there are all sorts of trucks that came like that stock and they dont have a huge advantage over eveyrone else, they just wouldnt have to spend so much money (which is the point of the class in the first place isnt it). ive been wanting to build a turbo 4 cyl forever, but also wanting to race my truck i was only able to keep it NA. so im stuck under 200 hp, and i cant afford to put 10 grand into a motor to get 400 hp. ive been told that nobody in 1450 would care if a 4 cyl had a turbo or a tacoma had a supercharger on it or something. but id still hate to win and have it taken away from me when someone says my truck isnt legal.

[desertracer]

I agree with your concern of getting 300 hp with 4 cylinder n/a. In our car we are running a 4 banger, getting like 330hp and 300 torque with fuel injection, 110 fuel, all the billet & titanium parts, while getting like 6 mpg. Just like the scat v-4 these motors aren't cheap upwards of 30 grand so the average pre-runner wouldn't want/ need one. A turbo/ supercharger would be the cheap and easy way to get hp, just don't know if another class needs to be added. Like what has been said before why do we need to water down more entries with more classes. Just run 1450 and be happy with that or get into 7s or something similar.

MDR #112

[fishd00d]

Noone is going to say anything if you run 1450....bring it!

Go Big Or Go Home
United Jumping Truck Society

[Jerry Zaiden]

Talked to Patricia and ART they said NO TURBOS OR SUPERCHARGERS... That is the lamest thing I have ever heard. I can go spend $10K on a 4.0L v6 and run it but I can't spend $3000 and supercharge it. Keep in mind the $10K in a 4.0 v6 is not street legal but the supercharger is :)

[WFODAN]

Jerry ,

Like I've said numerous times in the past ........... Just bring it out and run it . They aren't going to say you can't race if you don't show them . Noone will protest you in 1450 . Look at the entries as they are now ........ V8s in mini trucks , race motors in others ............ Who cares run it !! We don't protest each other because nobody really cares shat you run . We are there to race !!!! Not cry !! If we asked if a V8 is street legal in a mini we would be told...... NO ! If we asked if dual carbs are street legal we'd once again be told ..... NO!! 1450 has become the true racers class . It's not the crybabies class . If you want to run a turbo or supercharger then run it . WE WON'T PROTEST ANYONE !!! We welcome all competition . In other words ......... BRING IT !!!


Dan Vance

[deleted]

This idea is pathetic and dangerous. At the present time suspension and design are not capable of holding up to much more power. I am not one to stop innovation but having to race class 1 or trophy truck and need to have over 1000 horsepower to compete would not be very much fun or cost effective for 3 points.

First: To develop parts that would hold up on a high horsepower motor, much more money would need to be spent. The fewer dollars you spent on building a motor would go away very fast when the prep bills were paid for other drivetrain components. As it is right now, there are few high horsepower class 1's and trophy trucks that havent been having transmission problems.

Second: I havent driven a lot of fast race cars but i have driven enough to know when you want to go fast you are on the edge. A turbo charger would give you so much power that you would go over the edge very fast. I have heard very notable Trophy Truck and Class 1 drivers say that when they are running 100% it is so fast its scary and they dont want to go any faster.

Third: If Turbo chargers were permitted it would make chassis designers build very light way race cars. These light weight cars would probably be very nimble over the bumps, but when they crashed it would be brutal.

PS- I raced the Ford Excursion with a the Turbo Power Stroke Diesel the past 2 years, but that type of turbo is a must if you want to run a Diesel.

Matt Scaroni
SMD Motorsports
Flat-Bill Up

[drtdevil93]

a motor is whatever you build it to be. you can build a 750 HP turbo motor for half the price of a NA 750 HP, and its simpler components, easier prep, etc. rally cars seem to be doing pretty good with them. like geoff said, instead of having extremely expensive nascar valvetrain, stuff you can buy at most speed shops (comp, isky, etc.) will work. instead of way needing way expensive heads, you can use AFR, dart, brodix. much cheaper, readily available.
remember: the only replacement for displacement is technology.

erik

[ACID_RAIN28]

I couldn't imagine a turbo desert car that would be cheap, that thing would be in permenant spool and just cooking it and everthing around it, think about in the 12 hours of constant spool, rings- dust, and the potential fire hazard is extreme, and it would cost tons of money just in insulation and cooler just to keep the temp and intake charger under controll, unless the driver had an adjstable waste gate so that it can be pumped for heavy loads, hmmm.

Do we have a rule book? A rule book, sir?
You know, a book with rules in it.

[geoff]

i dont know about pathetic and dangerous... an engine will put out as much power as you set it to.

im not trying to kill anyone, simply stating that engines could be built to be more reliable, just as powerful, if not more powerful, not tuned to the ragged edge of blowing, more fuel efficient, and have a nice powerband for less then a high power NA motor.

regardless of power output, say you have a 700hp NA motor and a 700 hp turbo motor, the turbo motor will live longer, assuming the same block and heads are used. Also you wont have to rev it as high.

"Third: If Turbo chargers were permitted it would make chassis designers build very light way race cars. These light weight cars would probably be very nimble over the bumps, but when they crashed it would be brutal."


huh? why are they gonna build very light way race cars? It seems they would do this with an NA motor before they do with a turbo motor. When drag racing, the NA weight limit is much less than the turbo weight limit for a reason. I really dont think most of you guys see the point here..

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[Jerry Zaiden]

I think it would come down to this. More power = less reliable. As it is most of these cars can't stay together. So I do not see how power would even help win races. I do know it would help design stronger parts. I do see the team on a budget wanting more power and adding a SC or a turbo just to "TRY" and compete. A V8 TT engine is around $30-50K. A SC motor with the same Hp would be around $15-20K. Now what would be better I don't know. All I do know is that to be competitive in any class you need to spend big dollars on a motor program.

[drtdevil93]

i bet 10 years ago people were saying a trans could never hold up to 700 horsepower for 1000 off road miles. the point thats not getting accross is this: not to add turbos to get more power than the motors have now, but to add them to a much milder motor to get the same power for a lot less money.
will it hold up? only one way to find out. i am sure however than those little turbo rally cars are lasting just fine, and i think they get a little dirty dont they? Those are small motors running on the ragged edge, too. the motor i envision is mild in every way, including price and maintenance.

erik

[TxPhPrerunner]

Excellent idea! One I would love to see work, but unless it's a spec engine (which takes all the fun out of building the engine) I don't see any way to make it work.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[RacerX]

Everyone talks about putting a turbo on the cars and getting them legal. Why dont you worry about driving first.
To finish first, you first must finish.
Lets get John Force's funny car and put some 37's on it and race class 1.

[drtdevil93]

and to finish, you must have a reliable motor.

erik

[TxPhPrerunner]

To this point I have been commenting as a bystander, but I'd like to make a suggestion. I understand that adding a class is a bad idea, so how about getting a group of racers together and presenting this idea as a group. Request a trial rule change allowing a single power adder (turbo or super charger) on a motor built with off the shelf parts. No custom grind cams, street legal intakes and heads and stock stroke. Nothing on the motor the average joe could not buy at his local parts shop or off the internet. If it makes for affordable racing keep the change and try it in other classes if not ditch it. What do you guys think???

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.

[geoff]

that pretty much seems like a damn good idea. particularly when you could even use factory parts. If alot of the racers get away from carbs and towards efi, not only will they make a bit more power, but reliability and fuel efficiency will go through the roof.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka