Debating Owl Goron

[pjc]

This is funny. We did the same to Goron in 2000 on ORC, albeit sans the convenience of YouTube.
http://www.superhunky.com/goreview.html

The Goracle Debates

Wouldn't it be fun to watch Al Gore attempt to defend his preposterous lies (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/10/al_gore_and_his.html) against scientists who have too much integrity to take part in the global warming scam? It's not going to happen (http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=20873) but DemandDebate.com (http://demanddebate.com/) has provided the next best thing by creating a video that pits the Goracle against people who actually know what they're talking about.

Explains executive director Steve Milloy (http://prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-04-2007/0004676061&EDATE):
Al Gore has refused multiple invitations to debate in-person about global warming. So we've decided to let video of his previous remarks do the talking for him. In case you missed it, here's the Goracle versus the experts on the topic of whether CO2 really drives global temperature — an allegation for which there is no evidence whatsoever:

YouTube - Al Gore Debates Global Warming

It is not CO2 that produces warmth, but the reverse. Since life likes warmth, and life produces CO2, the warmer it gets, the more animals there are, the more CO2 is in the air. This is why rises in CO2 levels lag behind rises in temperature by 800 years.
In light of this fact, the entire global warming farce collapses. So the fact is simply ignored.

Moonbattery.com.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Very Interesting. Do you know what BBC documentary was it based on?

The edited parts are hideous, but I would like to see the whole documentary. Still I wouldn't have the expertise to refute such technical arguments, (I don't think anyone here has such credentials) Maybe in this same documentary the BBC was kind enough to provide both sides of the coin.....who knows?

Calling it a debate was sort of cheap, since it was not a regulated discussion by any means, still interesting though.

[pjc]

Calling it a debate was sort of cheap, since it was not a regulated discussion by any means, still interesting though.


Wouldn't it be nice if Owl Goron would actually step up to debate?

[Infidel Racing Team]

Wouldn't it be nice if Owl Goron would actually step up to debate?

It would, but it in all fairness, it would have to be a politician, not scientist. He does not have any expertise or credentials what so ever in the technicalities of the issue.

Hansen vs Akasofu would be a good one.

I still think that Al Gore would win a debate against any politician on the subject, not because he stance on the issue, but because he happens to be a very good debater and he has been on this issue for a long time.....still I am only speculating

[pjc]

It would, but it in all fairness, it would have to be a politician, not scientist. He does not have any expertise or credentials what so ever in the technicalities of the issue.


MMM.. Owl is more of a financier these days. I say, put a debate togather between opposing teams, say 3-4 on each from any area of expertise And, do include J. Hansen.

[Infidel Racing Team]

MMM.. Owl is more of a financier these days. I say, put a debate togather between opposing teams, say 3-4 on each from any area of expertise And, do include J. Hansen.

That would be brilliant, I agree. In a sense they are "debating" already through scientific papers, I am still open minded to hear a better explanation, meanwhile I want to hear the complete BBC documentary where these scientist explain in layman terms their difference of opinion. Seems like it would be time well spent

[scott-dsms]

He does not have any expertise or credentials what so ever in the technicalities of the issue.

Exactly! Case closed...dude needs to sit down enjoy his life and shut the hell up!

Al Gore giving speeches about anytyhing but being a sheister, much less Global warming makes about as much sense as me giving speeches on how to cure cancer.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Exactly! Case closed...dude needs to sit down enjoy his life and shut the hell up!



Well, Its a free country......The dude can do whatever he wants, its up to us to listen or just change the channel...:D

Right?

[scott-dsms]

Well, Its a free country......The dude can do whatever he wants, its up to us to listen or just change the channel...:D

Right?

Wrong - Al Gore passes himself off as someone who knows what the hell he's talking about. He entered the realm of science all by himself so why is it unfair for him to debate with a scientist. You said it yourself he has zero credentials or knowledge about the 'technicalities' of the issue....WTH! Isn't science all about 'technicalities'? :confused: Even on this forum between all us pals...supporting evidence is required to back up what we say. Somehow Al Gore gets a pass? Dude needs an butt whoopin for being a liar and sheister.

[pappawheely]

That's the problem nowadays science has been corupted with politics. Opinion should not enter into it. It used to be hypothesis now it is politics and money. Grants should not have a political litmus test.

[Infidel Racing Team]

That's the problem nowadays science has been corupted with politics. Opinion should not enter into it. It used to be hypothesis now it is politics and money. Grants should not have a political litmus test.

To a point .....Remember that this is such a complex problem that at this moment there is no definitive answer to the problem. There are huge gaps in all the current hypothesis, that people with a vested interest could exploit to their favor.

Everyday those gaps grow smaller, I guess it is OK to hold judgment until all the evidence and gaps have been fixed....In the meantime it takes skepticism and common sense for us the non-scientists to direct our lives in correct manner.

To me it is common sense that currently we haven't been the best administrators of our impact on nature.....cleaning our act a little is common sense and saves $ in some cases, then again, that its just my personal opinion.

[dan200]

Well, Its a free country......The dude can do whatever he wants, its up to us to listen or just change the channel...:D

Right?

Gustavo, the problem is it is on every channel. It is presented as the gospel truth. You are always willing to debate your arguments.:) Al Gore does not.:mad:

He uses a tactic my nanny used with me when I was a little kid and asked the question "Why?" too much. "Because I said so" is not an argument. Even if his ethics were in the right place, he stands to make lots of money as environmentalism flourishes. This fact he never speaks of.

He won't debate because his side is so full of self serving bias and holes he would get shredded within minutes.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Gustavo, the problem is it is on every channel. It is presented as the gospel truth. You are always willing to debate your arguments.:) Al Gore does not.:mad:

He uses a tactic my nanny used with me when I was a little kid and asked the question "Why?" too much. "Because I said so" is not an argument. Even if his ethics were in the right place, he stands to make lots of money as environmentalism flourishes. This fact he never speaks of.

He won't debate because his side is so full of self serving bias and holes he would get shredded within minutes.

I agree on how this is all business as usual for Al Gore. Sometimes I wished someone not as controversial would have picked the subject up.....but Oh, well....I think who ever picked this subject from any walk of life would have been creamed and question about his / her intentions....

Too many interests and money to be lost and made how ever the pendulum swings.

That is a blessing and a curse in an economy as powerful as the US, In any rate....Yep, I hate any professional politician , I could never be a true friend to any one involved in politics, specially in high levels

[pappawheely]

I agree on how this is all business as usual for Al Gore. Sometimes I wished someone not as controversial would have picked the subject up.....but Oh, well....I think who ever picked this subject from any walk of life would have been creamed and question about his / her intentions....

Too many interests and money to be lost and made how ever the pendulum swings.

That is a blessing and a curse in an economy as powerful as the US, In any rate....Yep, I hate any professional politician , I could never be a true friend to any one involved in politics, specially in high levels

If they would be reasonable I wouldn't have a problem with it. Everyone wants to have a clean healthy environment. All the global warming jihadist's want to do is punish everyone, take away freedoms and grab more of our money. I have posed the question many times without a response "how will giving more money to politicians do anything to control the temperature of the planet?" The answer is, it won't. It's just another socialist vehicle to wage warfare on the masses. Cap and trade programs do nothing except add a revenue enhancement step to every transaction. All the politicians do all day is dream up ways to impose their power against us. When was the last time you heard of a law passed that actually benefited you? In California the legislators agenda is more rights for non-citizens, non-workers, child molesters and criminals.

[Infidel Racing Team]

...When was the last time you heard of a law passed that actually benefited you? In California the legislators agenda is more rights for non-citizens, non-workers, child molesters and criminals.

Well not all is bad, CARB legislation (at a time I was very familiar with it) is admired all over the world and it is considered Avant garde. Be proud, some of the stuff is really well thought :)

[pappawheely]

Well not all is bad, CARB legislation (at a time I was very familiar with it) is admired all over the world and it is considered Avant garde. Be proud, some of the stuff is really well thought :)

Admired by who? Chavez, Putin, whackmadinijad? They keep trying to legislate my musclecar out of existence for being a gross polluter when I only drive it about 200 miles a year.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Admired by who? Chavez, Putin, whackmadinijad? They keep trying to legislate my musclecar out of existence for being a gross polluter when I only drive it about 200 miles a year.

Mike,

CARB used to grandfather all those cars back in 1998-2000. They just don't let the new manufacturers produce new muscle cars with those specs anymore.

Maybe the rules have change drastically in 10 years, are they limiting the use of your muscle car? 3 years ago I cruised in one to LA and no one gave me any trouble....But maybe I was lucky not to get stop by the green police or something:rolleyes:

Back in 1998, the Germans were almost as stringent as CARB, I know they based much of their legislation mirroring CARB standards....Japan also, they keep up with CARB in order to be able to sell cars in Cali

[pappawheely]

Gustavo, Every year a new legislator tries to gain favor from the greenies by revoking the annual smog check exemption for older cars. Everyone knows that these older cars are not driven much and have very little impact on air quality. The issue becomes original equipment. My car has very few original parts left on it and would be almost impossible to bring back to pure factory specs. The parts are no longer available. That is the BS part of the carb laws. If they were truly concerned with clean air then a simple emissions test would suffice. Instead they have restrictions on aftermarket parts that can be installed. Parts have to go through testing and be approved for use. The approval process costs the manufacturer thousands of dollars that are then passed along to consumers. The process is just another way for the state to get it's hands on more of our money. This has to be defeated EVERY YEAR. Most of the time the legislation is proposed by someone who just got elected in some liberal district. Enough is enough. I am all for clean air but I am tired of ineffective sybolism to appease the environmental nazi's.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Gustavo, Every year a new legislator tries to gain favor from the greenies by revoking the annual smog check exemption for older cars. Everyone knows that these older cars are not driven much and have very little impact on air quality. The issue becomes original equipment. My car has very few original parts left on it and would be almost impossible to bring back to pure factory specs. The parts are no longer available. That is the BS part of the carb laws. If they were truly concerned with clean air then a simple emissions test would suffice. Instead they have restrictions on aftermarket parts that can be installed. Parts have to go through testing and be approved for use. The approval process costs the manufacturer thousands of dollars that are then passed along to consumers. The process is just another way for the state to get it's hands on more of our money. This has to be defeated EVERY YEAR. Most of the time the legislation is proposed by someone who just got elected in some liberal district. Enough is enough. I am all for clean air but I am tired of ineffective sybolism to appease the environmental nazi's.


Having several modified cars myself I empathize with the situation. Most my restomods were intentionally modified so I could go FAST not GREEN

Having been involved many years on vehicle emissions, I also understand that any of my cars can pollute as much as 50X on NOx levels than newer cars.....

Is it fair to everyone else? In a strict sense of justice I think not....It is true, I dont use them much, but who would know that? How can that be monitored?

As far as they are concern I could be using it as a Daily Driver, right?

I suppose a middle point would be having a temper proof milage meter to demonstrate the point and get a GREEN PASS every year. I guess that would be fair to everybody else who has to comply and pay big bucks for their emissions equipment.

What else could it be done? I dont think doing nothing would be fair , whats your thoughts?

[EQuin]

Somewhat on topic - a relatively recent, interesting report on the issue from NOAA, a government agency under the Executive Branch:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

[pappawheely]

Having several modified cars myself I empathize with the situation. Most my restomods were intentionally modified so I could go FAST not GREEN

Having been involved many years on vehicle emissions, I also understand that any of my cars can pollute as much as 50X on NOx levels than newer cars.....

Is it fair to everyone else? In a strict sense of justice I think not....It is true, I dont use them much, but who would know that? How can that be monitored?

As far as they are concern I could be using it as a Daily Driver, right?

I suppose a middle point would be having a temper proof milage meter to demonstrate the point and get a GREEN PASS every year. I guess that would be fair to everybody else who has to comply and pay big bucks for their emissions equipment.

What else could it be done? I dont think doing nothing would be fair , whats your thoughts?

My thoughts are to come up with real solutions instead of legislating against a fart in a hurricane. Politicians just go after the easy target. Gun crime? restrict the law abiding while doing nothing about the criminals. It's the same with everything. Your scenario scares the hell out of me Gustavo. Whatever happened to personal freedom? Last time I checked I have broken no laws. Soon we will all be criminals if the politicians continue trying to control every aspect of our lives. You are also operating under the assumption that man made global warming is real, I don't share that belief and if you are honest you can't prove me wrong, right?

[Infidel Racing Team]

My thoughts are to come up with real solutions instead of legislating against a fart in a hurricane. Politicians just go after the easy target. Gun crime? restrict the law abiding while doing nothing about the criminals. It's the same with everything. Your scenario scares the hell out of me Gustavo. Whatever happened to personal freedom? Last time I checked I have broken no laws. Soon we will all be criminals if the politicians continue trying to control every aspect of our lives. You are also operating under the assumption that man made global warming is real, I don't share that belief and if you are honest you can't prove me wrong, right?

Forget CO2 emissions for a second.....NOx emissions are quite toxic, they do poison our atmosphere. I have witness the effects of NOx in human beings while I worked in a maquiladora who had not taken all the health precautions.

NOx causes acid rain and many other very toxic compounds to humans.....even the dangerous ground Ozone....

So, not everything relates to GW....emissions are much more complex than just greenhouse gases.....I intentionally have tuned my Mustang a bit on the lean side, without the catalytic converter along some other mods I get 10HP more, but I pollute 50X the allowed standards....anyway the 1998 standards:D

I know freedom is essential, but I think freedom should stop once I step on other people rights....their right to have a clean air.....

Externality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality) management is a complex matter, but my views on it are probably very unpopular in a motor sport forum.....;)
.

I don't share that belief and if you are honest you can't prove me wrong, right?

Personally I cant prove anything, I lack the ability, the intelligence and the knowledge. I dislike repeating an argument Ad Nauseum and think I have persuaded people by just repeating it.....
So to answer your question, No I Cant.
I tend to think GW is a real threat although I hate the catastrophism cult of it......I base this on basic common sense, intuition and a very limited understanding of the science behind it.....But that is just me