Waterboarding IS TORTURE!!!

[Infidel Racing Team]

IF not Try it....

Believe Me, It’s Torture


What more can be added to the debate over U.S. interrogation methods, and whether waterboarding is torture? Try firsthand experience. The author undergoes the controversial drowning technique, at the hands of men who once trained American soldiers to resist—not inflict—it.
by Christopher Hitchens

The article:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808




Here is the most chilling way I can find of stating the matter. Until recently, “waterboarding” was something that Americans did to other Americans. It was inflicted, and endured, by those members of the Special Forces who underwent the advanced form of training known as sere (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape). In these harsh exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict.

Exploring this narrow but deep distinction, on a gorgeous day last May I found myself deep in the hill country of western North Carolina, preparing to be surprised by a team of extremely hardened veterans who had confronted their country’s enemies in highly arduous terrain all over the world. They knew about everything from unarmed combat to enhanced interrogation and, in exchange for anonymity, were going to show me as nearly as possible what real waterboarding might be like.

View a video of Hitchens’s waterboarding experience.
It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly:

“Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.

As the agreement went on to say, there would be safeguards provided “during the ‘water boarding’ process, however, these measures may fail and even if they work properly they may not prevent Hitchens from experiencing serious injury or death.”

On the night before the encounter I got to sleep with what I thought was creditable ease, but woke early and knew at once that I wasn’t going back to any sort of doze or snooze. The first specialist I had approached with the scheme had asked my age on the telephone and when told what it was (I am 59) had laughed out loud and told me to forget it. Waterboarding is for Green Berets in training, or wiry young jihadists whose teeth can bite through the gristle of an old goat. It’s not for wheezing, paunchy scribblers. For my current “handlers” I had had to produce a doctor’s certificate assuring them that I did not have asthma, but I wondered whether I should tell them about the 15,000 cigarettes I had inhaled every year for the last several decades. I was feeling apprehensive, in other words, and beginning to wish I hadn’t given myself so long to think about it.

I have to be opaque about exactly where I was later that day, but there came a moment when, sitting on a porch outside a remote house at the end of a winding country road, I was very gently yet firmly grabbed from behind, pulled to my feet, pinioned by my wrists (which were then cuffed to a belt), and cut off from the sunlight by having a black hood pulled over my face. I was then turned around a few times, I presume to assist in disorienting me, and led over some crunchy gravel into a darkened room. Well, mainly darkened: there were some oddly spaced bright lights that came as pinpoints through my hood. And some weird music assaulted my ears. (I’m no judge of these things, but I wouldn’t have expected former Special Forces types to be so fond of New Age techno-disco.) The outside world seemed very suddenly very distant indeed.

Arms already lost to me, I wasn’t able to flail as I was pushed onto a sloping board and positioned with my head lower than my heart. (That’s the main point: the angle can be slight or steep.) Then my legs were lashed together so that the board and I were one single and trussed unit. Not to bore you with my phobias, but if I don’t have at least two pillows I wake up with acid reflux and mild sleep apnea, so even a merely supine position makes me uneasy. And, to tell you something I had been keeping from myself as well as from my new experimental friends, I do have a fear of drowning that comes from a bad childhood moment on the Isle of Wight, when I got out of my depth. As a boy reading the climactic torture scene of 1984, where what is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world, I realize that somewhere in my version of that hideous chamber comes the moment when the wave washes over me. Not that that makes me special: I don’t know anyone who likes the idea of drowning. As mammals we may have originated in the ocean, but water has many ways of reminding us that when we are in it we are out of our element. In brief, when it comes to breathing, give me good old air every time.

You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it “simulates” the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning—or, rather, being drowned, albeit slowly and under controlled conditions and at the mercy (or otherwise) of those who are applying the pressure. The “board” is the instrument, not the method. You are not being boarded. You are being watered. This was very rapidly brought home to me when, on top of the hood, which still admitted a few flashes of random and worrying strobe light to my vision, three layers of enveloping towel were added. In this pregnant darkness, head downward, I waited for a while until I abruptly felt a slow cascade of water going up my nose. Determined to resist if only for the honor of my navy ancestors who had so often been in peril on the sea, I held my breath for a while and then had to exhale and—as you might expect—inhale in turn. The inhalation brought the damp cloths tight against my nostrils, as if a huge, wet paw had been suddenly and annihilatingly clamped over my face. Unable to determine whether I was breathing in or out, and flooded more with sheer panic than with mere water, I triggered the pre-arranged signal and felt the unbelievable relief of being pulled upright and having the soaking and stifling layers pulled off me. I find I don’t want to tell you how little time I lasted.

This is because I had read that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, invariably referred to as the “mastermind” of the atrocities of September 11, 2001, had impressed his interrogators by holding out for upwards of two minutes before cracking. (By the way, this story is not confirmed. My North Carolina friends jeered at it. “Hell,” said one, “from what I heard they only washed his damn face before he babbled.”) But, hell, I thought in my turn, no Hitchens is going to do worse than that. Well, O.K., I admit I didn’t outdo him. And so then I said, with slightly more bravado than was justified, that I’d like to try it one more time. There was a paramedic present who checked my racing pulse and warned me about adrenaline rush. An interval was ordered, and then I felt the mask come down again. Steeling myself to remember what it had been like last time, and to learn from the previous panic attack, I fought down the first, and some of the second, wave of nausea and terror but soon found that I was an abject prisoner of my gag reflex. The interrogators would hardly have had time to ask me any questions, and I knew that I would quite readily have agreed to supply any answer. I still feel ashamed when I think about it. Also, in case it’s of interest, I have since woken up trying to push the bedcovers off my face, and if I do anything that makes me short of breath I find myself clawing at the air with a horrible sensation of smothering and claustrophobia. No doubt this will pass. As if detecting my misery and shame, one of my interrogators comfortingly said, “Any time is a long time when you’re breathing water.” I could have hugged him for saying so, and just then I was hit with a ghastly sense of the sadomasochistic dimension that underlies the relationship between the torturer and the tortured. I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: “If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.” Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.

[Mike @ pit b]

Oh come on how is forced drowning torture?:rolleyes:

Those guys are just taking an EXTREME bath. They have been hiding in the desert and are REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAALLYYYYYYYYY dirty. :D

Mike

[Vtr_Racing]

So whats your point.
Im not in particular favor of people pulling crap on US soil and as far as Im concerned, extracting info from people that dont like us is a dirty job. I really dont want to know how they do it. Its none of my business or yours. Espionage and terrorism is UGLY. Always will be. You wont like how things are done to get info from nasty people anyways so this is a mute point. My message would be to those who dont want to get waterboarded or any other ways that info is extracted from NASTY people, dont give anyone any reason to do it. Thats pretty simple.

[randy s]

i'm not sure on this one. but it seems like pretending to be a friendly sort might possibly get more useful info than drowning someone. i mean, would'nt you say darn near anything, true or false to get em' to stop with the water if it were you? how useful is that info and how would you know if it was or was'nt bulls--t? like i said, i don't know about this one. what i do know is that if we stayed around the shed and took care of our own problems at home instead of protecting our so-called "interests" in the middle east [oil] we might not be talking about this subject now. our "interests" over there sure have paid off at the pump have'nt they?

[dan200]

Is dumping a skyscraper pile of rubble on innocent people torture?

[hangten33]

It is torture, but as of 9-12 I didn't give a **** what we had to do to save American lives!!:mad::mad:

[pappawheely]

How did anyone outside the military find out what waterboarding is?

[scott-dsms]

Vanity Fair article? :rolleyes: Now there's a publication I trust for the straight story! HAHAHA!!

[Infidel Racing Team]

i mean, would'nt you say darn near anything, true or false to get em' to stop with the water if it were you? how useful is that info and how would you know if it was or was'nt bulls--t?


Ding-Ding - Ding.......EXACTLY ....

I knew if I left it open ,(opinion less) eventually someone smart would read the whole article, and come back with a response beyond the first *** for tat answer...

This comes back to the old age thread about the Guantanamo prisoners...Dont you think maybe somewhere in there there ****might*** be a waterboarded goat herder who was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I hope they all get a fair trial, if they are found guilty, let the watergames continue for those guilty. If they are innocent, they should be compensated (I don't know...give em 10000 goats or something).;)

[dan200]

All is fair in love and war...

[Infidel Racing Team]

Vanity Fair article? :rolleyes: Now there's a publication I trust for the straight story! HAHAHA!!

Christopher Hitchens wrote the article, If that name doesnt ring a bell I recommend his work...He is one of the most intelligent writers / thinkers / public intellectuals out there....

He can out debate anyone in this world, he has destroyed Al Sharpton in a public debate and mostly anyone who dares debate him.....Youtube him, you will see what I mean:D

Oh, and for the record, Christopher Hitchens is 100% pro middle east war.

Careful, reading and understanding Hitchens might turn you into a critical Thinker;)

YouTube - Christopher Hitchens on Iraq and the Petraeus Report part 1

[Infidel Racing Team]

All is fair in love and war...

Kill my Ex and Nuke all Islamic children!.......Jihad!!!!!!!

[Infidel Racing Team]

It is torture, but as of 9-12 I didn't give a **** what we had to do to save American lives!!:mad::mad:

Honest answer, but it reduces a great country such as yours to their (terrorists) same moral level

[JRod]

How did anyone outside the military find out what waterboarding is?

That's the first thing I thought when I read the title to this post.

The second thing I thought was.... well, it would probably be edited by the post-censor thingy.... but, basically, no, it's not torture. I don't care what some journalist says about what he thinks is waterboarding...

.... and no, I didn't read the article because I won't give any more hits on that website for talking about stuff from the military that is not supposed to be public knowledge.

[dan200]

The high moral ground we have in the US is a bit overated sometimes Gus. We do a lot for the world and then we get hated for it.

[Infidel Racing Team]

.... and no, I didn't read the article because I won't give any more hits on that website for talking about stuff from the military that is not supposed to be public knowledge.

Trust me, Hitchens does not need cheap publicity, he is a scholar. Now as far as reading it, there is nothing there inflammatory nor anti American, nor anti military.....It is first hand information on the procedure. From there the reader can deduce, just like Randy did that it is quite a useless tactic to extract information.....Very unreliable and the US used to train people how to resist it, never inflicted....much has changed now a days.

Read it, words dont harm.....neither ideas.

[Infidel Racing Team]

The high moral ground we have in the US is a bit overated sometimes Gus. We do a lot for the world and then we get hated for it.

Dan,

I agree, sometimes its overrated, but some of the hatred is for doing the "right thing" always with a catch 22.......

Actually this past decade the US has spent its time battling their "bastard" children, much like Dr. Frankenstein.....i.e. Osama Bin Laden, General Manuel Noriega and Saddam Hussein.

You got to recognize that some of that hatred is very well deserved for some of the US tactless and short sighted foreign policies (just check the names mentioned above)

I bring this point because Waterboarding interrogations are just one of the short sighted policies going on right now...

[dan200]

I would like to see what would happen if we just cut off all foreign aid for one month.

[Infidel Racing Team]

I would like to see what would happen if we just cut off all foreign aid for one month.

Hmmm...Lets see, there is no politician with enough balls to call this...Why?

Because politicians get elected by contributors, not votes....

Cut the aid to Israel for 1 month and who ever (ballsy politician) calls it his/ hers career is over.....No more Jewish contributors.

Besides, there will be 10 other aspiring politicians willing to cannibalize the corps of the numbnut who call the boycott just to get Jewish contributions for their campaign....

Dont be naive, The people do not elect politicians, the contributors do.....

Why do you think G.W. Bush will not release 1/3 of the strategic oil reserves?
'cause he is in the oil boy's payroll.......

All the politicians in the world are corrupt.....It is just a matter of price. (supply and demand , baby!)

[hammer down racing]

Think what you will about our country and it's foreign policies, but Mexico isn't any better. As corrupt as our government may be this is still the best country in the world.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Think what you will about our country and it's foreign policies, but Mexico isn't any better. As corrupt as our government may be this is still the best country in the world.

(A frenetic crowd on the back chanting USA, USA, USA)......:rolleyes:

Look this is not a Mexico vs USA thread....but just to challenge your statement above I will give you a rebuttal:

The greatness of a country can be subjective or objective. If it is subjective it depends on the eye of the beholder, anyone can argue their country its the best and it wont be a right or wrong answer.....You catch my drift?

Ok, but if you want to measure tangible and important things such as life expectancy, Infant mortality, GDP per capita and adult literacy...then you are wrong, the USA is the 6th best place to live in the world.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm#table

Now getting back this thread again in course, Is there something you disagree on my previous "Contributors elect officials" post that you disagree on?

Or shall we just leave it in a hearty felt "GO USA!" chant from you?

[Vtr_Racing]

I have seen and read plenty of Kichens stuff. As far as this thread goes. His opinions dont mean squat to me. In War and terrorism, there are no morals. You cant have any. You have an objective and you stick to it.

[pappawheely]

(A frenetic crowd on the back chanting USA, USA, USA)......:rolleyes:

Look this is not a Mexico vs USA thread....but just to challenge your statement above I will give you a rebuttal:

The greatness of a country can be subjective or objective. If it is subjective it depends on the eye of the beholder, anyone can argue their country its the best and it wont be a right or wrong answer.....You catch my drift?

Ok, but if you want to measure tangible and important things such as life expectancy, Infant mortality, GDP per capita and adult literacy...then you are wrong, the USA is the 6th best place to live in the world.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm#table



Well, Guess who protects Norway's butt?

[hammer down racing]

(A frenetic crowd on the back chanting USA, USA, USA)......:rolleyes:

Look this is not a Mexico vs USA thread....but just to challenge your statement above I will give you a rebuttal:

The greatness of a country can be subjective or objective. If it is subjective it depends on the eye of the beholder, anyone can argue their country its the best and it wont be a right or wrong answer.....You catch my drift?

Ok, but if you want to measure tangible and important things such as life expectancy, Infant mortality, GDP per capita and adult literacy...then you are wrong, the USA is the 6th best place to live in the world.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm#table

Now getting back this thread again in course, Is there something you disagree on my previous "Contributors elect officials" post that you disagree on?

Or shall we just leave it in a hearty felt "GO USA!" chant from you?

I'm not trying to turn this into a USA vs Mexico thread. I just think it's odd that you try to point out the "evil" in our country when there is a lot more you should worry about in your own country.

[randy s]

All is fair in love and war...

waterboarding a girlfriend? i have enough of a problem getting her to shut up.

[Steve0]

I have seen and read plenty of Kichens stuff. As far as this thread goes. His opinions dont mean squat to me. In War and terrorism, there are no morals. You cant have any. You have an objective and you stick to it.

Well said!

waterboarding a girlfriend? i have enough of a problem getting her to shut up.

That put a smile on my face this morning:) Can we waterboard a ex-wife?

[Infidel Racing Team]

I'm not trying to turn this into a USA vs Mexico thread. I just think it's odd that you try to point out the "evil" in our country when there is a lot more you should worry about in your own country.

I bring up contemporary subjects.....mostly things that are in the news and would yield an interesting conversation. If I dont post those little uplifting self indulgent nationalistic stories is because they are a waste of space in a forum.(IMHO)

Now I dont have absolutely no problem talking about Mexico and its problems, I often do in those Baja Bashing posts.....I dont take those opinions personal, actually I value them...I can understand someone saying: I love racing in Mexico, but boy, oh boy that _________(insert problem here)________ are a real hassle

Why couldnt you understand a person saying: I love and support the USA, but not blindly?

I subscribe to Thomas Paine school of thought:
The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion

I hope that clears a bit my intentions

[Infidel Racing Team]

That put a smile on my face this morning:) Can we waterboard a ex-wife?

Hey, Dan just gave us permission....In Love and war all is fair:D

[DaveGores]

Honest answer, but it reduces a great country such as yours to their (terrorists) same moral level


Wrong. You've just demonstrating exactly what is wrong with the left today. I can't understand why liberals are so obsessed with moral equivalence. Water boarding terrorists is no where near comparable to sawing off the heads of innocent civilians or blowing up women and children in pizza parlors. These people are barbaric and in order to defeat them we have to do what is necessary. As much as you would like to demonize this administration and the actions of the military on its behalf, you can't argue with facts. We treat these people with much more care and respect than they deserve. It is those actions that give us the moral high ground and earn our soldiers the respect and great admiration that they rightfully deserve.

[baja619]

I saw his original story / report when it was 1st aired. I dont give a **** what the Vanity Fair Article says, that magazine is a liberals crutch.

All I have to say is I am all for this type of interrogation. It sure beats the alternative that the scum of the earth practices. Oh, and if you dont know what I am talking about, I am referring to Islamic radicals using children for suicide bombers, internet promo video featuring a 13 year old well on his way to be a blood thirsty killer saw the head off a tied up hostage with a small dull knife. young children practice shooting AK-47s that are almost long as they are tall. Just typical kid stuff that goes on in terrorist war torn countries.

Our soldiers that have the duty of pressing suspected terrorists are the worlds heros.

[randy s]

i wish they'd re-name that method of extracting information. waterboarding sounds like a fun, new sport that they might have on the x games. if mccain wins, it might be. wheeeeeeee. relax. just foolin'.

[DaveGores]

This comes back to the old age thread about the Guantanamo prisoners...Dont you think maybe somewhere in there there ****might*** be a waterboarded goat herder who was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Yes, I concede that this is absolutely possible. In a war, innocent people are often, at the least, inconvenienced, and at the worst, killed. An innocent man, held captive and interrogated, falls somewhere between the two. I would rather have one man imprisoned wrongfully than allow for dozens of murderers to go free and subsequently take more innocent lives. Are you willing to stick to a system that never imprisons one innocent man but allows for the most evil among us to go free and kill innocent people? How many innocent people would have to lose their lives before you would allow an innocent man to be imprisoned?


I hope they all get a fair trial, if they are found guilty, let the watergames continue for those guilty. If they are innocent, they should be compensated (I don't know...give em 10000 goats or something).;)

Why do you consider these enemy combatants to be different than any of the hundreds of thousands of prisoners of war held in the past? The idea that our activist Supreme Court decided foreigners caught on the battlefield deserve the same right to a day in court that I do, makes my blood boil. It's only a matter of time before these people are suing to get better meals and luxuries while imprisoned.

You got to recognize that some of that hatred is very well deserved for some of the US tactless and short sighted foreign policies (just check the names mentioned above)

I disagree. It's pretty disturbing that you are actually trying to justify the hatred of a maniac like Osama Bin Laden. It is possible for people to have reasons for doing evil other than the actions of the United States.

I bring this point because Waterboarding interrogations are just one of the short sighted policies going on right now...

How so? Extracting information, in the most humane way possible, to keep Americans safe is short-sighted?

Cut the aid to Israel for 1 month and who ever (ballsy politician) calls it his/ hers career is over.....No more Jewish contributors.

If I made a list of countries I wanted to cut foreign aide to the most, Israel would be no where near the top of the list.

Why do you think G.W. Bush will not release 1/3 of the strategic oil reserves?
'cause he is in the oil boy's payroll.......

More unsubstantiated claims about George Bush?

Why couldnt you understand a person saying: I love and support the USA, but not blindly?

Who hear has said they will blindly support the policies of the U.S. government?

I subscribe to Thomas Paine school of thought:
The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion

If you were a United States citizen, I might take more offense to that comment. I guess this is another point on which we differ.

[TNT race photo]

Its like rock paper scissors,self preservation will always win over determination say anything to escape the moment.that video was a much tamer version of water boarding than I have seen befor, in the more extream version the prisoner is tied to a board baged then he is turned upside down and lowerd in to a pail of water little by little sometimes submerged.

[therail]

sounds like a fun, new sport that they might have on the x games.
i was just thinking that.

for the record, i support this.

[Bri-Man]

It's not like were sawing there heads off with a knife on world television.

These terrorists would slowly kill your baby right in front of you. Screw waterboarding, I say we cut off some extremedies or bamboo shoots up the fingernails. Why do we give rights to people that have taken away others'. I say we take all of the "known" terrorists that we have in prison, put them in a C-5, fly over Afganastan and Iraq and push them out. I bet that would send a message not to mess with the US.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Wrong. You've just demonstrating exactly what is wrong with the left today.

And that sir, Is your opinion.

I can't understand why liberals are so obsessed with moral equivalence.

Although I am not a liberal or a label, I think fighting a fight from a superior moral ground gives you not only an edge, but it wins hearts and minds from those indifferent to the quarrel. That was a trait in past administrations

Water boarding terrorists is no where near comparable to sawing off the heads of innocent civilians or blowing up women and children in pizza parlors. These people are barbaric and in order to defeat them we have to do what is necessary.

Only Nicolas Machiavelli would agree with that statement. Torture is torture, either it is or it not.



We treat these people with much more care and respect than they deserve. It is those actions that give us the moral high ground and earn our soldiers the respect and great admiration that they rightfully deserve.

That is exactly the point....I bet if the US special forces waterboards you or me they can extract from us that we are Alien Invaders and we want to destroy humans to get all the KFC chicken breasts for our civilization......
Who actually deserves to be there???? That is the question.

If you are saying waterboarding brings a moral high ground and respect, then you are delusional.

[Infidel Racing Team]

Screw waterboarding, I say we cut off some extremedies or bamboo shoots up the fingernails. .............. I bet that would send a message not to mess with the US.

This is a paid message by your friends in the Spanish Inquisition.....The Original Faith-based Initiative :D

[DaveGores]

Although I am not a liberal or a label, I think fighting a fight from a superior moral ground gives you not only an edge, but it wins hearts and minds from those indifferent to the quarrel. That was a trait in past administrations

I wasn't saying we should act like terrorists. I was getting at the fact that liberals often equate the actions of the United States to those of murderous dictators and regimes when there is no comparison to be made.

Only Nicolas Machiavelli would agree with that statement. Torture is torture, either it is or it not.

So the "Judas Cradle", "Brazen Bull" and "The Rack" are all comparable to water boarding? If you think so, you're even more confused than I thought.


That is exactly the point....I bet if the US special forces waterboards you or me they can extract from us that we are Alien Invaders and we want to destroy humans to get all the KFC chicken breasts for our civilization......
Who actually deserves to be there???? That is the question.

I'm sure these guys could get my say all sorts of funny things if they tried. What's your point? They are extracting information from these people that can be used to prevent innocent people from dying not convincing them to say funny little phrases.

If you are saying waterboarding brings a moral high ground and respect, then you are delusional.

I would really like you to explain your logic. Treating our prisoners with dignity, something our soldiers would not receive abroad, does bring a moral high ground. There are many other techniques the military could use to extract information, but they use the most humane techniques as possible. You don't believe this actions bring a moral high-ground?

[woundedyak]

I would say waterboarding is getting off easy. In most countries,( and yes, I can back this up)they walk in,shoot you in leg, then say they are only going to ask you one time!

[Infidel Racing Team]

I would rather have one man imprisoned wrongfully than allow for dozens of murderers to go free and subsequently take more innocent lives.
.

Until that man is you, right.....Never I said to let them free or release all the murderers! The point is Waterboarding is an unreliable method of extracting information and it is also torture, it should be discontinued.




Why do you consider these enemy combatants to be different than any of the hundreds of thousands of prisoners of war held in the past? .

Society evolves, past practices do not mean they are ok just based on antiquity itself.


It's pretty disturbing that you are actually trying to justify the hatred of a maniac like Osama Bin Laden.

Never I tried to justify his hatred, the point made there is that he is a bastard child of past failed and short sighted US foreign policies.......Do you remember The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? Guess who put all those weapons in Osama's hands??
Now this Frankenstein is turning on you.....There is no surprise there.....at least on the eyes of the world.



Who hear has said they will blindly support the policies of the U.S. government?


Implicitly many here do...


If you were a United States citizen, I might take more offense to that comment. I guess this is another point on which we differ.

You take offense at something Thomas Paine said? In part you owe this British citizen your freedom.....He and other "liberals" like Thomas Jefferson created the framework that constitutes your country.....

People in this forum throw the term "liberal" as an insult, ignoring the fact that it is due to great liberals that a United States of America exist.

I am honored every time someone says you are a Liberal (although I never label myself in 1 thing only).....I am in good company:)

[scott-dsms]

I would say waterboarding is getting off easy. In most countries,( and yes, I can back this up)they walk in,shoot you in leg, then say they are only going to ask you one time!

Yep - By the time they get through a couple of them the others start to talk.

"It's not my job to determine guilt or innocence, that is between them and GOD. I just arrange the meeting" - Denzel Washington - Man On Fire

[R_TAYLOR]

We need more of Jack Bauer type interrorgations.He gets answers.

[pappawheely]

Maybe they should just force them to watch Al Gore's movie. This video would be what the libs would be saying about GW if we hadn't invaded Iraq.


YouTube - Gore criticizes Bush for ignoring Iraq's ties to terrorism

[DaveGores]

Until that man is you, right.....Never I said to let them free or release all the murderers! The point is Waterboarding is an unreliable method of extracting information and it is also torture, it should be discontinued.

How would you know? Are you an expert on interrogation?

Society evolves, past practices do not mean they are ok just based on antiquity itself.

So we should have clogged our court system with the hundreds of thousands of prisoners of war we captured in Europe? I think it's you who's delusional.

Never I tried to justify his hatred, the point made there is that he is a bastard child of past failed and short sighted US foreign policies.......Do you remember The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? Guess who put all those weapons in Osama's hands??

So failing to rebuild Afghanistan after helping the Afghans defeat the Soviet invaders is cause for murdering thousands of Americans as well as other innocent people around the world?

Implicitly many here do...

Your perception and reality are not one in the same.

You take offense at something Thomas Paine said? In part you owe this British citizen your freedom.....He and other "liberals" like Thomas Jefferson created the framework that constitutes your country.....

The beliefs of these men bear no resemblance whatsoever to the morally bankrupt democratic party of the late 20th and early 21st century. The founding fathers were liberals? Now that's funny.

People in this forum throw the term "liberal" as an insult, ignoring the fact that it is due to great liberals that a United States of America exist.

That statement would make sense if you change the common definition of liberal. The classical definition bears much more resemblance to modern conservatism. Most of these people, whom you say throw around the word "liberal" like an insult, despise liberal politics. They cherish their liberty and don't take kindly to those who fight to take it away.

The classical definition is:

Liberal - adjective: favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

Today's "liberals" strip the people of their liberty much more than they protect it.

[200MPHTape]

Remember IRT this country is at WAR, we are fighting and loosing soldiers and making head way! Your country's only war is against drug lords that you are losing! It is the internet that allows you to speak against our country, yes, we have agreed with you that there are some bad apples! But THIS IS WAR, not politics.......

[hyoctane303]

Honest answer, but it reduces a great country such as yours to their (terrorists) same moral level


but we let our women way more rights than they do. soooo i feel that makes up for it:D:D:D:D:D

[XtremeMotorsports]

Guys, I completely stay out of politics because it usually tends to go nowhere. Here's something to think about though. Our security vehicle division deals with both Private security firms (companies like Blackwater), Commercial Security Firms (your local rent-a-cop), Government Security Firms (Border Patrol & Homeland Security), Local Law Offorcement (Police, Sheriff, SWAT, Etc.) as well as some other agencies that I can mention. If your hung up on Water Boarding, your stuck in the middle ages when it comes to extracting information. Water Boarding is a cake walk next to actual torture. I can't get into detail but you guys need to go visit some special forces guys that are simply get the job done people and ask them what they need to do to get the job done. Then next time someone brings up dumping a pail of water on a terrorist head, then you can discuss what real torture is. I have an uncle that is Iranian. (He's more American than Iranian because he's been here so long) but ask him how the Iranian government killed his uncles. They kept them alive and really tortured them for 4 month before they died be Exsanguination drawn out over 4 days. Choking on some water isn't anything.

[Ziggy]

Maybe the terrorists need to be tortured.Imagine how torturous is was to lay beneath the rubble of the World Trade Center for 3 or 4 days and know that you were going to die.Imagine the torture for the families who knew their loved ones died in agony.
All is fair in love and war and I have freedom every day because a soldier somewhere from this wonderful country laid down his/her life for me.
God Bless our troops.

[dezerts10]

i didnt read any of the thread but. I saw an awesome bumper sticker today that said " Waterboard Berkley"

and if your not a terrorist i do not think you need to worry about being waterboarded so who the hell cares? cause the people who had it done to them sure wouldnt give a damn if it happend to you

[pjc]

Infidel.. Here you go again with your typical, US Bashing yet you live an elitist lifestyle in a glass house of rampant corruption while throwing stones across the border. PATHETIC!

[Infidel Racing Team]

Infidel.. Here you go again with your typical, US Bashing yet you live an elitist lifestyle in a glass house of rampant corruption while throwing stones across the border. PATHETIC!

One pound of cold dog crap is far more valuable than your opinion

[TreyP]

One pound of cold dog crap is far more valuable than your opinion

That is a higher value then I would have put on it.

[pjc]

Infy and Trey sitting in a tree......

Geeze you guys, why is it that you always have to result to juvenile insults when I nail you on your bias?

[AzBajaman]

Come on guys.......

[TreyP]

Infy and Trey sitting in a tree......

Geeze you guys, why is it that you always have to result to juvenile insults when I nail you on your bias?

That is so funny, as you have posted nothing other then insults to people that have a differant opinion other then yours. When you can post something of substance then maybe people will take your opinions seriously. Otherwise you are not worth the time I would grant to a neo-nazi for thier opinions.

[Ziggy]

[QUOTE=pjc;482652]Infy and Trey sitting in a tree......


A Berkeley Tree?:p

[pjc]

Infy and Trey sitting in a tree......


A Berkeley Tree?:p

Perhaps in the basement area, below the missing outdoor plumbing and under the neo-Hippies that haven't bathed in many months.

[TreyP]

Perhaps in the basement area, below the missing outdoor plumbing and under the neo-Hippies that haven't bathed in many months.

Interesting that you have fantasies of my bathing habits and plumbing. Kind of wierd if you ask me but I guess if it is your thing then go for it. I'm more of the live and let live type.

[pjc]

Interesting that you have fantasies of my bathing habits and plumbing. Kind of wierd if you ask me but I guess if it is your thing then go for it. I'm more of the live and let live type.

Just painting a picture Trey. Just painting a picture.

Can you see it?

[Shotdsherrif]

You know, a couple of months ago I signed off of RDC just because I was done with pjc and Infy. Not done with one or the other, but the two of them together, I was just done. But for some reason, this weekend, I'm in the mood for it again; maybe it was coming back and reading about both of them getting put on time-out like little schoolchildren just a couple of weeks ago (which BTW, HILARIOUS, there should be a thread about just that topic), And hey, today is our Great Nation's Birthday ... so let the fur fly! ...

I'll say this, I could give 2 s**ts about people whom we've waterboarded. Doesn't even register an iota of emotion with me. But historically ... countries who have decided to use some of these methods, like Israel to name one and also France in Algeria ... from what I know, in hindsight, it's been determined that gains were minimal and the negatives, particularly in the context of our soldiers currently in the field, outweighed any perceived advantages that might have been expected. So ... I feel we, our leaders, will sooner or later, ALSO come to this conclusion and it will by and large be good for America and good for the world. We got attacked in 2001, we perhaps panicked, we put certain options back on the table and eventually ... cooler heads will prevail. We are a civilised people after all.

Now, for the people who drone on and on and on about this or any of the other so-called objectionable things that America may have done during these last few years, I kind of see these people like a 14 year old girl ... who asks her mom if she can go to this great party in the "city" or at the "college" or someplace else where the mom knows good and well she has no business being at her age. And when she says NO, right then, the mom, becomes the most horrible and evil person in the world in the eyes of the the little girl. Because the girl can ONLY see things in the context of the security that the mom and the parents have provided for her, and at that moment there is nothing more evil than the mom who is standing in the way of her good time. She has no concept that she wouldn't have even eaten breakfast this morning if it wasn't for her mom and she definitely has no idea what would await her at a party full of adult males.

That may be a strained analogy but at the heart of it, most of the people who have critisized our country recently have never and could never imagine being in the position to make the decisions that our leaders have to make. They can only see things from the context of the "peanut gallery", the "chattering classes" as they say ...

[Kartman]

Guys, I completely stay out of politics because it usually tends to go nowhere. Here's something to think about though. Our security vehicle division deals with both Private security firms (companies like Blackwater), Commercial Security Firms (your local rent-a-cop), Government Security Firms (Border Patrol & Homeland Security), Local Law Offorcement (Police, Sheriff, SWAT, Etc.) as well as some other agencies that I can mention. If your hung up on Water Boarding, your stuck in the middle ages when it comes to extracting information. Water Boarding is a cake walk next to actual torture. I can't get into detail but you guys need to go visit some special forces guys that are simply get the job done people and ask them what they need to do to get the job done. Then next time someone brings up dumping a pail of water on a terrorist head, then you can discuss what real torture is. I have an uncle that is Iranian. (He's more American than Iranian because he's been here so long) but ask him how the Iranian government killed his uncles. They kept them alive and really tortured them for 4 month before they died be Exsanguination drawn out over 4 days. Choking on some water isn't anything.Im with you. I have quite a dew clients and friends named John Smith working for DOD over in the sandbox. Their job is not pretty but needs to be done and they are the ones to do it.

As for waterboarding, its mild and definitely not torture. Torture is something like hooking up a guys testes to a car battery.

Although I would support a change to Pork boarding or at least adding pork products to he water to ruin the suspects entry to paradise in the afterlife or whatever they believe.

[pjc]

Torture is something like hooking up a guys testes to a car battery.


Kinda like that old dude in San Felipe with the magneto box, lamp cord and copper tubes..

YEOW!!!!


Although I would support a change to Pork boarding or at least adding pork products to he water to ruin the suspects entry to paradise in the afterlife or whatever they believe.

You know my "Mr Woo" solution, right?

[XtremeMotorsports]

No, that's just shock therapy. They still do that in mental institutions today. Torture is pulling the urethra out through the head of your penis while you scream in pain. Torture is drilling a small hole in your brain while you kick in pain and injecting battery acid through a small tube into your brain while it slowly vegetates you. Torture is strapping one leg each to a winch on the opposite sides of the room while the slowly pull you apart 1" at a time. At 6" to 8" your guts start to fall out on the ground. Of course your body will pass out when it can't handle anymore. That's why they stop and wake you back up before continuing. Puts a whole different spin on dumping a bucket of water on someone's head now doesn't it?

[DaveGores]

No, that's just shock therapy. They still do that in mental institutions today. Torture is pulling the urethra out through the head of your penis while you scream in pain. Torture is drilling a small hole in your brain while you kick in pain and injecting battery acid through a small tube into your brain while it slowly vegetates you. Torture is strapping one leg each to a winch on the opposite sides of the room while the slowly pull you apart 1" at a time. At 6" to 8" your guts start to fall out on the ground. Of course your body will pass out when it can't handle anymore. That's why they stop and wake you back up before continuing. Puts a whole different spin on dumping a bucket of water on someone's head now doesn't it?

Not to liberals it doesn't. I swear if soldiers were tickling these guys, liberals would call it torture.

[Racbaja]

How the hell does someone who lives in the **** hole we call Mexico know anything about extracting intel. Were you with the local police in TJ or perhaps one of the many drug cartels running your Country?

I did go through the SERE course and can tell you it wasn’t a cake walk. I spent 5 years with a Special Forces Unit and guess what? I did intel. I was assigned to a couple of Counter Intelligence Teams and water boarding does work. If I had to guess I would say we had a 95% success rate with water boarding. Water boarding is a very mild way to extract foreign intelligence and not a preferred choice for extraction. We had limits on the methods we could utilize in the field and this probably cost lives, as we were in other Countries assisting others. One of my buddies was good friends with a D-force guy, these guys know how to get things done. I am not here for debate, just setting the record straight and by the way I am a proud American.

Ron Plunkett

[Infidel Racing Team]

How the hell does someone who lives in the **** hole we call Mexico know anything about extracting intel. Were you with the local police in TJ or perhaps one of the many drug cartels running your Country?



What would do you think it would happen to my account in this forum if I called your country the same thing you called mine?

Remember, far better members of this forum have been banned for doing what you just did, so tone it down NOW.:mad: I am not tight up about people calling me or my country names, but If its so, then I demand reciprocity in the same terms.

You being in Intel it doesn't add a bit to the argument, as far I am concern If the Pope would bring the inquisition again still it wouldn't be right.

Yes, the drug cartels running crazy here, it is a reality which I don't get offended by it...I am sad about it but It is reality, my post describes a reality which you are part of it...just because you work for it you think its practical and ethically correct....and remember all those cartels must have American counterparts to make the whole drug business work, so you are not off the hook

Now let this thread die or get it on track

[JRod]

What would do you think it would happen to my account in this forum if I called your country the same thing you called mine?

Remember, far better members of this forum have been banned for doing what you just did, so tone it down NOW.:mad: I am not tight up about people calling me or my country names, but If its so, then I demand reciprocity in the same terms.

As far as you being in Intel it doesn't add a bit to the argument, as far I am concern If the Pope would bring the inquisition again still it wouldn't be right.

As far as the drug cartels running crazy here, it is a reality which I don't get offended by it...I am sad about it but It is reality, my post describes a reality which you are part of it...just because you work for it you think its practical and ethically correct....

Now let this thread die or get it on track


Yeah, we have rules!

NO THROWING OF STONES IN GLASS HOUSES!!! :eek: :D

[Infidel Racing Team]

Its funny when there is a huge amount of Baja Bashing threads in the forum (some well founded and some not) and when yours truly here brings a contemporary subject in the news the Americans all of sudden take offense and shout: "Fix your own country before talking about mine".

This would be a very silent planet if we all followed that advise...maybe for the better. In any rate, I cant be as annoying as those over exaggerated evil Baja posts since I am just one very opinionated little Mexican.

[Shotdsherrif]

Gustavo,

I don't agree with anyone insulting your country to make a point. But I do agree that you have LESS than ZERO place standing in judgment of any American on an issue like this.

First of all, nobody on this board was responsible for making any executive decision to use any tactic in this war. And honestly, if you asked the typical Mexican citizen, if they'd agree to the use of this so-called "torture" to deal with some of the things going on in TJ, I'm can guarantee you a lot of them would be for it. So how are they any different from any of the people here?

I get what you're trying to do. But I'm going to give you a piece of advice. You seem to have a tin ear for how people in this country really think. And if you're really interested in learning, I suggest you stop taking your cues on American values from the BBC.

[Vtr_Racing]

Its possible the guy just doesnt like Mexico. I dont feel the same but some people do. Bad expierience or whatever, its just another opinion thats voiced. Just like yours.