Air Bags

[redline]

Does anybody know what kind of air bags were used on some of the old trophy trucks?

[ACID_RAIN28]

most likely they were firestones. Which trucks were you refering to? I am running similar ones on the front of my truck.

Anyone can escape into sheep, we are all geniuses when we dream.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ACID_RAIN28 on 12/16/02 10:26 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

[rdc]

No Air Bags, just 5 Point Harneses. Firestone is the largest maker of Air Bags for suspensions, with at least 100 designs available. Trophy Trucks premired in 1994 and I have never seen one with Air Bag Suspension. Rob drove the Nye Frank Air Shock setup in 95 (I think).

[FABRICATOR]

I don't recall any on actual Trophy Trucks. The George's (makers of Funco cars) had a mid-engined truck with IRS and air bags at all 4 corners. (The truck was a lot like Letners truck. Another truck like that, but without airbags, was the Castex truck, built by Raceco I think) As I recall the George's truck had shock absorbers mounted right through the middle of the air bags. It looked nifty, but never seemed to ride just right. Racers (including myself) messed with air/gas suspension for years on MX bikes. I came to the distinct conclusion that is is not practical. It would pump up and then sack out in an unpredicable maner. It can work very well in conjunction with springs.

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>

[Bryan_D]

Didnt McCraken or McCakren(sp?) try a airbag setup on a truck in the 90's some time?

[Waldo]

Rob MacCachren drove a Ford TT built by Frank Nye in 95-96 if I recall. It was equipped with air shocks as Ramsey stated above. I watched them unload the truck from their rig at the 95 Laughlin race. The truck looked like a lowered TT. The driver could put air in it, when necessary, to get the desired ride height. It was pretty trick. Didn't they get protested for this reason?

Confucius Say - "For every man who do Flying-W, come down with nuts in mouth."

[partybarge_pilot]

He was protested in CORR for the airshocks.

[desertracer]

Weren't the shocks on that truck liquid cooled or something with water? I just remember it rising up as they either added air or it warmed up. I might be way off but it was sure a fun truck to watch.

[redline]

the nye truck was the truck that i was referring to and was wondering how the set-up worked. I was told the truck was for sale. Anybody know anything about that? Who made the air bag/shocks?

[partybarge_pilot]

Frank Nye makes his own shock's. Yes, they are liquid cooled.

[JCA]

Didn't Johnny Johnson use to run a airbag set up on his old prerunner?? That thing worked real good. I got to ride in it a long time ago and was just getting into this stuff. I didn't know what to look at and didn't know what I was looking at when I did look.

J.C. Andrews
Andrews Racing
www.andrewsracing.com (http://)

[Dave_G]

Ok, this doesn't qualify as a trophy truck with air bags but this is the car that started the experimentation into air bag suspension in off road racing. I helped build this car back in the early 80's for Dick Landfield at Enduro Racing before the Dave Ashley days came along. The car was a Mickey Thompson stadium truck and was driven by John Swift.

These pics were taken in the underground pits at the stadium in Montreal Canada at a short course race. Note the front air bag suspension struts....

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Dave_G]

Here's a close up of the front airbag strut. And yes, that's one of the very first bypass shocks ever built for off road racing. Check out those massive bypass tubes! Wooo hooo!

Dave


"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Dave_G]

Here was the nice part about this car. If you smoked an engine you just unbolted the front half of the car at the firewall and rolled it away exposing the Cosworth engine. It was easy to change. The motor was a Ford Cosworth BDG (Belt Drive Grenade) ;-)

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Dave_G]

Here's what the car looked like after the front end was rolled away and the engine was exposed for working on it.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Brian Mapes]

Hah, thats pretty cool. Thats a good idea, the front have unbolting and sliding away. Its probably not as strong though.

say goodbye to a tangerine sky
say hello, say hello to tomorrow.

[Dave_G]

Here's a photo of the single rear link that connected the rear end to the air bag swing arm. Only a single airbag was used in the rear as opposed to the front. As you can see roll stiffness was a problem with this design so lots of attention had to be paid to the anti rollbar system in the rear.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Dave_G]

If you look closely at this pic you can see the aluminum boxed swing arm behind the shocks. The rod end pivots for the swing arm are located just under the oil tank.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Dave_G]

ok, last pic. Here a view of the rear of the car from the top. Note the single airbag.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[bpthirteen]

Johnny experimented with airbags on his S-10 prerunner, but he didn't like it and installed coil springs instead.

http://www.prepbyjake.com

[Dave_G]

Re: "Its probably not as strong though."

Why?

;-)

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Brian Mapes]

I said "It's probably not as strong though becuase where the front end bolts to the rest of the truck and frame would probably be a weak point. I am not saying it isn't strong, I am just saying that I thought that it wouldn't be as strong as one full piece. I might be wrong.

say goodbye to a tangerine sky
say hello, say hello to tomorrow.

[jwfab1]

Funco sandcars uses airbag shock absorbers. I think they are King.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pe7a077230053f2bd2e9af2d06af22d15/fcec6c5f.jpg>http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pe7a077230053f2bd2e9af2d06af22d15/fcec6c5f.jpg</A>

[bajaruner11]

His name is Nye Frank, and yes the shocks do have a water jacket for coolant flow that in tern changes the shocks disposition. Also I have never heard of any trophy truck using air bags as of yet.

[ACID_RAIN28]

If you get a chance to look at the truck at the laughlin race inspect his shocks, they are crazy. I have tried to break down the assymbly process but I get lost when it comes time to wrap the sleeve on it for the coolant. Also the engine collant is what runs through the shocks, good idea, but potentially hazerdous to the life of the car in a race, but then again it wouldn't be raceing if it were not that way.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[ntsqd]

The problem with using air as a spring medium is that your pre-load is going to change, rather radically compared to what we're used to in a coil spring, with temp. Which is why they go to such exotic lengths to cool the 'springs' and dampers. Would not suprise me to learn that Nye Frank's units don't have air in them, but rather have nitrogen in them.

TS

I used swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.

[rdc]

"If you get a chance to look at the truck at the Laughlin race inspect his shocks, they are crazy."

That truck hasn't been seen at a race in years, and it is my understanding that it was converted to coilover, and may have been wadded up and not repaired. Does anyone know where the truck is now?

"The problem with using air as a spring medium is that your pre-load is going to change, rather radically compared to what we're used to in a coil spring, with temp. Which is why they go to such exotic lengths to cool the 'springs' and dampers. Would not surprise me to learn that Nye Frank's units don't have air in them, but rather have nitrogen in them."

They definitely have Nitrogen in them, no one uses "air" in an race shock. The water jackets around the shocks are not only for cooling but are also used to heat them. In reality the goal is to get them to, and keep them at a certain operating temperature. When the Truck was rolled off the trailer it almost sat on the ground until the engine warmed up and the water temperature got in the normal operating range and heated the shock, expanding the shock, oil and Nitrogen thus raising the pressures to where they wanted them. Providing the proper "pre-load" and spring rate. They are also not just "springs," they have dampening, i.e. Oil, Piston, and Valving. Other than that the pressures were not adjustable on the fly. My understand is that on the short course truck which used a similar shocks, they actually used warming devices to bring them up to temperature before the race.

[toddz]

the nye truck was the truck that i was referring to and was wondering how the set-up worked. I was told the truck was for sale. Anybody know anything about that? Who made the air bag/shocks?
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

The last time I saw the Nye Frank/MacCachren truck was at the SEMA Show in '01. Todd Clement owned it and had his Wide Open Baja decals all over it. The suspension was gone and he had solid tubing stuts in their place. Strictly a roller..... Don't know if Todd still owns it or not?

Todd Z.

[elcaprerunner]

I do not know where the Rob Mac truck is now, or if it is now converted to coilovers. Nye Frank and Dave Clark built it, and Dave Clark also built Kyle Taylor's new Trophy Truck. They are the same design accept Kyle's was originally built with King coilover/bypass and Rob's was originally built Nye's air shocks. Other than that, they are the same design truck right down to the fiberglass, the only differance is the paint job. And yes, Kyle's truck does sit pretty damn low compared to some other TT's, even with coilovers. I have a picture of Rob's but I can not get it to work for the attachment, but maybe NOODLE can post it when he gets on later, he is the one who sent it to me. Dave and Nye also built Dondell's old class 1 which was sold to Riviera, and then they sold it but I don't know who bought it, but it was at contingency at the Vegas 200. It also uses Nye's air shocks.

DIRT'S FOR RACING, PRERUNNERS ARE FOR GETTING THERE!

H.O.R.E.
Hemet Off-Road Enthusiests

[John_Bitting]

The truck is called Mighty Mouse. I think it was sold to Todd Clement from Lonny Hembolt it was supposedly going to be converted and nothing ever came of it.

"faster than it looks"

[ACID_RAIN28]

foul, heating up nitrogen does not change pressure or desity i belive that is why they use it in tires for all road racing. because nitrogen is consitant. I know that the "air shocks" are not actually "air" but nitrogen. As for oil in them, wouldn't they be called just a shock then? Unless they were constructed in a two part system like so on the attatchment

.


Dave Clark and Nye built the Nick baldwin car that was 4wd with motor in the back and was red and what ever color. Dale traded nick for the car that won laughlin and then got rid of the 4wd car cause they couldn't get it to ride right, to much buck in the rear i belive. No idea where it is now, think he kept the motor and that is what is in the TT

Nye built the car that won laughlin. Mig welded chassis chevy v6

I don't know what truck you are refering to that hasn't seen a race in years, but I was refering to the new one that dale has, and has not seen a race yet, hence the term NEW. ALL around "nitrogen shocks" to be politicaly correct.

The water jackets keep the shocks cool and warm, thermal stasis in a sense.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[ACID_RAIN28]

In the attatchment I belive they are constructed in a two part system. one chamber is filled with the nitrogen giving it the spring feel to it, and then below is the oil part of the system. And if I can recall properly his shock bodies are long while having a short throw to them. I guess I could just ask nye and cut out all the BS.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[rdc]

Foul, I don't think so!

"heating up nitrogen does not change pressure or desity"

Heating or cooling any molecular structure should cause it to expand or contract, respectively. Re: Nitrogen, it can be cooled and compressed in to a liquid at one extreme that I am sure everyone is familiar with. Within the temperature ranges that a shock operates, N2 (Nitrogen Gas) is very stable and that is one reason why it is used. I would agree that it is primarily the expansion of the oil as it heats up, that compresses the Nitrogen charge and increases the pressure in the shock. As you can see below N (Nitrogen) is affected by heat or the loss of it.

Name: Nitrogen
Symbol: N
Atomic Number: 7
Atomic Mass: 14.00674 amu
Melting Point: -209.9 °C (63.250008 °K, -345.81998 °F)
Boiling Point: -195.8 °C (77.35 °K, -320.44 °F)

Nitrogen is also used because it restricts oxidation. If "Air" was used oxidation of the oil would be a real problem. Under the temperatures and pressure in a shock the oil would "burn" if oxygen were present. In fact over time shock oil does burn, because it is impossible to get all of the oxygen out of the shock and oil.

"As for oil in them, wouldn't they be called just a shock then? Unless they were constructed in a two part system"

I have never seen one of these Nye Frank shocks apart, but other racing "Air Shocks" that I am familiar with rely on the displacement of oil into a reservoir, by the volume of the shaft as it travels into the shock body. The displaced oil compresses the Nitrogen charge on the other side of a separator piston, increasing the pressure. Some racing Air Shocks are an "emulsion shock" with nothing separating the oil and Nitrogen charge, but the same prosperities apply. Because there are no other "standard shocks" on these Nye Frank setups, the Air Shock must be handling the dampening by passing oil through valuing.

"4wd car... No idea where it is now"

It is at Spirit Racing with a cracked trans case. Jimmy Nuckles(sp) (Previous ProTruck Champion) owns it.

I just looked at the drawing of your “two part system” it needs some more thought. Two questions: Where does the oil displaced by the shock shaft go or come from?
And: How will the oil pass through the “standard flow piston” if the “sealed piston” at the top of the shaft moves in tandem with it? No oil will pass through the piston.

It would by interesting to hear from Nye.

[NOODLE]

Here is the pic of the Air Shock TT. I would not say it is identical to Taylors down to the fiberglass. i watched taylors fiberglass get massaged and the front end is one of a kind . Taylors TT does share some design with the Nye truck but it is not identical The suspension design is similiar but not exactly the same. Rather, improvements were made on a previous design.

H.O.R.E.
Hemet Off-Road Enthusiasts

[NOODLE]

Here is another pic!!!

H.O.R.E.
Hemet Off-Road Enthusiasts

[ACID_RAIN28]

My understanding.

Nitrogen is used in the shocks because of moisture issue.
Q. IF IT CHANGES MOLECULAR STRUCTURE WHEN UNDER DIFFEERNT HEAT AND PREASURE CONDITIONS, WHY DOES NASCAR USE IT IN THIER TIRES, AS WELL AS NHRA TEAMS.

I thought that the whole reason for the nitrogen was that it was more predictible than air, so that is why it is used in the indy, nascar, nhra tires. Recalling from a RPM tonight story long time ago, they said that nitrogen was used in the tires because that with the changes in temp the nitrogen would not change in pressure, ie expansion, i could be wrong though.

Some racing Air Shocks are an "emulsion shock" with nothing separating the oil and Nitrogen charge, but the same prosperities apply. You cannot mix nitro and oil togather, in bilstiens there is a seperator ring between the two chambers. they are asseymbled and then charged from the top with gas, then the top eyelet is welded in. This is true for all emulsion shocks i belive.

As for my picture, it was a small and quick 60 sec referance that I just made so that my thoughts could be followed. I am told that my mind is faster than my mouth or hands. I can provide you with a precise tenical drawing of it all. I just wanted to illistrate how it could be done, I have ponderd how for months and for some reason that came to me while reading your reply. I am pretty sure that is how it is done. excellent point on the seal piston problem.......ahh resevore at the bottom similar to smiths

last point, It was my understanding that shocks were pressureized to prevent airation of the oil, leading to piston cavitation and seal wear.

man my spelling needs some work sorry

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[ACID_RAIN28]

that one is different than the one dale has, it is longer. From the looks of that one in the picture they put simmilar amounts of caster in the front, somewhere around 15deg i think.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[Kritter]

"I thought that the whole reason for the nitrogen was that it was more predictible than air"
dead nutz on the head....cant dial in somehting that is not predictable!

Kris
"Buy American before it's too late..."

[redline]

from my understanding nitrogen is more predictable. But it still does expand and contract just it is not drastic as oxygen is. and also i agree that all air charged shocks have a dividing piston wether it is in the resevior on shock body (such as an emulsion) because other wise you would have cavitation.

[ACID_RAIN28]

I am positve that it would expand and contract when reacting to different conditions, just not as severe as would air, which is no just one gas, but a mixture of junk matter as I call it. I will make a new techincal drawing of the shock and see if yall can follow my line, or correct the errors.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[RacerX]

Here is a pic of one of Nye Franks's air shocks. This is off the class 1 car that Rivierra and Dondels drove.

[bpthirteen]

That truck is now owned by the Hunters who race in class 10. I don't know what they plan on doing with it.

http://www.prepbyjake.com

[BIG_FAT_LOSER]

And all this actually applys to about 1% of the vechiles owned on this board......At least I now know the physical properties of nitrogen...whoo hooo!!!

It ain't rocket science, It's off road, drive the damn thing.

If your gunna go.........go Ghetto...

[Bryan_D]

Ya I understand the compounds of what the trucks are made of now if I just new how to put them together correctly. I need to figure out a way one day to weld aluminum and steel together. All of my chem classes have to be good for something.

[jwfab1]

EXW, Explosion Welding, that's the only way!!!

[ntsqd]

It's not the only way, but it is the best way. The other way is so ghetto I'm not even going to explain it. :)

TS

I used swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.

[ACID_RAIN28]

Dave Tuner has this Torpedo rod as he calls it, for glueing all sorts of ferrous and no ferrous metals togather, but I never dug into it because I didn't think it would do me any good at this point.

As for the Shock pics...ahhhhhh it makes since now, haven't seen the car since it sat forever in dales glass shop. Notice how there are only two tubes for the bypass, but they are linked in a way that there is no need for two long tubes one complete unit for comp and a minimal one for rebound, but serves the whole stroke. As for my quick diagram I made, I have thrown it out because it can't be the internal structure of that shock. My next guess would be In the large shaft, perhaps hollowed out with some sort of "air spring" inside but I don't know how you could adj the pressure, no valve. I hope to fiqure it out with out having to call him and be told how it is done.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS.......DROP THE "HAMMER"!

[AZmiik]

RE: EXW, Explosion Welding, that's the only way!!!

Ship builders have been known to use Ultrasonic welding to make steel/aluminum blanks for attacing super structure to the ship deck. I would also say that a few other friction welding processes could be made to work.

[Bryan_D]

Forget all of the EXW and what not, I just want to make a stronger JB weld or maybe some super duct tape. Gotta live that ghetto fab lifestyle.

[ntsqd]

You can buy a strip of 1" x 1" that is half aluminum and half mild steel. First time I ever saw it was in the hands of a ship fabricator (Builds stuff for the Navy). He said it runs about $100 foot and that it's made by roughing up one side of the steel, then laying it and some aluminum in a trench lined with explosives. KAWHOOOM !!! and it's permantently stuck together.

TS

I used swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.

[jwfab1]

Thats EXP, Explosion Welding, but less commonly done in water. Ship biulding was the reason it was developed. Steel hull and aluminum super structure.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jwfab1 on 12/19/02 04:38 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

[Dave_G]

Re: He said it runs about $100 foot"

DAMN! .... and I thought Maraging was expensive.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."