Building 40x40 Shop-any hints?

[johnowhite]

Finally got the OK from the little lady to build a shop at the house.

Thinking about 40x40 with an assymetric lift or two, would like to see some pictures, if you could guide me to, or send me some pictures or drawings, I would appreciate it.

Probably will have an upstairs two bedroom apartment 700 sq ft (so we can live in it and rent the house out to pay for the garage....figure it should take about 5 years.)

Would like to build a nice 1 car, maintain the cars we have, and bench race a little.

Would like to make it nice, but not crazy nice. It will have functional fab, upholstery, mechanical capabilities.

Thanks for your help.

John
johnowhite@hotmail.com

[McClintock]

Go bigger, thank me later!

[Msquared]

yeah, build it at my house....:D

[fashionbiff]

Well the only thing I can think of before you move into it get the floor coated. Fumes will kill you otherwise. I do not know how the different coatings act to welding but a light gray floor really helps brighten up the work area. Which means less lighting

[OneUpFabrication]

heated and air conditioned its the best thing my buddys ever done. maybe some sort of hoist from the roof to like out motors with ease... the choices are endless.

[Rocket 450]

I say go 60x40 at least if you plan on a apt upstairs.You may want go larger than 700 sq ft.especially if its going to be two bedrooms 2 10x10 bedrooms is 200 sq ft a bathroom adds 40 or so. Add a decent size kitchen, laundry, and living/dining room and that 700 ft gets burned up pretty quick. Also below the Apt you will want a bathroom a office and probably a motor room. Then on the other side a mezzinzine would be nice to store stuff out of the way.

So your 40x40(1600 ft) srinks down pretty quick. Dosnt leave a lot of room for more than one lift.
Another good idea is to pour the slab 20ft wide on one side.And build a carport, Your can store your trailer under there. Or allow parking for the apt

[srmumz]

Think long term......
Power, Heat/AC, Plumbing...Are you going to have a lift? You will need at least a 12-14' ceiling for this. What size doors do you need? If you plan on parking a MH in it at some time make room for it. Do you plan on just fabricating or do you plan on a Multi-use shop.....metal / wood / paint????? =clean rooms

I am now on my third shop (sorry guys, my current shop us for wood only it is only 900sf, has 3 phase power, lts of windows and Heat/HVAC) and have had to learn the hard way about proper planning. Before you even turn a blade go down to the town and find out what you can get away with. Call Edison or whoever your power company is and see if they will even supply you with 3 phase. Talk to local contractors and see if they have done any other projects similar to what you are considering and go see them. Your doing the right thing asking questions here.

Homework....homework....homework.
What you are proposing is no different than building a 2-3000sf house. And will cost just as much!

[Ryno]

1600 sq ft is alot of open area. Like everyone else says, plan, plan, plan. Think about which way the floor joist run, make it easier to run your mechanical for your mother-in-law apt. (That's what they're called). If you can build a shop for $60 sq/ft, you'll be doing good.

[johnowhite]

Thanks for your suggestions.

So, what will fit is 40x50. Got it mostly drawn, 12 foot ceilings, the 700sq. ft. granny flat is the biggest allowed, it will be "efficient."

Is there a local place to get "Clamshell" Doors? I saw them at the airport, they hinge accross the top and middle (horizontally) and the bottom lifts. I looks like something like this could work completely on the outside, so the inside ceiling would be clear.

Thanks for your suggestions, will post some drawings soon.

[XtremeMotorsports]

Order a steel building! 40 X 60 building, fully insulated, a single 12 X 12 roll up door, one side 30 X 70 door, engineering, concrete foundation, 200 AMP electrical service, 4 skylights, separate bathroom, exterior gutters and downspouts is $46,500 installed based on concrete at $105 per yard. This doesn't include interior electrical plugs but you can go to home depot set it up with a dozen receptacles and a couple 220 receptacles for that for less than a $450. it's about $3,800 if you want the floor epoxy coated. We just had one quoted. four lowbay 400 watt metal halide fixtures were $96 each plus another $1,200 for electrical to operate them. It's less than $22 per square foot with the epoxy floors and light fixtures.

[Ryno]

As far as a "clamshell" door, if I'm right about the termage used, they are a pain in the ass. Get a canister type roll up. Only takes up about 18" of space out from the wall, and self contained.

If YOU are building a shop, take the Steel Building out of the picture. They are great for their purpose. Good luck getting a mother-in-law apartment in one.

[Ziggy]

I would not even consider less than 14' ceilings for resale and you can get a "semi"inside.6" slab with 4000lbs PSI with a frame bar embedded in the concretes 2' thick edges.
I made the mistake of 12' ceilings and was limited when I sold it.

[johnowhite]

Ziggy,

Thanks for the 14' idea. I really thought about that one hard. That 2 feet really changes the complection of what is happening.

If we were in a different area, and I had really good access, this would be 14'.

The RV repair place has 12' doors, "Conventional construction" allows a 10' braced wall panel height, so I was going to use a stem wall 8" wide and 2" high above the finished floor to get the 12' high ceiling.

OK Clamshell, or two piece doors are out.
It looks like the doors might most easily work on a track and hang. Dad had some like this on his garage....in a 20's vintage house. Could put "Clavos" and make them look very Spanish style. Negatives on those?

Granny flat size - city only allows 700 sq ft. max.

Heat - gas, definitly.

Thanks guys

John

[WoodyW]

Use roll-ups, they def. use the least space. Here's a pic of my shop door (12x12') The concrete truck drove right thru that opening.

There are many good suggestions here...if you can, put in as many skylights as is practical. Coming from someone who works in a shop that is like a cave right now...natural light will perk you up a lot more than high bay lighting or fluor. fixtures!
I went with 10 of them on my new place.

Go big on the slab...6" min. And make sure you poke a couple of extra conduit sweeps through the slab...you never know what you might want to add later, and it's nice to have an access point other than punchin a hole in the wall.

Think about ventilation...I'm running some big squirrel cage fans that will push fumes/ heat out of the dormer vents.

If you need a cheap door...there are two more like mine in my shop just waiting to go up in a new home! (they'll go 12 wide x up to 14 tall)

[pontoontodd]

you'll probably want a level spot at least big enough for one car, the rest probably angled out or towards a drain. consider radiant floor heating too. i've heard concrete dye isn't as slippery as painting when it gets wet.

you should run the air lines at a downward slope from the compressor to the opposite corner of the shop. then where your drop downs are have the line tee off to your hose. the bottom of the tee should go down another foot or two with a drain at the bottom. that'll keep most of the water from getting to your air tools and compressor. also put it outside (covered) or in an enclosed room (w/ furnace/boiler?) to keep the noise down.

[Ziggy]

Don't forget the 220v for the welder and hoist.Depending upon where you live the radiant heated floor is the most edfficent way to heat. There is also a rebate from PG@E and the Feds for not burning fossil fuel.
A center floor drain for washouts is always handy.I also put 2 large doors opposite each other at each end so I could drive in and drive out with a trailer on.

[pontoontodd]

other heating thoughts-
if you use forced air, a single furnace filter will clog up with dust in a few weeks. at least build a box sticking out of the normal filter hole with five filters (one on each side). not sure what the laws are in CA, some of the shops here burn used motor oil in fuel oil heaters. also questionable legally and ask your insurance agent, but others burn wood from tree trimming services. both sources of fuel should be free.

[johnowhite]

WoodyW - Thanks for the pictures on your shop! That's what I'm looking for! You are right on about the skylights, I planned on using 6. Like the way the light shines through your framing. Like your trusses too.

Ziggy and pontoontodd

Opposing doors work great, did that for my son's garage. Might be able to work a deal with my neighbor for pull-through access.

FLOOR DRAINS! Totally forgot about those. 3 phase isn't available, we're using a couple of phase converters now in the garage, will transfer to the shop.

Would LOVE to burn used motor oil, if I can do it safely and legally.

Level area is a def. priority, plan on placing a few heavy beams (slightly rusted extras from work) level and tie in with rebar to have a level/square ref and to straighten bent pieces. The welder at work suggested this too.

Thanks Guys!

John

[diirk]

Forget the 12' doors. Get 14'. The majority of RV are just over 12' tall. And for later resell value, "RV Storage" will go a long way. I have 12' doors on mine, and regret it every time I can't put my trailer in the shop.

As for the size, just get it as big as you can. Even with my 40x40 steel building, it seems I run out of room quickly. I had my friends 1 car in there and I'd swear it took up half the shop. I'm planning to reorganize it now. So if anyone has a floor plan of how their shop is layed out, I'm sure we would all appreciate it.

[westtexasbaja]

If you end up using just a pre-engineered metal building, I would add expanded metal or hog panels or even another layer of metal sheets to the inside of the exterior walls from floor to 8'-0" or so. Anything to increase security. It's very easy to cut (I've seen it cut with a hatchet) through the thin sheets or even take the wall screws out and walk right in. I've also seen cmu (block) up to 8'-0" then metal building for the rest. Nothing like having some meth-head roll away with a project that's consumed a year of your life...

G.

[diirk]

That's a good point, I hadn't really thought of that.
Then again, anyone coming into my yard has to get by our Rott mix, Husky mix and wolf mix. Good luck with that....:D

[johnowhite]

Just keeping you posted....Finally getting this design worked-out. To go big (high) the city wants a breezeway between the house and garage. This actually works out well since it will allow for running the utilities (except sewer) overhead. 40x50 will work nicely and give us a granny flat (700 sq ft) with a private entrance so we can rent it out and have it pay for itsself.

The association needs to approve. If this gets self-built for 150k, we'll be thrilled.

Please send pictures of your projects and the hints, like floor drains, ect. Keep them coming!

Thank you.

John

[whosthatcowboy]

WoodyW.. Thanks for the photos of your shop... I like the block walls... I've been considering a new shop at my place also.... I was thinking about a nice wood building with 8 inch exterior walls and nice wood siding or stucco. I haven't looked into the block walls because I didn't think of that... I was thinking 8 inch walls with extra insulation because of the summer time heat... Did you happen to check what the difference is between block and 'tilt up concrete'??
I'd also suggest the roll up doors in the coastal areas... I was going to use insulated hanger doors that fold up like the clamshell in my next shop... I have those on my hanger in Wyoming and they make a big difference keeping the temp nice inside.. whether it's hot out or below zero... insulated big doors are nice...
I also aggree on 14 foot or taller ceilings if possible... same for door height if room for a semi or Prevost bus is available to get into and out of the shop... Better resale value as well..... I talked to a metal building company some time back and he said that when pricing a metal building "bigger is cheaper" .... so that 40x50 should be a 'better value' than one that's 40x40 .... Then again it's all relative to one's bank account and property size... or the local politicians and neighbors....
When it's finished I think there should be a BBQ and 'shop warming' party... advertise that along with 'gifts kindley accepted for the shop and racecar' ...

[diirk]

With metal buildings there are a lot of good deals to be had. Usually from someone ordering one then backing out. If you're not locked into a size, those are the best deals. If I recall, we did our 40x40 for around $35k, including permits. We did some of it ourselves and sub'd out parts. Then again, it's still not finished nor insulated. We're always adding in electrical as needed. I would recommend sealing the floors. The epoxy on ours is great.

[pjc]

Interesting thread.

We are planning a new place now but may wait another year of the RE market persists down.

Here is what I am planning.

* Southwest style stucco exterior walls with flat roof where I plan to put our PV panels.
* 35'x45'
* 12'w x 13.5'h door and 9w x 9h door
* Loft over half the area for storage.
* 6" thick floor
* Drywall only in shop work area, @ 1/3rd.
* Thin galvanized steel up to wainscoting at 5' in work area.
* RV AC, Water and Sewer Hookup inside
* Epoxy Floor

I want to do this for $55 a sq ft.

[Ryno]

John-

I'll get you some pics of my dad's shop. He's got 2 bays, one with an in-ground hoist, then spots for 10 cars, with a granny flat overhead. $150K doesn't sound bad. I would try to put all utilities underground, much easier to deal with, and you're going to be tearing up the ground anyways.

Pat- If you're getting something like that done for $55/ft somebody owes you money, or you're building it in Mexico. BTW...Concrete went up $6/yd this month, another $6 next month, and that's just what we (large bridge company) pay. If you can get concrete for $100 a yd, you'd be doing good.

[WoodyW]

Hey Ryno...you guys should use Rancho for concrete. I just paid 85$ a yard for 6 yards on friday, and last Friday I paid $90 a yard for 6 yards - no short load charges and they only got me for $30 bucks on the Enviro fee and fuel (and I don't have a hook-up there!). Really good mud too...

[westtexasbaja]

was thinking 8 inch walls with extra insulation because of the summer time heat...

R-values:
8" cmu = 1.11
3/4" plywood = 0.94
8" concrete = 0.64

The r-value of just block (cmu) is not as good as you'd expect. Even adding foam inserts or loose/spray foam (inside the cmu) does not raise it much. And in some cases, an empty air cavity of any width has more r-value than cmu. Problem is the cmu absorbs heat and holds it. Then releases it slowly after heat source (sun) is gone. Works the opposite as well: your heater in winter trying to warm up the wall that might have contact with soil (retaining wall). Soil & wall just keep absorbing the heat from inside. Higher r-values can be obtained with wood or metal. Don't get me wrong, cmu is a great product, just got to know what to expect. Main trick is to separate an outer layer from an inner layer to keep the energy from transferring through. Use a combination of materials.

And build eaves!!!!!! Best way to keep cool is for the sun to not get on the wall to begin with...........

Of course if you're in a cold climate, you may want that cmu wall to store and keep the heat to be released over the next several hours after the sun goes down.

http://www.e-star.com/ecalcs/table_rvalues.html

http://www.maconline.org/tech/design/cavitywalls/cavitywalls.html

Grayson

[Ryno]

Woody-

we've always used 4th St, Prior to them going to Robertsons. Is Rancho who poured your main slab? I know once you use a smaller company, they will often keep you on the same scale. We use Cemex and Robertsons for work (Yeager) so we go through them, it's just easier. I don't know what they're paying per yard, but last year we did 27 bridges. That's alot of mud.

[WoodyW]

Actually I used Rancho for the footings (45yds) and grout (28yds). Robertsons mud went into my slab (65 yds) and the circle drive in front of my house (another 30!). I have been really happy with the Rancho mud. I know they are usually happy when I call.

You work for Yeager? Do you know Bill Perkins? Or Chris Venable when he was over there?

Westtexas---you are right on the money on how cmu absorbs and releases heat. I really like the permanance of it though...and the soundproofing is nice too. It's nice to be able to pressure wash the floors and walls and not have to worry about water vs. wood.
A good attic ventilation fan and a swamp cooler on casters does the trick for me.

[Ziggy]

Interesting thread.

We are planning a new place now but may wait another year of the RE market persists down.

Here is what I am planning.

* Southwest style stucco exterior walls with flat roof where I plan to put our PV panels.
* 35'x45'
* 12'w x 13.5'h door and 9w x 9h door
* Loft over half the area for storage.
* 6" thick floor
* Drywall only in shop work area, @ 1/3rd.
* Thin galvanized steel up to wainscoting at 5' in work area.
* RV AC, Water and Sewer Hookup inside
* Epoxy Floor

I want to do this for $55 a sq ft.


Pat,
I built a 60x80 in 2001 for $33 a foot.If I subtract the cost of the lot, the actual building cost me $25 a foot.I did 50% of the work myself. It was a wood frame with steel siding on 3 sides and a stucco front.3x14' doors with 800 ft of finished office space and a 6" slab.This included a septic system and gas overhead heating in one half of the building. Unless the prices have doubled in 7 years $55 is not unreasonable.

[Ryno]

Keywords is 50% of the work by yourself. My foreman put a steel building up for 18k. Uninsulated, no power, etc. His is 1500sq ft.

In Southern California, it's top dollar, anywhere else (Vegas, Arizona) you'll pay less.

[johnowhite]

35x45 is 1575 sq. ft., 60x80 is 4800 sq ft.

It might be less costly per sq ft to build a 4,800 sq ft shell than a 1600 sq ft shell. (1/3 the area 1600/4800 but 57% of the wall length 160 ft of wall for the 1600 sq ft building and 280 ft of wall for the 4800 sq ft building.)

So, the bigger you build, the cheaper per sq ft, to some extent. $55 should be very doable, $86.625 for 1,575 sq ft shop.

The thing is, that if you wait for the price of homes to go up, so will the price of lumber, other materials and labor.

If you are building for yourself the fair market value of the outcome may not be that important. Getting it financed, however, my be interesting.

[Ziggy]

[QUOTE=pjc;478379]Interesting thread.

We are planning a new place now but may wait another year of the RE market persists down.

Here is what I am planning.

* Southwest style stucco exterior walls with flat roof where I plan to put our PV panels.
* 35'x45'
* 12'w x 13.5'h door and 9w x 9h door
* Loft over half the area for storage.
* 6" thick floor
* Drywall only in shop work area, @ 1/3rd.
* Thin galvanized steel up to wainscoting at 5' in work area.
* RV AC, Water and Sewer Hookup inside
* Epoxy Floor

I want to do this for $55 a sq ft.[/QUOTE


Check out the price of materials right now.In certain places the prices of wood are at a 10 year low.A lot of lumber companies are dealin' on building packages right now 'cause everyone is slow.

[JOSH]

I run a Component yard in So-Cal, Roof Trusses and Wall Panels. I have done a few shops and sheads using wall panels and it's the way to go. if your going to wood frame your shop let me know, i would love to supply wall panels and roof trusses to the RDC family.