World Court: Stop Executing Mexicans

[scott-dsms]

WTH...Since when do we follow orders from other countries regarding execution of murderers? Murders that took place here in the US comitted by foreign nationals. If you don't like our laws then stay out of our country. Check out the piece of work that this story relates to. Dude brutally raped and murdered two 15 yr old girls.

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — The U.N.'s highest court ordered U.S. authorities on Wednesday to do everything possible to halt the executions of five Mexicans in Texas until their cases are reviewed.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,383702,00.html

We are the only country that molly-coddles foreigners in every aspect of American life, not just crime...Why do we let others walk all over us and now...apparently dictate how we will dispense with justice?

[racer951]

...We are the only country that molly-coddles foreigners in every aspect of American life, not just crime...

There are probably others, but Canada and England are certainly just as guilty of this as we are.

[Infidel Racing Team]

I wont defend a allege criminal, but please be objective about the reason why they are asking this:

The World Court told U.S. authorities in 2004 to review the cases of 51 Mexicans sentenced to death by state courts after finding they had been denied the right to seek help from consular officials.

This is an atrocity in itself, If you are denied of your embassy to provide you deference, translation services etc, then I think it is only fair to review their cases.

No one is asking for mercy, forgiveness or laxity in the rules....just fairness.

Worldwide it is accepted that a foreign citizen may ask their consular offices for assistance in his/her defense.

When an American gets in trouble here, (trust me , spring breakers and sex tourists often do) the 1st thing is they are offered a way to communicate with their consular office.....It is only fair.

Texas is notoriously uncivilized against illegal aliens, they do need to comply if they want the same courtesy extended to them.

[dan200]

I guy picked a fight with me in RP. I knew if I accepted his challenge i would surely be arrested so I tried to explain that this was a mistake and if he wanted to meet up on the US side of the line I would be more than happy to oblige him. He declined my offer and backed away.

Several beers later I get sucker punched coming out of the bathroom. We both end up in jail. The only right I had was the right of giving all my money and some of my friends money to the police. Total BS

[scott-dsms]

I wont defend a allege criminal, but please be objective about the reason why they are asking this:

The World Court told U.S. authorities in 2004 to review the cases of 51 Mexicans sentenced to death by state courts after finding they had been denied the right to seek help from consular officials.

This is an atrocity in itself, If you are denied of your embassy to provide you deference, translation services etc, then I think it is only fair to review their cases.

No one is asking for mercy, forgiveness or laxity in the rules....just fairness.

Worldwide it is accepted that a foreign citizen may ask their consular offices for assistance in his/her defense.

When an American gets in trouble here, (trust me , spring breakers and sex tourists often do) the 1st thing is they are offered a way to communicate with their consular office.....It is only fair.

Texas is notoriously uncivilized against illegal aliens, they do need to comply if they want the same courtesy extended to them.

Nothing ALLEGED about it Mr. Infidel - Dude was tried and CONVICTED of rape and murder of two minors - There is no question about this...or the others...Put'em on ICE...Consular shmonsular...Oh and not getting to consult with the consular doesn't change the evidence that convicted them in the first place. Nothing more than useless smoke/mirrors/political posturing etc...bottom line...BS.

You are always so quick to defend these monsters bro...What gives? Just wondering. I hope and pray that you are never victimized by one such as this, and what about the rights of the 2 girls raped and murdered, their families and friends...Those are the people I care about, not this piece of trash.

[Infidel Racing Team]

I guy picked a fight with me in RP. I knew if I accepted his challenge i would surely be arrested so I tried to explain that this was a mistake and if he wanted to meet up on the US side of the line I would be more than happy to oblige him. He declined my offer and backed away.

Several beers later I get sucker punched coming out of the bathroom. We both end up in jail. The only right I had was the right of giving all my money and some of my friends money to the police. Total BS

As I said ....Spring breakers and Sex Tourists:D j/k Danny. Surely after a few beers and a close altercation with a local the best judgment wasn't exercised by bot parties, right?

[Infidel Racing Team]

Nothing ALLEGED about it Mr. Infidel - Dude was tried and CONVICTED of rape and murder of two minors - There is no question about this...or the others...Put'em on ICE...Consular shmonsular...Oh and not getting to consult with the consular doesn't change the evidence that convicted them in the first place. Nothing more than useless smoke/mirrors/political posturing etc...bottom line...BS.

You are always so quick to defend these monsters bro...What gives? Just wondering. I hope and pray that you are never victimized by one such as this, and what about the rights of the 2 girls raped and murdered, their families and friends...Those are the people I care about, not this piece of trash.

Scott,

I dont the specifics about this case, but when someone lacks a language skill you can get caught easily....

You are assuming the evidence collected and many other things were conclusive, as long as there is no consular assistance there is room for doubt......What happen to having a fair trial? Trust me ...not in Texas, where I have witness and I have being a target of gross racism by the authorities with no reason...

Hey, If OJ or MI were not guilty, then surely some of the 51 must be tried with so much bias & negligence.....specially in Texas.

[Vtr_Racing]

I wont defend a allege criminal, but please be objective about the reason why they are asking this:

The World Court told U.S. authorities in 2004 to review the cases of 51 Mexicans sentenced to death by state courts after finding they had been denied the right to seek help from consular officials.

Texas is notoriously uncivilized against illegal aliens, they do need to comply if they want the same courtesy extended to them.
I have no problem with what they do in Texas. Theres lots more going on between Dallas and Brownsville thats no Mexican National that I know would condone. If the guy gets the death penalty, he was convicted by US law, just as an American would be sent to pretty much die in a mexican jail for doing the same thing. The Hague has no business intervening.

[Infidel Racing Team]

If the guy gets the death penalty, he was convicted by US law, just as an American would be sent to pretty much die in a mexican jail for doing the same thing. The Hague has no business intervening.

There is no death penalty in Mexico, even my screwed up country has that right....
Maybe you have a gut feeling Mexico reciprocates in the same manner with US criminals, we don't....most of the time we extradite them under the petition of the US embassy.

As in Danny's case only spring breakers get sometimes the shaft, but in most cases its well deserved.

As for an American dying in a Mexican Jail....Well, It could happen (if they have some medical condition) but if it is decided he stays in Mexico it is always with the involvement of their consulate and to a certain extent their consent.

By no means I imply the Mexican system is perfect, or even acceptable, but never an arrested foreign citizen is denied of their consular rights.....That is unheard and quite uncivilized even for Kenya.

[Vtr_Racing]

There is no death penalty in Mexico, even my screwed up country has that right....


Thats your business for your country. Good for you.

[scott-dsms]

If the guy gets the death penalty, he was convicted by US law, just as an American would be sent to pretty much die in a mexican jail for doing the same thing. The Hague has no business intervening.

What's with all the illegals marching in the streets DEMANDING no less, their RIGHTS and to be afforded all the same freedoms and liberties that legal citizens enjoy, but want NONE of the responsibility that goes with it.

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.....don't do it"

[scott-dsms]

Scott,

I dont the specifics about this case, but when someone lacks a language skill you can get caught easily....

You are assuming the evidence collected and many other things were conclusive, as long as there is no consular assistance there is room for doubt......What happen to having a fair trial? Trust me ...not in Texas, where I have witness and I have being a target of gross racism by the authorities with no reason...

Hey, If OJ or MI were not guilty, then surely some of the 51 must be tried with so much bias & negligence.....specially in Texas.

You say lacking a language skill like it's some sort of 'trap' the unsuspecting illegal has been snared in...WT..Trust me he had a taxpayer funded lawyer that spoke spanish Language barrier my A - Next

I guess there has to be some level of assumption on every case that the evidence was collected properly unless of course there is evidence to the contrary. I would assume the same for any defendant...Otherwise you are then calling the character and integrity of the arresting officers and investigators into question. By your argument EVERY case that has ever been tried would be called into question. More smoke and mirrors.

Keep in mind this one particular guy has been in prison for 15 YEARS for those murders. Their families have to live with this daily. Their nightmare will never end.

In China as soon as the gavel falls, (if you even get a trial) they drag you out the door and put one in the back of your head. END of STORY - Why doesn't the 'World Court' tell them what to do? OH yeah, I almost forgot...CHINA doesn't give a Rat's A what the 'World Court' says.

Does anyone else have a problem with the whole concept of a "World Court"? NWO?

[Infidel Racing Team]

What's with all the illegals marching in the streets DEMANDING no less, their RIGHTS and to be afforded all the same freedoms and liberties that legal citizens enjoy, but want NONE of the responsibility that goes with it.

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.....don't do it"

I guess it deviates from the original point, but I agree with you, they dont deserve all the rights of a citizen, but they do deserve some human rights rgadless of their nationality....dont you think?

[scott-dsms]

I guess it deviates from the original point, but I agree with you, they dont deserve all the rights of a citizen, but they do deserve some human rights rgadless of their nationality....dont you think?

Yes I do - You talk about America's 'Human Rights" like it's Darfur or something dude. This guy has been housed, clothed, fed, etc etc etc on the taxpayer dime for years and you say that he deserves some human rights like he hasn't been afforded that. Meeting with some suit that happens to be from your homeland doesn't change EVIDENCE.

In Darfur they hack you to pieces with a machete for being a christian...Where's the 'World Court'? Bro...I would think that the beloved UN would have bigger fish to fry than little ol America. Geez - Oh that's right they are too busy stealing MY money pretending to feed the poor of the world.

To be fair I think about 7 UN peace keepers have been murdered recently in Darfur. I am not railing against the individuals, boots on the ground people, but rather the institution (UN) at the higher levels. Human debris. /rant

p.s. Yes that post did deviate from the topic, but I was agreeing/responding to VTR and I started the thread so I figured I had some leeway when posting.

[twillis]

The U.N.'s highest court ordered U.S. authorities on Wednesday to do everything possible to halt the executions of five Mexicans in Texas until their cases are reviewed.
[/I]



Or what? They gonna stop sending over clogs? Declare war on Texas?

I don't see what leverage they have. Besides, they were convicted, unanimously. As in "we the jury have no doubt you are guilty and you deserve to die". Just like the six hundred-plus others in California currently on Death Row (for crimes committed as much as 20 years ago). Doesn't that count any more?

[Stimpy]

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — The U.N.'s highest court ordered U.S. authorities on Wednesday to do everything possible to halt the executions of five Mexicans in Texas until their cases are reviewed.


" Screw them throw the switch! "

Its not a racial thing. I would take this stand on any slime bag that hurts a child!!

[gunit]

F**k the UN and the World court. We have no business dealing with either of them.
The two men were convicted where the crimes occurred by the same rules and procedures that applied to all others. The fact that Mexico does not have the death penalty or that the world court does not approve is totally irrelevant.

[Bulldozer]

When an American gets in trouble here, (trust me , spring breakers and sex tourists often do) the 1st thing is they are offered a way to communicate with their consular office....


Hahahaha yea riiiiiggght.

[scary fast hummer]

I hate to tell you guys, but Infidel is spot on the money; consular access is international law.

What makes America a GREAT nation, not just good one, or better than most, but in my humble opinion the greatest nation on earth and worth dying for, is that we respect the rule of law.

And not just the rules we like. All of them, all the time. No excuses. And if we don't, shame on us and then we fix it.

If the great state of Texas f'd it up then those cases do need to be reviewed. Probably won't change anything, but none the less, the forms need to me followed. And just to be utterly clear on this one point, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT ANY OTHER COUNTRY DOES. (If your unsure how I feel about this, pm me and I'll try to explain myself better ;)) The only thing that matters in life is what you do. Honor is not subjective.

/drill seargent lecture:o

[DEZERTSUB]

F**k the UN and the World court. We have no business dealing with either of them.
The two men were convicted where the crimes occurred by the same rules and procedures that applied to all others. The fact that Mexico does not have the death penalty or that the world court does not approve is totally irrelevant.

Gustavo makes some valid points I will admit.

But I agree with the statement above 100%.

[Infidel Racing Team]

I hate to tell you guys, but Infidel is spot on the money; consular access is international law.

What makes America a GREAT nation, not just good one, or better than most, but in my humble opinion the greatest nation on earth and worth dying for, is that we respect the rule of law.

And not just the rules we like. All of them, all the time. No excuses. And if we don't, shame on us and then we fix it.

If the great state of Texas f'd it up then those cases do need to be reviewed. Probably won't change anything, but none the less, the forms need to me followed. And just to be utterly clear on this one point, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT ANY OTHER COUNTRY DOES. (If your unsure how I feel about this, pm me and I'll try to explain myself better ;)) The only thing that matters in life is what you do. Honor is not subjective.

/drill seargent lecture:o

Thank you.

In 1963 The United States signed a treaty during the Vienna Convention.

That agreement says that when people are arrested abroad, they have a right to have access to consular officials from their own country.

That treaty protects Americans too. Americans under arrest in a foreign country have the right to access American consular officials because of treaty obligations. But if the United States ignores those obligations, so can foreign countries.

The US is the most powerful country on the world. Asserting its sovereignty by shrugging off treaty obligations doesn’t befit a world power. Nor does it befit a nation that asserts that the rule of law is one of its guiding principles to break a treaty that it expects other nations to honor.........

If the cases are reviewed (highly unlikely) I suppose the outcome should not be very different unless there is a clear and obvious mishandling of the evidence presented.

Those Mexican citizens should face the law and pay if guilty, but let the US honor all of its treaties first.:)

[twillis]

consular access is international law.





What exactly makes it international? Did the entire world vote on that law? They send out 6 billion ballots? I look in my mailbox every day, nobody asked for my opinion on crimes in Texas or anywhere else. There shouldn't even be an international STANDARD for punishment, because with all the different cultures, languages, religions and traditions, no one would ever agree anyway.
Today, some countries use firing squads, while the mook nations in the middle east behead criminals. Modern China is very efficient; they use one round to the head, then bill the families for the bullet, then harvest the organs. In the past rural families in China routinely drowned newborn girls because they preferred to raise boys. Some ancient cultures like the Mayans used to toss kids off a cliff just to see if they could get their gods to make it rain. California's desert tribes like the Chumash would take their sick and elderly out to places like Death Valley and leave them to face the elements. To this day you don't hear about "war crimes" or "reparations" or any of that sillyness for all those innocent victims. And Uganda's Idi Amin used to execute people with a sledgehammer. All the laws in all the books in all the world never stopped any of that, did it?
International law is an abstract concept, it is not reality. Reality is, real people kill other real people every minute of every hour of every day. A guy in a court in the Netherlands trying to change that fact is like a fart in a hurricane.

[Infidel Racing Team]

What exactly makes it international? Did the entire world vote on that law? They send out 6 billion ballots? I look in my mailbox every day, nobody asked for my opinion on crimes in Texas or anywhere else. There shouldn't even be an international STANDARD for punishment, because with all the different cultures, languages, religions and traditions, no one would ever agree anyway.
Today, some countries use firing squads, while the mook nations in the middle east behead criminals. Modern China is very efficient; they use one round to the head, then bill the families for the bullet, then harvest the organs. In the past rural families in China routinely drowned newborn girls because they preferred to raise boys. Some ancient cultures like the Mayans used to toss kids off a cliff just to see if they could get their gods to make it rain. California's desert tribes like the Chumash would take their sick and elderly out to places like Death Valley and leave them to face the elements. To this day you don't hear about "war crimes" or "reparations" or any of that sillyness for all those innocent victims. And Uganda's Idi Amin used to execute people with a sledgehammer. All the laws in all the books in all the world never stopped any of that, did it?
International law is an abstract concept, it is not reality. Reality is, real people kill other real people every minute of every hour of every day. A guy in a court in the Netherlands trying to change that fact is like a fart in a hurricane.


No one said it was democratic....It is international because Many countries willingly agreed to it , including the USA.....Your representatives didn’t think it was convenient to ask you personally that is why you never got anything on the mail, they signed on behalf of your country.

That document states:

Article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations requires that foreign nationals who are arrested or detained be given notice "without delay" of their right to have their embassy or consulate notified of that arrest. The notice to the consulate can be as simple as a fax, giving the person's name, the place of arrest, and, if possible, something about the reason for the arrest or detention. If the detained foreign national so requests, the police must fax that notice to the embassy or consulate, which can then check up on the person.

Further more Mexico & The US have ratified the VCCR and "relied as principal basis for the conduct of its consular activities"
Source:http://travel.state.gov/law/consular/consular_744.html

The supreme court ruling this past March is just an excuse why the Federation has not yet implemented laws to force states such as Texas into compliance.

This is not a cultural issue it is a highly detail protocol in handling foreign criminals, your cultural comparison is inadequate.

Why sign a treaty and expect everybody to follow it except you? That is why many people think today’s US foreign policy is the root of most of the US problems abroad.

For 1 second take your US citizen cap, and think of this in terms of a British citizen as an example…..This is very short sighted by the US policy makers and it will backfire on their citizens abroad.

[Vtr_Racing]

I hate to tell you guys, but Infidel is spot on the money; consular access is international law.


I say sure. If people are so confident on this, go try it for yourselves and when you get out, sign back onto RDC and let us know how it worked out for you. I, for one am not going to try it. When I go to another country, I respect their ways and customs and laws.
So let us know how it works out. Not trying to be dis-respectful to anybody on here. I love the country I live in. I like Mexico, but its not my country. If Mexico doesnt want to have the death penalty, so be it, thats Mexico`s business and its citizens.

[scary fast hummer]

International law is an abstract concept, it is not reality. .


Ah, I see where you may have misunderstood. When the Nazi war criminals found themselves dangling from a knotted rope, they discovered the reality of international law and found it was not as abstract as perhaps they had thought. :eek:

International law is only a reality to those who sign up to it and believe in it. We (you and me, brother, through our elected officials) have signed up to it. If we expect others to adhere to it, we must lead by example. It does not matter what others do, the only thing that matters is what you do. Let me restate for the record; honor is not subjective. It is like bieng pregnant, you is or you aint.

"My country, right or wrong," is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober."
G. K. Chesterton

If old G.K. had finished this thought it would have been,"My mother, sober, if she isn't, lets get her that way." I certainly feel the same as you about the world court, the EU, the greenies, PETA, and the League of Women Voters (just kidding about them!) trying to tell us how to run our country but, in order to be able to look them in the eye with our head held high and rebut them, our house has to be clean first.

[scary fast hummer]

I say sure. If people are so confident on this, go try it for yourselves and when you get out, sign back onto RDC and let us know how it worked out for you. I, for one am not going to try it. When I go to another country, I respect their ways and customs and laws.
So let us know how it works out. Not trying to be dis-respectful to anybody on here. I love the country I live in. I like Mexico, but its not my country. If Mexico doesnt want to have the death penalty, so be it, thats Mexico`s business and its citizens.

Marc, with all due respect, I'm not really sure where your going with this. I am sure your a responsible adult ans gladly respect other countries laws and customs. I have spent far more time living abroad than back home in the states. While I have never been arrested overseas myself, I have had to make calls on a number of sailors who have. Having consular representation alongside has made all the difference in world. We have had to leave US service personnel is some of the worst possible places in the world because they have done some very, very stupid things. The only thing that makes sailing away and leaving a man behind is knowing that the US State Dep't is looking after them.

My point is this; the system works but it only works if we do it, and we should do it best.

Bye the way, do you know what the penalty is for a first time drug offense is in Singapore? If the US had the same, the problem would stop overnight. Look it up, you might be surprised.

[Bulldozer]

Thank you.

In 1963 The United States signed a treaty during the Vienna Convention.

That agreement says that when people are arrested abroad, they have a right to have access to consular officials from their own country.

That treaty protects Americans too. Americans under arrest in a foreign country have the right to access American consular officials because of treaty obligations. But if the United States ignores those obligations, so can foreign countries.

The US is the most powerful country on the world. Asserting its sovereignty by shrugging off treaty obligations doesn’t befit a world power. Nor does it befit a nation that asserts that the rule of law is one of its guiding principles to break a treaty that it expects other nations to honor.........

If the cases are reviewed (highly unlikely) I suppose the outcome should not be very different unless there is a clear and obvious mishandling of the evidence presented.

Those Mexican citizens should face the law and pay if guilty, but let the US honor all of its treaties first.:)

Generally when an American is arrested in Mexico they don't even get a trial, or even get a chance to speak to someone in English, much less consular service. I'm asking this seriously and not to sound like an a-hole, but why do you spend so much time worrying about what the U.S. is doing wrong instead of worrying about the problems in Mexico?

[DEZERTSUB]

Bye the way, do you know what the penalty is for a first time drug offense is in Singapore? If the US had the same, the problem would stop overnight. Look it up, you might be surprised.

By the way, do you know what a priority it is to Mexican officials that foreign citizens who have been arrested are allowed to communicate with their consulate????

Not gonna disagree with you on the point I have highlighted as well, but get serious man. Imagine if the US adopted Mexicos illegal immigration policies???
(look them up:cool:)

[Shaggy]

It's going to be a moot point. When it comes to the death penalty, those countries that do not have it, give us a hard time. This issue (contact with their country) has been discussed here in the states and found that that nothing illegal occurred. Plus Texas is the last state that's going to listen to the world court and trying to get the Supreme Court to stop these is slim to none.

The same attitude of the world goes to our right to bear arms. JMO :D

[MattV]

I can speak a little about this as it is something I deal with on a regular basis. When a foreign national is arrested, we are required to advise them that we will contact their consulate of they desire. The form is then sent, usually via fax, to the consulate. Whether or not they receive a visit from someone while in jail, I'm not sure, but I've never SEEN it happen. A surprising number of foreign nationals do not request the notification. I have no idea the reasons why, unless it's because the Mexican government can, and has, prosecuted their citizens for crimes abroad (as has the United States).

The consular notification has no effect on questioning or other aspects of the investigation. In other words a request to notify the consulate is not an invocation of the 5th of 6th amendment rights of an accused person.

[scary fast hummer]

Generally when an American is arrested in Mexico they don't even get a trial, or even get a chance to speak to someone in English, much less consular service. I'm asking this seriously and not to sound like an a-hole, but why do you spend so much time worrying about what the U.S. is doing wrong instead of worrying about the problems in Mexico?

Thank you for a well reasoned question. The answer is actually quite simple; this thread was started on the premise of why the US should listen to the World Court, or anybody else for that matter, on how we treat our foreign national prisoners. Ipso facto, then, that this thread should center only on what we do. Our ability to enforce internationally depends on our behavior at home.

That is not to say that I think anybody else does it better than us. Most do it far, far worse. In order to hold the moral high ground and have the right to tell anybody else in the world how to do anything, especially how to treat American citizens, we have to be spotless. If we sign a treaty, law or agreement, then we must abide by it. All the laws, all the time, no exceptions. Ever. With great ability goes exceptional responsibility.

I don't mean to sound like a professor but, ahh, well, umm, I am one.:o I teach this stuff to US, NATO, and Allied forces daily.

[Bulldozer]

Thank you for a well reasoned question. The answer is actually quite simple; this thread was started on the premise of why the US should listen to the World Court, or anybody else for that matter, on how we treat our foreign national prisoners. Ipso facto, then, that this thread should center only on what we do. Our ability to enforce internationally depends on our behavior at home.

That is not to say that I think anybody else does it better than us. Most do it far, far worse. In order to hold the moral high ground and have the right to tell anybody else in the world how to do anything, especially how to treat American citizens, we have to be spotless. If we sign a treaty, law or agreement, then we must abide by it. All the laws, all the time, no exceptions. Ever. With great ability goes exceptional responsibility.

I don't mean to sound like a professor but, ahh, well, umm, I am one.:o I teach this stuff to US, NATO, and Allied forces daily.
Well I wasn't reffering to this thread specifically I was just asking why it is that Indifel Racing is so concerned with American politics, he brings up his concern in many threads not just here.

[DSRacing]

Looks like Texas told the world court to F#*$ off.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5890690.html

A couple of rather interesting quotes,

The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations stipulates that, upon request, an alien offender's national consulate must be notified of his arrest.

This is key to what MattV brought up in his post, It's the arrestee's obligation to initiate contact with their consulate, not the arresting agency.

"The world court has no standing in Texas and Texas is not bound by a ruling or edict from a foreign court," Perry spokesman Robert Black said. "It is easy to get caught up in discussions of international law and justice and treaties. It's very important to remember that these individuals are on death row for killing our citizens."

Case closed.

[twillis]

Look at the judges. If you were a Texas prosecutor would they be your concern? Dressed like a choir group and all, on the other side of the globe, financed by by people you don't know and will never meet.
Back in the day a Texas judge could order you hanged for stealing another man's HORSE. These days being unanimously convicted of raping and murdering a CHILD gets you free room & board, medical care, library privledges, gym time and television. Go figure.

[pappawheely]

Where they even allowed to check citizenship?

[Roddd]

I wont defend a allege criminal, but please be objective about the reason why they are asking this:

The World Court told U.S. authorities in 2004 to review the cases of 51 Mexicans sentenced to death by state courts after finding they had been denied the right to seek help from consular officials.

This is an atrocity in itself, If you are denied of your embassy to provide you deference, translation services etc, then I think it is only fair to review their cases.

No one is asking for mercy, forgiveness or laxity in the rules....just fairness.

Worldwide it is accepted that a foreign citizen may ask their consular offices for assistance in his/her defense.

When an American gets in trouble here, (trust me , spring breakers and sex tourists often do) the 1st thing is they are offered a way to communicate with their consular office.....It is only fair.

Texas is notoriously uncivilized against illegal aliens, they do need to comply if they want the same courtesy extended to them.

Really? How much money does Mexico spend to offer free legal advice and a free legal defense to illegal Americans on their side of the border? I'm sorry if you think Texas treats murderers and rapists in an unfair manner.

[Roddd]

Thank you.

In 1963 The United States signed a treaty during the Vienna Convention.

That agreement says that when people are arrested abroad, they have a right to have access to consular officials from their own country.

That treaty protects Americans too. Americans under arrest in a foreign country have the right to access American consular officials because of treaty obligations. But if the United States ignores those obligations, so can foreign countries.

The US is the most powerful country on the world. Asserting its sovereignty by shrugging off treaty obligations doesn’t befit a world power. Nor does it befit a nation that asserts that the rule of law is one of its guiding principles to break a treaty that it expects other nations to honor.........

If the cases are reviewed (highly unlikely) I suppose the outcome should not be very different unless there is a clear and obvious mishandling of the evidence presented.

Those Mexican citizens should face the law and pay if guilty, but let the US honor all of its treaties first.:)

The U.S. also has a treaty with its citizens. The government is in place to protect its citizens from murderers like the poor unfortunate murderers being used in this example. And what treaty did the U.S. sign saying we should provide a team of defense attorneys at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer? None, but we still did.

[Roddd]

Why sign a treaty and expect everybody to follow it except you? That is why many people think today’s US foreign policy is the root of most of the US problems abroad.

For 1 second take your US citizen cap, and think of this in terms of a British citizen as an example…..This is very short sighted by the US policy makers and it will backfire on their citizens abroad.[/QUOTE]

I hope that doesn't mean we have to start bribing Mexican police officers. What makes you think that the Mexican government would have come to the aid of these lowlife murdering scum to begin with?

[scary fast hummer]

Roddd, with all due respect (and I really mean that), your missing the point. Your logical argument is called a "straw man" fallacy. This thread is not about what anybody else does, it is about how we behave. If we have broken a treaty, law, or obligation, it is incumbant upon us to do the right thing. Wether or not we recognize the World Court, like the way they dress, or how the Mexicans treat US persons is irrelevant to the argument.

Here is a relevant example:

I should not pay a fine for reckless driving. There are actual dangerous criminals on the street, and the police should be chasing them instead of harassing a decent tax-paying citizen like me.
The existence of worse criminals is a secondary issue which has no bearing on whether the driver deserves a fine for recklessness. If the speaker were deliberately attempting to divert the issue, this would be an example of a "red herring" arugument. I do not believe that you are trying to divert this issue, I think its a simple case of comparing apples and oranges.


Its about our obligations; did we do the right thing? Nothing else has any bearing as they are different and seperate arguments.

Yours in service,

[Roddd]

Thanks for the debate lesson. I'll respectfully disagree. When one party breaks its contractural obligations, the contract is no longer valid, in this case the treaty.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Roddd, with all due respect (and I really mean that), your missing the point. Your logical argument is called a "straw man" fallacy. This thread is not about what anybody else does, it is about how we behave. If we have broken a treaty, law, or obligation, it is incumbant upon us to do the right thing. Wether or not we recognize the World Court, like the way they dress, or how the Mexicans treat US persons is irrelevant to the argument.

Here is a relevant example:

I should not pay a fine for reckless driving. There are actual dangerous criminals on the street, and the police should be chasing them instead of harassing a decent tax-paying citizen like me.
The existence of worse criminals is a secondary issue which has no bearing on whether the driver deserves a fine for recklessness. If the speaker were deliberately attempting to divert the issue, this would be an example of a "red herring" arugument. I do not believe that you are trying to divert this issue, I think its a simple case of comparing apples and oranges.


Its about our obligations; did we do the right thing? Nothing else has any bearing as they are different and seperate arguments.

Yours in service,

Very well said. It is my consolation that a clearly very intelligent, well educated American with actual hands on experience in dealing with the world concurs with some of my arguments. In real life it is people like scary fast hummer who make all the difference.

I really appreciate your input in this forum. It brings an insiders look on the issues.

[MattV]

One of the things I thank that has been lost here is that if you are a foreign national and are arrested, you are subject to the host country's laws, with some exceptions regarding members of US Armed Forces serving abroad. They generally get to deal with UCMJ proceedings.

Things are different from the United States if you are arrested in Mexico. They are obligated to follow their laws, not the US Constitution. Interestingly, though, the same types of things that attract unfavorable law enforcement attention in Mexico and other countries do the same in the United States. If you would get in trouble here, you probably will there.

The other aspect of this case is the World Court. The World Court has no jurisdiction in the United States. The trial court is concerned with constitutional rights of the accused, not the obligations of a treaty. Unless some civil right of the accused was violated, or some other error was made, the failure of the arresting officer to notify the Mexican Consulate is not grounds for appeal. Consular notification and constitutional rights are not the same thing. Was there a mistake? Yes. Nonetheless, the constitutional rights of the defendants in this case were not violated by that mistake.

Things such as whether or not the defendant understood the translator or whether or not his statements were voluntary are issues for the judge and jury to deal with, not a foreign consulate.

[scary fast hummer]

One of the things I thank that has been lost here is that if you are a foreign national and are arrested, you are subject to the host country's laws, with some exceptions regarding members of US Armed Forces serving abroad. They generally get to deal with UCMJ proceedings.

Quite right, in countries which we have a Status of Forces agreement, service members are turned back over to the US Military for adjudication. Punishment under UCMJ is usually far tougher than civil law.

Things are different from the United States if you are arrested in Mexico. They are obligated to follow their laws, not the US Constitution. Interestingly, though, the same types of things that attract unfavorable law enforcement attention in Mexico and other countries do the same in the United States. If you would get in trouble here, you probably will there.

Hear him!

The other aspect of this case is the World Court. The World Court has no jurisdiction in the United States. The trial court is concerned with constitutional rights of the accused, not the obligations of a treaty. Unless some civil right of the accused was violated, or some other error was made, the failure of the arresting officer to notify the Mexican Consulate is not grounds for appeal. Consular notification and constitutional rights are not the same thing. Was there a mistake? Yes. Nonetheless, the constitutional rights of the defendants in this case were not violated by that mistake.

Things such as whether or not the defendant understood the translator or whether or not his statements were voluntary are issues for the judge and jury to deal with, not a foreign consulate.

I would have to disagree with you on the last statement. Making sure that you understand what is happening to you is exactly what your embassy and consular staff are for. They cannot and will not get you out of trouble but, they can and do, help citizens from bieng tried and executed without understanding what is going on. For instance, if you were being forced to sign a confession in, say, Thai, or Malay, how would you know if you signed a confession to parking more than 18" from the curb or just confessed to being a drug kingpin?

The World Court, by virtue of bieng recognized by the USA, does have jurisdiction. You can not accept jurisdiction of the court in places like Belgrade, where one of the worst war criminals in living memory has just been arrested, and then not recognize it when the light is pointed at you.

Let us make one thing absolutely clear; reviewing these cases will not change the outcomes. They have all been tried, found guilty, and will pay for it. Reviewing the cases, though seemingly unneeded and wasteful, ensures that all of the checks and balances have been done. One of the fundemental rules of a democratic, just society is that you must be ready to let 10 guilty men go free to ensure that one innocent man is not punished. Sucks, I know, unless your that one innocent man.

[MattV]

On March 25th of this Year, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in a 6-3, decision that the World Court lacked the authority to order the State of Texas to carry out the review.

The United States left the World Court in 1986 and has since renounced the treaty regarding the International Criminal Criminal Court on multiple occasions.

While I completely agree that the signing of a confession, or other documents in a foreign language could have disastrous consequences, this is precisely why criminal defendants in the United States receive a trial by jury.
I am certain that things are different in Malaysia, or Thailand or just about anywhere else. But I can tell you that if I went to our County Attorney with a confession written in English, and signed by a non-english speaking person, the case would likely never even be filed.
I've seen cases lost on poor translation and statements suppressed based on a lack of understanding of a defendant's rights due to language issues.

[scary fast hummer]

On March 25th of this Year, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in a 6-3, decision that the World Court lacked the authority to order the State of Texas to carry out the review.

The United States left the World Court in 1986 and has since renounced the treaty regarding the International Criminal Criminal Court on multiple occasions.

While I completely agree that the signing of a confession, or other documents in a foreign language could have disastrous consequences, this is precisely why criminal defendants in the United States receive a trial by jury.
I am certain that things are different in Malaysia, or Thailand or just about anywhere else. But I can tell you that if I went to our County Attorney with a confession written in English, and signed by a non-english speaking person, the case would likely never even be filed.
I've seen cases lost on poor translation and statements suppressed based on a lack of understanding of a defendant's rights due to language issues.

Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you for illuminating us on the Supreme Court ruling. I did not know that.

[MattV]

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. While I think that we should honor our commitments, I have a lot of issues with anything that may compromise our national sovereignty. It's a two-way street. While a an Non-US citizen arrested here is subject to our laws and procedures, a US citizen arrested abroad is subject to the laws and procedures of the other country. We can't control the criminal procedures in other countries, just as they cannot control ours. I would have to argue, though, that if I were a citizen of another country, I would rather face criminal prosecution here, than at home, with the possible exceptions of the UK and Australia.

The other interesting part of the Supreme Court case is that it also addressed attempts by the Bush Administration to force Texas to conduct the review which the SCOTUS also ruled lacked the authority to order the state to conduct the review.

[Infidel Racing Team]

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. While I think that we should honor our commitments, I have a lot of issues with anything that may compromise our national sovereignty. It's a two-way street. While a an Non-US citizen arrested here is subject to our laws and procedures, a US citizen arrested abroad is subject to the laws and procedures of the other country. We can't control the criminal procedures in other countries, just as they cannot control ours. I would have to argue, though, that if I were a citizen of another country, I would rather face criminal prosecution here, than at home, with the possible exceptions of the UK and Australia.

The other interesting part of the Supreme Court case is that it also addressed attempts by the Bush Administration to force Texas to conduct the review which the SCOTUS also ruled lacked the authority to order the state to conduct the review.

That is the point, Its a 2 way street.....And by far most countries do not observe fairness as much as the UK & the US.

IMHO the supreme court ruling is short sighted, by far there is more US tourists than any others, having the ICJ belittle does no service to them. Time will tell.

Having said so, I would hate to be detained in a country with Sharia law.....

[scott-dsms]

Having said so, I would hate to be detained in a country with Sharia law.....

Agreed Infidel - That is why I don't go to those countries. Picking your nose carries the death penalty:D Gimme a break

Did anyone hear about the Brits that were having sex on the beach in Dubai? Those folks are in BIG trouble. They are however being afforded 'consular' advice, before their heads get chopped off by a 14 yr old with a dull knife :eek:

God Bless America...land that I love...stand beside her...and guide her...

Hooray for the USA! Peace

[DSRacing]

IMHO the supreme court ruling is short sighted, by far there is more US tourists than any others, having the ICJ belittle does no service to them. Time will tell.

So you are in agreement with President Bush?

[Infidel Racing Team]

So you are in agreement with President Bush?

I dont know what Bush said, but if its along with what I said, then Yes.

I dont hate Bush. I just think he is not worth being a president of your great country, but that is only my opinion.....Even a broken clock is right twice a day, right?:)

[MattV]

I think he is referring Bush's support of the review of this case.

[Infidel Racing Team]

I think he is referring Bush's support of the review of this case.

If it is based on a the ICJ petition, then we concur on that issue:)

[DSRacing]

Gustavo,

Here is a article regarding Pres. Bush's decision written by a professor of international law.

http://www.asil.org/insights/2005/03/insights050309.html

The overwelming view from similar articles I've read, Bush supported the ICJ decision and reconsideration of the cases only because he wanted to raise his stature in the international community. Not because he felt there was any wrongdoing on the part of the courts. The only problem is, the Supreme Court said unless Congress chooses to vote Article 36 of the Vienna Convention into US law, the states aren't obligated to follow the ICJ ruling.


I've spent a lot of time reading over the original complaint filed by Mexico with the ICJ in 2003 and the US response. Make sure you have water on hand, it's dry reading (Close to 500 pages) IMO both are lacking. Mexico more or less calling the United States racist and actively seeking out the death penalty for immigrants. They generally do not cite any wrongdoing in the relative cases of the 51 Mexican nationals in question, other than not notifying the consulate and actually cite instances of wrongdoing and conspricy on the part of Mexican officials. One case claims US officials conspired with Mexican authorities to kidnap and jail the parents in Mexico in order to gain a confession of an arrestee in custody in the US.

Rather ridiculous don't you think?

A few interersting quotes from the original application filed by Mexico with the ICJ.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/128/8272.pdf?PHPSESSID=9af0adb7fe9e137f9cdf6eea47a4b74 1

If the detained national so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State, shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner” (ibid.)
The competent authorities are also obliged to forward any communications from the detained national to the consular post “without delay” (ibid.).

This is directly out of Article 36 and goes against the whole basis of the original complaint.

As I have said in my previous posts, it's the obligation of the arrestee to initiate the process of consular notification. I've talked to a couple of ICE agents I work with about this situation. Since they interview everyone whom they have reason to believe may be a foriegn national based on the information they have at the time. They provide each person with the telephone number of their country's consulate, if the person requests, they will contact the consulate for them immediately.

Many times the arrestee will claim they are a US citizen fearing deportation. If they have been living in the US for an extended period of time, it can be difficult to determine citizenship. But the obligation of the authorities to notify the consulate ends there.

As a sidenote, this whole 12 year escapade started here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaGrand_Case

[Infidel Racing Team]

We are all in agreement here. We concur that these reviews most likely will not alter the end result, yet they are a necessary step for international reciprocity. There lies their importance.

I can’t get into the details of the trail, because It is not my intent to demonstrate the allege murder’s innocence, but rather the tactless way in how it was handled according to those treaties.

It would take no more than 5 min to investigate the legal standing of a citizen, so even if they claim they are US citizens, I would imagine it is their job to insure they are , especially after there are many tell, tell signs he is not a US citizen.

I have to agree with you on the kidnapping charge, it seems like a stretch, but in reality we see many of your institution representatives behave badly which makes the claim a little more believable from this side of the border…..Still a stretch.

I applaud Bush for trying to gain favor with the international community, but IMHO it is too little too late. A sign that the world is fed up with unilateral decisions from the Bush administration is how the candidates are being received in each country.

A particular candidate is being perceived a new chance to reconnect with an old ally. While the other is the same old stuff….

[scott-dsms]

Justice has been served - Rapist/Murderer executed

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398465,00.html

[Infidel Racing Team]

Justice has been served - Rapist/Murderer executed

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398465,00.html

Big story in Mexico, no one felt any pity for the guy...he appeared with a long face being interviewed by the Mexican media.....He tried to appeal as some sort of a victim of the system, but no one bought it.....many people wanted a shooting squad or something even more radical....The only thing that pissed the Mexican general public was the disregard of the ICJ to "review" the case...

Two things happened......The general public (in Mexico) wanted this guy FRIED and the Anti- American sentiment is piling up for the disregard of their commitments....

Told you so.....So next time a tourist gets the "Midnight express treatment" somewhere in the world, don’t come crying over spilled milk:rolleyes:

PS: If you are planning to travel abroad, I suggest you use a Canadian Maple Leaf patch at all times. I had many American friends which owe their butt to that patch during backpacking .....

[scott-dsms]

PS: If you are planning to travel abroad, I suggest you use a Canadian Maple Leaf patch at all times. I had many American friends which owe their butt to that patch during backpacking .....

I was hoping you would be my guide bro!

p.s. Midnight express treatment c'mon man...dude has been sitting on his butt at taxpayer expense for 15 years. He was treated as any citizen would have been, but we've already discussed that part - Just wanted to give everyone the update

[Infidel Racing Team]

I was hoping you would be my guide bro!

Hey, Ill be honored......I was expecting Donny this past week but he canceled at the last minute.

I am in the state of Sonora, if you ever in my nick of the woods, gimme a holla....You have a House and a friend here bro!

[DEZERTSUB]

Hey, Ill be honored......I was expecting Donny this past week but he canceled at the last minute.

I am in the state of Sonora, if you ever in my nick of the woods, gimme a holla....You have a House and a friend here bro!

SORRY!!!

[Infidel Racing Team]

SORRY!!!

I just love to rub it in....I guess you will not be off the hook for a while:p

In any rate, do you have Randy S phone?
Please PM it