Something New!!

[DUMP!]

Something New!!

As some of you know or have maybe figured out over the last few years that I have posted things here at RDC. I don't subscribe to the BS "Oh, what I'm doing is so much better then what everyone else is doing" or the "I've found the secret to eternal life but I can't share it with you" mentality. There was a 40 page thread of nothing that comes to mind when I think like this. The chances are if you think you have found the secret to eternal life, or think you have come up with the next great thing in racing someone has already tried it or done it. This thread is not about the next revolution in off road racing. No, it's a thread about some of the stuff I've been working on for the last year or so. All stuff that is tried and true and proven to work. So if your looking for something revolutionary sorry to disappoint you. The people I work for want to race and be competitive, they don't want to be crash test dummies or revolutionary. If they did I would have named the thread "Something Revolutionary".

Recently here on RDC, someone I have never met questioned my ability to fabricate. The pictures below are the work of Curt Nicolitz, Ben Heath, Dave Whilly, and myself. So for what it's worth we can cut 4130 out with a hatchet and booger it together with a welder as good as the next guy.

Dump

[Dezertpilot]

OOOHHH, OOOOHHHHH, ME, ME!!! The Terrible Herbst!!!! The new TT's huh:D

[McClintock]

Nice work, always helpful and informative posts. Whats the ETA on the 3 trucks?

[Jerry Zaiden]

Something New!!

As some of you know or have maybe figured out over the last few years that I have posted things here at RDC. I don't subscribe to the BS "Oh, what I'm doing is so much better then what everyone else is doing" or the "I've found the secret to eternal life but I can't share it with you" mentality. There was a 40 page thread of nothing that comes to mind when I think like this. The chances are if you think you have found the secret to eternal life, or think you have come up with the next great thing in racing someone has already tried it or done it. This thread is not about the next revolution in off road racing. No, it's a thread about some of the stuff I've been working on for the last year or so. All stuff that is tried and true and proven to work. So if your looking for something revolutionary sorry to disappoint you. The people I work for want to race and be competitive, they don't want to be crash test dummies or revolutionary. If they did I would have named the thread "Something Revolutionary".

Recently here on RDC, someone I have never met questioned my ability to fabricate. The pictures below are the work of Curt Nicolitz, Ben Heath, Dave Whilly, and myself. So for what it's worth we can cut 4130 out with a hatchet and booger it together with a welder as good as the next guy.

Dump

Derek,

First off the parts look way to heavy. Welded way to hot. And look to be of an old design late 80's early 90's.... lol!!!!

[matt_helton]

that haz looks out of control!!

[Dave_G]

Looks like nice machine work too... ;)

[StGeorge-Motorsports.com]

Very nice work!!! For sure top notch!!!

[Trayne]

-Proud to be apart of this!

[partybarge_pilot]

So can we assume from the bar welded in the a-arm your heat treating them?

[FABRICATOR]

Derek,

First off the parts look way to heavy. Welded way to hot. And look to be of an old design late 80's early 90's.... lol!!!!

Grin. :)

[Random Thoughts Racing]

The shop looks way to clean to be used for actual fabrication of the parts pictured. Please continue spreading your propaganda though.

[Samco Fab]

Definitely needs more triangulation....

Are you using 7018 or 6010 for your stick welder?



That really is awesome work,that looks like the place I want to go when I die, Fabricators Heaven:D

[Jkrell]

The shop looks way to clean to be used for actual fabrication of the parts pictured. Please continue spreading your propaganda though.

you think the shop looks clean, you should see derek's monster double wide snapon toolbox mecca.

arms and links lookin good, glad to see you still know how to use the hatchet and booger maker.

[WoodyW]

looks photoshopped.

[Will_Higman]

Looks awesome...

Give Curt a slap on the back from me!

:D

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Cool! Glad to see this won't be a super-secret-wish-I-could-show-you-pictures-or-talk-about-it-but-I-can't kinda buildup.

[jason@gmachine]

very nice, i love the lower links. best design i have seen.


Jason

[DUMP!]

Whats the ETA on the 3 trucks?

There is no date set in stone,,,,,,,,,yet. It's taken nearly 18 months to get this far I'm thinking Primm or the 1000 next year, but it doesn't really matter what I think. It's what the guy upstairs thinks that counts. ;) ;)

Derek,

First off the parts look way to heavy. Welded way to hot. And look to be of an old design late 80's early 90's.... lol!!!!

Maybe you could stop by and give me some pointers???? And at the same time you could pick up the drawings you asked me for 6 months ago.:D :D

Looks like nice machine work too... ;)

Very nice!!!! The best there is!!!!! Do you know him Dave????:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So can we assume from the bar welded in the a-arm your heat treating them?

That would be a good assumption. All the fabricated moving parts will be heat treated and then re-machined for proper fit.:) :)

arms and links lookin good, glad to see you still know how to use the hatchet and booger maker.

Thanks John, Good to see you here!!!:D :D

looks photoshopped.

No really it is all smoke and mirrors.:cool: :cool:

Looks awesome...

Give Curt a slap on the back from me!

:D

I'll do that, just don't tell RG he's over here!!!!:p :p

Thanks to the rest for your comments:D :D :D

Dump

[Jerry Zaiden]

Finally some nice wall art! Wooo Hooo!!! Did you get that new fancy printer working?

When I come I will be sure to give you some Solid Works pointers.... lol :D

[Pitchit]

Wow! I feel really bad for you guys. I mean, you must be working on a budget if you cant afford a table that doesn't have holes in it. http://www.pitchitwashere.com/Junk/Emoticons/ThumbUp3.gif

[151fab]

Are those plugs you've placed in the bushing and bearing cups made of aluminum? Do they contact the inner surface as much as possible or just enough to locate the part without making it a pita to remove after welding? In other words are you trying to draw away heat and maintain the shape of the cup or just locate it with those plugs? How much machine stock are you leaving in the cup for post-heat treat machining?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm considering heat treating the next set of arms I do and I'm looking for some real-world set-up tips because I've never heat treated a welded assembly before.

[DUMP!]

Are those plugs you've placed in the bushing and bearing cups made of aluminum? Do they contact the inner surface as much as possible or just enough to locate the part without making it a pita to remove after welding? In other words are you trying to draw away heat and maintain the shape of the cup or just locate it with those plugs? How much machine stock are you leaving in the cup for post-heat treat machining?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm considering heat treating the next set of arms I do and I'm looking for some real-world set-up tips because I've never heat treated a welded assembly before.

The bushings are brass. They have .0005-.001 press fit on the ball cup. They have nothing to do with drawing heat out and everything to do with keeping the cup are round as possible. The cups are approx. .030 undersize and are machined to size after heat treatment.

Dump

[151fab]

Thanks Dump. The arms look great.

[chase]

DUDE, learn to fab!!!

Really though, works look top notch. I would really like to see the whole truck.

[tltony]

The bushings are brass. They have .0005-.001 press fit on the ball cup. They have nothing to do with drawing heat out and everything to do with keeping the cup are round as possible. The cups are approx. .030 undersize and are machined to size after heat treatment.

Dump

What? I'd like to see the jig (I mean fixture), that you're using to re-size the uniball cups. Oh, and beautiful work by the way.

Tony

[REEVESRacing]

So for what it's worth we can cut 4130 out with a hatchet and booger it together with a welder as good as the next guy.Dump

Git a photografher who can do justice to your stuff..:D.

[151fab]

What? I'd like to see the jig (I mean fixture), that you're using to re-size the uniball cups. Oh, and beautiful work by the way.

Tony

He's probably using a cnc mill for that...

[partybarge_pilot]

He's probably using a cnc mill for that...


Shhh, top secret. It's a Rotozip with a custom attachment!

[H-rider]

[QUOTE=Jkrell;307605]you think the shop looks clean, you should see derek's monster double wide snapon toolbox mecca.

Does your snap-on box still have unopened sets of different colored screwdrivers or did Foes get to them all!

[Desert Specialties]

What? I'd like to see the jig (I mean fixture), that you're using to re-size the uniball cups. Oh, and beautiful work by the way.

Tony



Probably looks a lot like the 2nd Picture

[thatonefastkid]

h-rider can i use your tools :D

[ACID_RAIN28]

Looks good.

SOOO what else do you have to show? I am sure there is something else laying around that wants to show up on this thread.

[DUMP!]

What? I'd like to see the jig (I mean fixture), that you're using to re-size the uniball cups. Oh, and beautiful work by the way.

Tony


I’ll leave that up to the machinist that will be doing it.

He's probably using a cnc mill for that...

Actually that will be done on a manual machine.

Does your snap-on box still have unopened sets of different colored screwdrivers or did Foes get to them all!

No it doesn’t, everything is open and well used. Droid,,,,,,,is that you?????????

Looks good.

SOOO what else do you have to show? I am sure there is something else laying around that wants to show up on this thread.

There's plenty to show, but a little goes along way around here!!:D :D

Dump

[Jerry Zaiden]

Did you ever do those prints for my wall art? Let me know when they are done so I can come by and drool over these new trucks...

[NicksTrix]

looks great dc.
keep up the fine work & share more pics when you can.

[CaptinCrash]

I’ll leave that up to the machinist that will be doing it.



Actually that will be done on a manual machine.



No it doesn’t, everything is open and well used. Droid,,,,,,,is that you?????????



There's plenty to show, but a little goes along way around here!!:D :D

Dump

whats all this stuff for

[Bajades]

Beautiful stuff Derek. Thanks for the tease!

[Psycho 910]

Whut do you use to buff the tube before welding it?Thanks.

[Trayne]

Scotch Brite pad on a burr king machine!

[DRIVE Jon]

I saw 2 spots of rust about the size of my thumbnail on that breadboard-table! Now I don't feel so bad!

Maybe you Herbst guys are from Earth after all:D

Great looking stuff!!! awesome jig-work!

Jon

[Dezertpilot]

Spectacular! The jig is straight out of my old work, an Aerospace co. that did jigs like that for XM Radio Satellites.

[bcampbell04]

beautiful looking work...can't wait to see these trucks in the future

[zjohnson]

Awesome work . . . I like the sub assembly fixtures

[blacksmith]

very nice, i love the lower links. best design i have seen.


Jason

could these be the highest rated lower links ever. VOTE! yes/no

[DUMP!]

very nice, i love the lower links. best design i have seen.


Jasoncould these be the highest rated lower links ever. VOTE! yes/no

Jason,

Thanks for the compliment.

Blacksmith, It sounds an a lot like you are talking smack.

I know there is nothing special about the design of the links and that they are vertually the same as every other Trophy Truck team runs. So if you are talking smack, take it somewhere else. If your not talking smack then excuss me when I suggest that you be a little more specific about what your point is.

Dump

[Johnson328]

Sir, may I have another?!

I'm in awe!

[therail]

Jason,

Thanks for the compliment.

Blacksmith, It sounds an a lot like you are talking smack.

I think he's just a noob out to find the best looking links, because that defines so much of the truck's performance.

[Firefighter26]

I am so not worthy......that looks Frecken sick

[ACID_RAIN28]

That is more like it, looks great, I might have to find my self in HB one of these days and look around.

[StGeorge-Motorsports.com]

I give alot of props to Derek and his craftsmanship over there!!!

[DUMP!]

I give alot of props to Derek and his craftsmanship over there!!!

Thanks Shawn,

And to everyone for all the positive remarks.

Here are some pictures of what I call the arm rail. It is the part of the chassis that as your sitting in the truck, your arm could be resting on it. It is the lower part of the side window of the cage. It also forms the top of the engine bay and top front shock mounts. You can also see the tooling we will use to build the upper cage in the last few pictures. The upper cage will be completed and then hosted into position on the fixture table.

Enjoy, Dump

[Chase 2]

Nice Tables & Fixtures/Tooling. Sure makes a difference when someone is willing to take the time and money to do things right, no wonder your stuff looks good.

[5racer]

" dump" ??? and not being a smart a-- either is there any advantage to all the jig work for a offroad truck that could care less if its a 1/4 out of square or not .this looks like f-1 stuff why so much time and money {i know money not a prob ** in building these trucks this way like i said just a ??? im sure im not the only one wanting to know .are you building many trucks or just a few .

[ACID_RAIN28]

There are three brothers and three tables so three trucks at least. A 1/4 out of square is lot to be off by and more than that a pain to setup and align the car.

[5racer]

There are three brothers and three tables so three trucks at least. A 1/4 out of square is lot to be off by and more than that a pain to setup and align the car.

yes i know theres three trucks and yes 1/4 out is not going to align but the driver will never know that 1/4 in " is even there inless your on asphalt .my ?? is why such a elaborate jig for these trucks .thats all im asking .

[DUMP!]

" dump" ??? and not being a smart a-- either is there any advantage to all the jig work for a offroad truck that could care less if its a 1/4 out of square or not .this looks like f-1 stuff why so much time and money {i know money not a prob ** in building these trucks this way like i said just a ??? im sure im not the only one wanting to know .are you building many trucks or just a few .


Because we can,,,,,, no that's the wrong answer :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

People talk about raising the bar by "thinking outside the box". We are not doing that. The guys I work for do this as a hobby and only a hobby. We don't produce anything that makes them any money and we do not intend to (unless the criteria drastically changes). They want something that is going to go out and with little development time put the smack down on the rest of the competition,,,,,,,,,,continuously,,,,,,,,,,, at every race.

Having said that, I would like to think we are raising the bar by the quality of what it is we are building. We spent the time and money to make all the tooling because we are building three trucks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, exactly the same as each other. We're doing it so that when a guy walks over to the rack that has 12 lower wishbones on it he can grab one and it is going to fit any truck he decides to put it on. That goes for every part of the truck right down to the body and sheet metal paneling. That means every tube, every Duzs tab, everything will be the same. Contrary to what you may see at the races we do not have a army of people working on these things at the shop. It would be a conservative estimate that 75%-80% of the people that you see wearing a red shirt at the races is nothing more then a volunteer. Not to down play their roll in our effort but they just are not around at the shop. As of now we have one mechanic that by himself preps our Trophy Truck (that is arguably one of the most labor intensive trucks running today) and he also is responsible for rebuilding both the TT and Class 1 transmissions along with a host of other responsibilities that would produce a list as long as your arm. The story is the same for most people that work here. Everyone wears more then just one hat. The point is, the tooling builds a better truck that is more easily serviced in a shorter amount of time. I don't know (because I've never worked on one) but I don't think even with as many trucks as the Geiser Bros have built they can say there is even two of their trucks that are exactly the same right down to the body fitting from one truck to the next without having to re-drill the mounting holes.

As for the money, I'll just say that, believe it or not, everything has it's limits and anyone who thinks that they don't exist here is just fooling themselves!!!!

Dump

[Mark Newhan]

You Guy's Go! The bar has officially been raised through the roof!

[matt_helton]

Because we can,,,,,, no that's the wrong answer :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

People talk about raising the bar by "thinking outside the box". We are not doing that. The guys I work for do this as a hobby and only a hobby. We don't produce anything that makes them any money and we do not intend to (unless the criteria drastically changes). They want something that is going to go out and with little development time put the smack down on the rest of the competition,,,,,,,,,,continuously,,,,,,,,,,, at every race.

Having said that, I would like to think we are raising the bar by the quality of what it is we are building. We spent the time and money to make all the tooling because we are building three trucks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, exactly the same as each other. We're doing it so that when a guy walks over to the rack that has 12 lower wishbones on it he can grab one and it is going to fit any truck he decides to put it on. That goes for every part of the truck right down to the body and sheet metal paneling. That means every tube, every Duzs tab, everything will be the same. Contrary to what you may see at the races we do not have a army of people working on these things at the shop. It would be a conservative estimate that 75%-80% of the people that you see wearing a red shirt at the races is nothing more then a volunteer. Not to down play their roll in our effort but they just are not around at the shop. As of now we have one mechanic that by himself preps our Trophy Truck (that is arguably one of the most labor intensive trucks running today) and he also is responsible for rebuilding both the TT and Class 1 transmissions along with a host of other responsibilities that would produce a list as long as your arm. The story is the same for most people that work here. Everyone wears more then just one hat. The point is, the tooling builds a better truck that is more easily serviced in a shorter amount of time. I don't know (because I've never worked on one) but I don't think even with as many trucks as the Geiser Bros have built they can say there is even two of their trucks that are exactly the same right down to the body fitting from one truck to the next without having to re-drill the mounting holes.

As for the money, I'll just say that, believe it or not, everything has it's limits and anyone who thinks that they don't exist here is just fooling themselves!!!!

Dump

i can think of another shop that builds cars to those same exacting standards.

[fatnbald]

i can think of another shop that builds cars to those same exacting standards.

pretend i'm from mississippi

[matt_helton]

pretend i'm from mississippi


you sure do gotta perdy mouf.

[DUMP!]

i can think of another shop that builds cars to those same exacting standards.

WOW, That's great. I can think of only one and they haven't built race cars for quite a few years now, but how exactly does your comment relate to this thread??? Or is nothing but a shammless plug????

Please don't pollute!!!

Dump

[matt_helton]

wow, you seem awefull high and mighty. dont even sweat it dump dood.

[tltony]

I loss my toof

[zjohnson]

Once again, fixtures are amazing. I like the way you broke down the truck into smaller subassemblies. I take it the final fixture will be much less complicated than these fixtures . . . Do you guys have a fixture to weld the underside of the midrail, or does that get done after you pull it from that particular fixture.
Keep up the awesome work . . .

[DUMP!]

Once again, fixtures are amazing. I like the way you broke down the truck into smaller subassemblies. I take it the final fixture will be much less complicated than these fixtures . . . Do you guys have a fixture to weld the underside of the midrail, or does that get done after you pull it from that particular fixture.
Keep up the awesome work . . .


I'm glad you like the fixturing. That's the kind of thing I learned from Bill Savage. The SPD trucks are built in very similar sub-assemblies. The tooling will range from very fundamental and then get progressively more complex. But when It comes down to the last few steps taken to complete the tube portion of the chassis there will not be any tooling. All that will be left is to connect the front half to the back half as they're located on the chassis table.

There is only the one fixture to weld the arm rail in. The way it was designed is such that all the tubes that make up the flat portion are welded together first. Then you can flip the part and re-insert it into the fixture to weld the bottom half. The assembly actually gets flip several times so that every weld joint is welded 100% before the next tube is placed over the joint. This is something overlooked by a lot of builders. Then after all the flat stuff is welded I installed the raised sections that form the upper front shock mounts. The final welding of the raised portion is welded outside the fixture. Also at each miter joint there is a vertical internal plate bulkhead. This makes for a much stronger joint. This is somewhat important by virtue of the fact that some of those joints are major intersections of the roll cage as well as highly stressed areas of the shock mounts.

I hope that helps explain a little of what's going on in the pictures.

Thank you all for your comments (the intelligent ones)

Mr. High and Mighty, Dump

[matt_helton]

no problem.


im gonna get off the internet and go tune my shocks now.


Mr. Un-intelligent.

[151fab]

As you mentioned in another thread, Dump, you use very few bends and mostly mitered cuts instead. With the technology out there in benders now do you still feel that mitered cuts get you a better tolerance or is is more a packaging problem, strength issue etc? In other words, what is the reasoning behind this build style?

I could see advantages in fitting, labor, and repeatability for myself by using more mitered cuts but I use a very simple bender.

[bajafoolin']

how can some one possibly hate on this thread?? Mr Dump you must be a pretty controversial character. you need to include a warning label with those pictures cus I'm walking around work with a boner and I'd hate to register as a sex offender.

[MSKrebs]

Anytime you bend a tube, you weaken it. A bent tube is essentially pre-crushed, you have plastically deformed the tube and changed it's cross sectional profile. Using a joint you do not compromise the stiffness of the tube, and when your welding like that, additional HAZ zones aren't much of a concern.

Beautiful work.


Matt


As you mentioned in another thread, Dump, you use very few bends and mostly mitered cuts instead. With the technology out there in benders now do you still feel that mitered cuts get you a better tolerance or is is more a packaging problem, strength issue etc? In other words, what is the reasoning behind this build style?

I could see advantages in fitting, labor, and repeatability for myself by using more mitered cuts but I use a very simple bender.

[Mark Newhan]

Anytime you bend a tube, you weaken it. A bent tube is essentially pre-crushed, you have plastically deformed the tube and changed it's cross sectional profile. Using a joint you do not compromise the stiffness of the tube, and when your welding like that, additional HAZ zones aren't much of a concern.

Beautiful work.


Matt

Not to mention the fact that the outside of the bend stretches and as a result of the stretch the wall thickness decreases.

[DUMP!]

As you mentioned in another thread, Dump, you use very few bends and mostly mitered cuts instead. With the technology out there in benders now do you still feel that mitered cuts get you a better tolerance or is is more a packaging problem, strength issue etc? In other words, what is the reasoning behind this build style?

I could see advantages in fitting, labor, and repeatability for myself by using more mitered cuts but I use a very simple bender.

I believe a bent tube is not as strong because when you bend a tube essentially you stretch it. So now what may have started out as .120 wall could be as thin as .090 on the outside out the bend. (Edit) Sorry Mark I missed your post (End edit)

Once you bend it is no longer round but more egg shaped.

Fitting sheet metal to a bend is much more time consuming then fitting it to a miter joint.

Miters are also much stronger if you use the bulkhead insert that I talked about above.

Miters also add more clearance room and package better depending on how they are used.

Bends allow for more flex in a chassis then a miter because of the longer gradual transition from one angle to the next where a miter has instant direction change and thus directs the forces more to the center of the intersection.

I think it's the last reason above all others as to why I prefer miters over bent intersections

how can some one possibly hate on this thread?? Mr. Dump you must be a pretty controversial character. you need to include a warning label with those pictures cus I'm walking around work with a boner and I'd hate to register as a sex offender.

I don't know about controversial. I do have my opinion and I'm not afraid to share it. The problem is that I don't believe in "Political Correctness". I think it's a bunch of ish. There for when I express my opinion I don't sugar coat it and that pisses people off. The people who actually spend the time to get to know me have no problem with me. Chances are if you don't like me you have not spent the time to get to know me.

Sorry about the boner, consider your self warned:D :D :D

Anytime you bend a tube, you weaken it. A bent tube is essentially pre-crushed, you have plastically deformed the tube and changed it's cross sectional profile. Using a joint you do not compromise the stiffness of the tube, and when your welding like that, additional HAZ zones aren't much of a concern.

Beautiful work.


Matt

I couldn't agree more!!!!

Thanks for your comments, this is the type of constructive babble I was looking for.

Dump

[CRAIGHALL]

Let's not forget the fact that when something is designed 100% on a computer and everything is perfect, you may want to eliminate the "human " error factor. Lasered straight tubes fit perfect everytime, not so when you draw a bent tube with notches. You still need a person to bend exactly on the mark and fluff in the notch. Dump's point about sheetmetal fitting over bent vs. mitered tube is what I like--More triangles the better.

[BrenthelIndustries]

awesome work to say the least.

[NicksTrix]

awesome. so fun to watch the progress. thanks dump

[therail]

Dump!, could you please elaborate more on this bulkhead idea? I think I have a grasp on what you are saying, but am still a little fuzzy.

[151fab]

Thanks for all the replies. Those were all points I've considered but its good to hear a crowd such as yourselves respond in unison.

[DUMP!]

Dump!, could you please elaborate more on this bulkhead idea? I think I have a grasp on what you are saying, but am still a little fuzzy.


Easier to just show you:D

Dump

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Oh, that's cool. I thought you were putting plate inside the tubes at junctions like internal gussets (going from the inside of one tube to the inside of another).

[DRIVE Jon]

It's all clear now! Thanks....could't figure it out before the pics. Guess you just have to be smarter than the tubing!

[redbaronrace]

Because we can,,,,,, no that's the wrong answer :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

People talk about raising the bar by "thinking outside the box". We are not doing that. The guys I work for do this as a hobby and only a hobby. We don't produce anything that makes them any money and we do not intend to (unless the criteria drastically changes). They want something that is going to go out and with little development time put the smack down on the rest of the competition,,,,,,,,,,continuously,,,,,,,,,,, at every race.

Having said that, I would like to think we are raising the bar by the quality of what it is we are building. We spent the time and money to make all the tooling because we are building three trucks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, exactly the same as each other. We're doing it so that when a guy walks over to the rack that has 12 lower wishbones on it he can grab one and it is going to fit any truck he decides to put it on. That goes for every part of the truck right down to the body and sheet metal paneling. That means every tube, every Duzs tab, everything will be the same. Contrary to what you may see at the races we do not have a army of people working on these things at the shop. It would be a conservative estimate that 75%-80% of the people that you see wearing a red shirt at the races is nothing more then a volunteer. Not to down play their roll in our effort but they just are not around at the shop. As of now we have one mechanic that by himself preps our Trophy Truck (that is arguably one of the most labor intensive trucks running today) and he also is responsible for rebuilding both the TT and Class 1 transmissions along with a host of other responsibilities that would produce a list as long as your arm. The story is the same for most people that work here. Everyone wears more then just one hat. The point is, the tooling builds a better truck that is more easily serviced in a shorter amount of time. I don't know (because I've never worked on one) but I don't think even with as many trucks as the Geiser Bros have built they can say there is even two of their trucks that are exactly the same right down to the body fitting from one truck to the next without having to re-drill the mounting holes.

As for the money, I'll just say that, believe it or not, everything has it's limits and anyone who thinks that they don't exist here is just fooling themselves!!!!

Dump
all of the SPD trucks are the same , down to the body mounts ,etc and they used the same type tables and jigs . very nice work on both parties.

[MSKrebs]

Dump-

In my experience, tig welding mitered joint (although without the internal bulkheads) in similar style jigging (bolt down aluminum fixtures) leads to a fair amount of post-weld pulling. I'm not sure whether it has to do with your specific weld sequences and fixtures, but it does not seem to haunt you ask much as it has me. I would think that it would take alot of gentle nudging all around the perimeter of the piece to free it from the jig once it was all done, but I'm not seeing any rub marks from the jig pins on the final pieces. Do you design your fixtures to accomodate for the material pulling from the weld heat?

Matt

[DUMP!]

Dump-

In my experience, tig welding mitered joint (although without the internal bulkheads) in similar style jigging (bolt down aluminum fixtures) leads to a fair amount of post-weld pulling. I'm not sure whether it has to do with your specific weld sequences and fixtures, but it does not seem to haunt you ask much as it has me. I would think that it would take alot of gentle nudging all around the perimeter of the piece to free it from the jig once it was all done, but I'm not seeing any rub marks from the jig pins on the final pieces. Do you design your fixtures to accommodate for the material pulling from the weld heat?

Matt

I didn't really consider weld shrinkage when I designed the tooling. I did make the tube fit loose in the pins. What I mean is that when the tube is laying free in the tooling it is loose by about .020 or .025 side to side. When I fit a mitered joint I have been trying to make sure that the tube is pulled to the long side of the miter so that when the weld shrinks the tube might now be just touching the inside pin and not loading it too much if that makes sense. It seams to be working out ok. I haven't had to get out the "BIG" pry bar or the 20lbs hammer yet.

One thing you have to remember is that as long as you have a welded assembly there is going to be weld shrinkage, there is just know way around that. As Craig said this truck was 100% designed in the computer. All the tubing was laser notched. Even though the tubes are in theory 100% accurate you still have to adjust their fit for weld shrinkage. I'd say to this point I've had to adjust 10% of the tubes I've used for fit because of weld shrinkage.

Thanks, Dump

[therail]

Thanks for the pics dude. That is what I had imagined, but seeing a few more pics of the aero grade tooling didn't hurt my feelings any. :-)

[DUMP!]

Here are some shots of the things we’ve completed over the last few weeks.

The first is a series of shots of the rear roll hoop of the main cage.

[DUMP!]

The second is of the first of the three top cage sub assemblies.

[DUMP!]

More of the top cage

[DUMP!]

And last is the first of two swing sets that make up the steering

Enjoy, Dump

[Jerry Zaiden]

Looks like crap....

[Chase 2]

What no cup walking??? Just kidding.

First class all the way, looks fantastic.

[NicksTrix]

super work there dc.
question regarding your bulkhead joints. do you match plate thickness with wall thickness of the tube?

[DUMP!]

Looks like crap....

Thanks Jerry, Sorry I just cant seam to get the hang of this tig welding stuff. Maybe you could drop by and show me some of your wire welding technics. I know our stuff is not as nice as your Tundra but maybe you could throw me a bone once in a while:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What no cup walking??? Just kidding.

First class all the way, looks fantastic.

Sorry to disapoint you Craig. We desided to weld it right the first time instead of doing it twice:D :D :D

super work there dc.
question regarding your bulkhead joints. do you match plate thickness with wall thickness of the tube?

Nick, Hows Donny?? tell him I said Hi!!!! No, not neccesarily. Most every joint has a .065 plate bulkhead except for the intersections of the "A" and "B" pillers they have .125 plate bulkheads. I thought I would go a bit thicker at the cage intersections for a greater resistance to crush.:) :) :) :)

Dump

[StGeorge-Motorsports.com]

I look forward to checking the updates on this thread because the work is so first class! Keep it up over there DUMP! and crew!

[Justin]

Does Geiser Bros build their trucks in the same manner?

[Jerry Zaiden]

Ok Ok Ok it is bad A$s :D

[NicksTrix]

DC, donny is doing great with the "new to him" body part. he was really needing that.
i'll pass your greeting along next time i see him.

thanks for the info. keep up the good work. looks outstanding.

[DUMP!]

I look forward to checking the updates on this thread because the work is so first class! Keep it up over there DUMP! and crew!

Thanks Shawn, the crew, all two of them appriciates it:D :D

Does Geiser Bros build their trucks in the same manner?

I'm not sure how the Geiser Bros build their trucks. I've never been to there shop and don't know anyone who works there. Maybe someone else can comment. The way we are going about it is very simular to how Bill Savage builds his trucks. We have invested a lot more in tooling and have tooled more of the chassis then Bill normally does. Bill's tooling is somewhat more temperary not to say that it is not as good it's just that he uses angle blocks and risers that can be used for many different projects. Also thier flat plane tooling is fabricated instead of machined so there is a bit of error there because of weld shrinkage and distorsion, again not to say that what we are using is any better, just different. It is obviuose Bill builds a great truck (think BJ Baldwin):D :D

Ok Ok Ok it is bad A :D

Thanks Jerry, right back at you!!!!!!!!!!:D :D

DC, donny is doing great with the "new to him" body part. he was really needing that.
i'll pass your greeting along next time i see him.

thanks for the info. keep up the good work. looks outstanding.

Thats great to hear, thanks Nick.;) ;)

Dump

[sactoyota]

This is the best work I've ever seen...I'm smarter now for having read this. Keep the pics coming!

[SEANY]

Really nice shackle, the but why so much work for a leaf spring truck.:D :D

Wow that is really nice work, do you have robots doing that or what??

[Bajades]

Derek,

I wish you would stop posting fabrication porn on this website. It's making everybody else's stuff look look amateurish.

Keep up the great work and thanks for feeding our fetish!

[JESSE_at_TLT]

I've got a question: Are the new trucks going to be 4WD?

OK, two questions: What about those high-clearance lower control arms? I always thought those things were pretty badass. Worth the trouble though? Are you guys going to build something similar for the new trucks?

[DUMP!]

I've got a question: Are the new trucks going to be 4WD??

No, 2WD, Very simular to the shark in the geometry, Proven to win!!!

OK, two questions: What about those high-clearance lower control arms? I always thought those things were pretty badass. Worth the trouble though? Are you guys going to build something similar for the new trucks?

I'm assumming your talking about the lower front wishbones on our current 4WD???

If so, no they are not "high-clearance" as you call them. The reason they are shaped that way on the old truck is because the lower ball joint is in the dirt, do to the nature of the 4WD application. This shape gives them some additional ground clearance at full bump. Sense the new trucks are 2WD there is no need to go to the trouble. You can see pictures of the new lower wishbones on the first page of this thread.

Dump

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Thanks, that's what I was talking about (the shape of the lower wishbones with additional ground clearance). If you're going 2WD I can see why that wouldn't be necessary.

[Will_Higman]

No, 2WD, Very simular to the shark in the geometry, Proven to win!!!

That's what I have been wondering this whole time... Why mess with a proven winning package!

The Shark farts Crocs... overall that is.:D

:)

[BajaFand]

DUMP, do you guys use a type of CNC tubing bender to eliminate accidental human error while bending the tubing? Such getting slight twists in tubes with multiple bends? If not what do you use to bend with and how do you ensure accuracy?

[DUMP!]

DUMP, do you guys use a type of CNC tubing bender to eliminate accidental human error while bending the tubing? Such getting slight twists in tubes with multiple bends? If not what do you use to bend with and how do you ensure accuracy?

We don't have a bender that will bend 2.0" o.d. tube:( :( So the answer to your question is send it out. We out sourced all the tube bending threw a third party. So far it has been spot on with regard to the angle and flatness of tubes with multiple bends. I'm finding how ever that the clocking between bends on the "A" pillars is inconsistant. So far there have not been any unusable tubes, everything has been able to be clamped into position but there is a bit of inaccuracy.

Here is a bit more eye candy, or offroad porn as some put it. These are of the top cage in position on the chassis table. There are a few pieces of tooling that still need to be installed to locate for and aft and side to side but you get the picture.

Enjoy,

Dump

[JESSE_at_TLT]

We don't have a bender that will bend 2.0" o.d. tube
You're kidding, right? What type of benders do you guys use anyway?

[jonpfive]

I think I saw a piece of dirt on the floor in the second picture. How disappointing...:D

JMR sells a bender that will do up to 2in .250. Billet degree wheel and pointers on it. We have one and it works very well.

Truck looks VERY nice. However I am even more enamored with with jig-work. That stuff is awesome.

[JESSE_at_TLT]

That's why I thought it was so funnay. Any one of their fixtures probably costs more than a 2" die.

[DUMP!]

That's why I thought it was so funnay. Any one of their fixtures probably costs more than a 2" die.


Your right, for the money we have spent on tooling we could have bought a very nice bender and or die. We have a (IMO) P.O.S. Mitler Bros (glorified conduit bender) tube bender and a Pro-Tools tube bender and I'm in the process of building my own that will use the Pro-Tools dies. Here's the thing, for what we spent on tooling, in no way could we have bought a CNC Mandrel tube bender. I have never seen bent tube that looks as nice as what we ended up with. At the middle of the bend there is only about .030 of the tube being out of round. That just isn't possible with the average "Offroad" tube bender. We did look into buying a good bender. By good, I mean something other then the average Pro-Tools, JD2, Hossfeld, etc, etc. But with all the money spent over the last year building and moving into our new facility and with all the new equipment we have bought it just made more sense to out source. It's like I said in a earlier post. Anyone who thinks there are no financial limitations here is just kidding themselves, they exist everywhere.:D :D :D

Dump

[JESSE_at_TLT]

So THAT'S why there are so few bends! I didn't know you were using mandrel-bent tubing, although I should have guessed...

[amrein1743]

I researched purchasing a CNC mandrel bender a few years back. I looked at the Pines brand bender and I think it was around 200k, but that was almost 5 years ago.

Also, if I remember correctly, Pines told me that to bend .120 wall tubing we did not need to use a mandrel. It is when you bend .095 wall (or smaller) or try to bend too tight of a radius that the mandrel really becomes critical.

The most valuable aspect for me of the CNC bender was the repeatability of single and multiple bends. They were much more accurate than what we were using at the time, not only in the degree of the bend, but the proximity of each bend from each other and the clocking of the tube.

Chris

[Jkrell]

Here is a bit more eye candy, or offroad porn as some put it.

I've got wood....

Looks good Derek....amazing, actually.

[CannondaleRider]

Wow......Just wow. I can't even describe how amazing that is.

I know I'm only 18, but...NEVER in my life, have I seen such amazing Jig work, and Fab work......I'm in awe.

Good job!

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

Dump are your using Tsco?

[Dezertpilot]

Dump are your using Tsco?

That would be a far drive, Im thinking somewhere more local?

[Andy McMillin]

I bet they are using Caltime. Greg is real good friends with the Herbst Guys.

[PJTPW]

Simply amazing work.

What wall thicknesses do TT's run on interior tubes - .083, .065 ? I know this is kind of a broad question, and a lot has to do with tubes being in tension or compression, etc, but what's the "average" truck running for interior wall thicknesses?

How many feet of tube do you plan on having into these trucks if you don't mind my asking?

Ryan

[DUMP!]

So THAT'S why there are so few bends! I didn't know you were using mandrel-bent tubing, although I should have guessed...

No Jesse, I don't believe in those kind of design compromises. I gave no thought to weather or not I would be able to bend the tubes myself or not. I designed the chassis using miter joints because that is what I prefer. See my earlier comments on Bent vs. Miters in this thread and that will explain why I did what I did.:D :D

I researched purchasing a CNC mandrel bender a few years back. I looked at the Pines brand bender and I think it was around 200k, but that was almost 5 years ago.

Also, if I remember correctly, Pines told me that to bend .120 wall tubing we did not need to use a mandrel. It is when you bend .095 wall (or smaller) or try to bend too tight of a radius that the mandrel really becomes critical.

The most valuable aspect for me of the CNC bender was the repeatability of single and multiple bends. They were much more accurate than what we were using at the time, not only in the degree of the bend, but the proximity of each bend from each other and the clocking of the tube.

Chris

Hey Chris, That's some good info but,,,,, I have used a Pines bender. That is the type of bender that Bill Savage uses. He does not have a proper mandrel set up for his bender. So, I am well acquainted with how well the Pines benders bend tube without the mandrel and I can tell you without a doubt that using a mandrel is a BIG plus. Yes it has a greater effect on the lighter wall thickness tubes but it still makes a huge difference in the final product of the thicker walled tubes as well.:D :D

I've got wood....

Looks good Derek....amazing, actually.

Thanks Jon, hope you had someone close by too help with the wood:o :o :o

Dump are your using Tsco?

Fly, I'm not really sure exactly who it was that bent our tubes for us. As I said, it was all done threw a third party and I really didn't ask or care. As long as I got what I needed it didn't matter if they were bent around a tree stump.:D :D

I bet they are using Caltime. Greg is real good friends with the Herbst Guys.

Hey Andy, nice to see ya in the shop. Yes we use Caltime for all our materials and we do outsource threw Gregg for a lot of different things but not this stuff. Does Gregg still ware his Herbst shirt under his driving suit when riding with RG like he used to??;) ;) ;)

Simply amazing work.

What wall thicknesses do TT's run on interior tubes - .083, .065 ? I know this is kind of a broad question, and a lot has to do with tubes being in tension or compression, etc, but what's the "average" truck running for interior wall thicknesses?

How many feet of tube do you plan on having into these trucks if you don't mind my asking?

Ryan

If you could be more specific I could give you a better answer. By interior tube do you mean the diagonals?? The chassis is a blend of .120, .095, .083, .065 & .049. You will find the .120 used predominantly in the cage structure as well as .095. I used .095 in some of the higher stress areas like shock mnt and bump stop areas of the chassis. Then these areas are triangulated with the .083 and the .065 as well as the .049 in some of the lower stress areas.

As for how many feet of tube,,,, a lot. I figured it out a long time ago but don't know where the notes went. It's safe to say that the trucks I've designed have a few more feet of tube in them then the average. I learned chassis design from a old school engineer,,,"Triangles not Squares" is what I remember ringing in my ears.

Just wondering, Hey Andy Mc. how many cracks in the chassis of your truck,,,, any???
Someone told me that RG's truck has only ever had one crack in it and that was in the plate work not in the tube parts of the chassis. Like I said, just wondering because those trucks are going on 4 years old now.

Thanks to all for the great commnets and questions,

Dump

[JESSE_at_TLT]

No Jesse, I don't believe in those kind of design compromises. I gave no thought to weather or not I would be able to bend the tubes myself or not. I designed the chassis using miter joints because that is what I prefer. See my earlier comments on Bent vs. Miters in this thread and that will explain why I did what I did.:D :D
Dood, ah wuz keeding.

[BajaFand]

DUMP, what part (if any) did Mike Smith have in the design of these trucks and does he still do fabwork there? Or is he just the head team/shop manager now? Did you and him work together on designing these trucks or were they designed by you only?

Will the new trucks use Smith's shocks?

Thanks, everything looks great!

[Bulldozer]

You guys try too hard.













:p Just kidding. It all looks amazing dump. I enjoy reading this thread.

[NicksTrix]

dc, do you anneal the chassis when done or run it as is?
curious what your take on that is. i know it's been debated back and forth on here. i've gone both ways and can't say i've seen anything there.

[DUMP!]

DUMP, what part (if any) did Mike Smith have in the design of these trucks and does he still do fabwork there? Or is he just the head team/shop manager now? Did you and him work together on designing these trucks or were they designed by you only?

Will the new trucks use Smith's shocks?

Thanks, everything looks great!

Ok here we go, Remember I told you I don't believe in PC so take this at face value.

As far as actually working on the computer model Mike did some of the original basic layout on the rear suspension and he designed the first generation of the rear trailing arms. I did the rest, that is not to say Mike was not involved. Mike was heavily involved with suspension layout and design criteria but left a lot of the detail work for me to figure out.

No, Mike does not have time to do any fab work any more, as much as he would like to, there just is not enough time in the day. There is no way I would want to be in Mikes shoes. In addition to being the buffer between the boys and the rest of us at the shop. He is over seeing the SCORE, CORR and TK programs as well as keeping a handle on the new SCORE trucks being built and at the same time Mike is also doing preliminary research for the design of a new Pro 4 to be built after the new TT's are finished. If that is not enough he has to manage the day to day operations of 20 + employees. Not only did we more then double the size of the shop within the last year but the employee count went up as well by roughly the same percentage. Mike has more then enough on his plate and he'll tell you he is glade he has a few good people that help out as heads in their respective departments.

Yes we will be building our own shocks, there is just no other way we would do it.

Thanks, Dump

[DUMP!]

dc, do you anneal the chassis when done or run it as is?
curious what your take on that is. i know it's been debated back and forth on here. i've gone both ways and can't say i've seen anything there.


Hey Nick, I'm not sure if they will be stress releaved out of the box but I'm sure at some point they will be. The cars we have now have been done more then once. Mike is a strong believer in it.

Dump

[PJTPW]

What is the process for stress relieveing a chassis?

Ryan

[NicksTrix]

dc, have you ever done or heard of doing one in a controlled burn oven?
the place i use to strip & dip these old broncos first put them in an oven and burn off all the paint, grease, fillers, sealers... before they soak them. they get baked at just over 800* for a couple hours. it doesn't distort the sheet metal.
wondering if something like this would work. it's a very cool process. all computer controlled & epa approved.

[151fab]

"first put them in an oven and burn off all the paint, grease, fillers, sealers", Nickstrix.

There's no way thats going on in Cali. But there is a place in L.A. that has a pit big enough to fit a TT chassis in. I think it's called Los Angeles Heat Treat, but its been a while since I've heat treated anything that big so I might be off on the name.

[partybarge_pilot]

Certified has an oven that big.......

[michael_loomis]

Derek, since everything is jigged up so well (more like perfect) so that duplicates can be made, would you be so kind as to make an extra set of everything for me to come pick up. Thanks, I'll bring ya a case of your favorite beer every week! ;)

haha

truly remarkable production quality !!!

[therail]

Certified has an oven that big.......
I figure after their spot in Dirtsports they will doing a few more chassis now.

[hangten33]

:D :D Good Stuff Brutha!!:D :D

[DUMP!]

What is the process for stress relieveing a chassis?

Ryan

BIG OVEN,,,,,, lots of heat. Same as you would any other steel part.

dc, have you ever done or heard of doing one in a controlled burn oven?
the place i use to strip & dip these old broncos first put them in an oven and burn off all the paint, grease, fillers, sealers... before they soak them. they get baked at just over 800* for a couple hours. it doesn't distort the sheet metal.
wondering if something like this would work. it's a very cool process. all computer controlled & epa approved.

Hey Nick, Yes I've heard of this type of stipping but I don't think that the temps would be high enough to be of any help

There's no way thats going on in Cali.

No kidding, Their actually is (was a few years ago any way) a small outfit in the San Fernando Valley that did this type of stripping. It was owned by a ex-cop and I think a lot of people just kind of looked the other way because of it.

Certified has an oven that big.......

Yes they do:D :D :D

Derek, since everything is jigged up so well (more like perfect) so that duplicates can be made, would you be so kind as to make an extra set of everything for me to come pick up. Thanks, I'll bring ya a case of your favorite beer every week! ;)

haha

truly remarkable production quality !!!

That's a nice offer Michael,,,cept I don't drink. I'll take a large garbage bag full of benjamins though,,,,,,,every week!!!!:D :D

No seriusly we already have six sets of all the suspension finished. It would be nothin' to wip out an extra chassis say for about an extra,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:D :D Dump:D :D

[NicksTrix]

DC, what temp do you bake them at?

[FBR413]

Any new updates or photos??? Man I love Terrible Herbst Team.

[DUMP!]

DC, what temp do you bake them at?

Not to sure Nick. I suspect it is very similar to stress relieving a part that is going to be heat treated only they do not quench, just a slow cool down cycle.

Any new updates or photos???

Heres a few more.

The first two are of the racks of parts waiting to go to heat treat.

[DUMP!]

The next few are of the right side steering swing. It also incorperates the ram mount and drag link mount into it.

[DUMP!]

This is the front lower pivot box. Where the lower wishbones mount.

[DUMP!]

Last installment is the start of the rear axle housing. This is the center section.

I hope you enjoy,

Dump

[DRIVE Jon]

Im speechless....and I cried a little bit while looking at the birth of the center section.

Its so beautiful!

Thanks for taking all the time to post this build. When we see these trucks, we are gonna have a bond with them!

[GMRacing]

i dont know what to say.

this is beyond perfection.

Jason

[brettgarland]

that is amazing! I would love to have the tools and smarts to do that kind of stuff!!! On the rear center section, do you heat treat after completed? How much distortion comes from heat treatment?

Is there a manufacturer for the drilled and tapped table you have? I always wondered if they were custom or made/purchased?

[maxyedor]

Powder-coated racks to hold parts before going to heat-treat!!! That's borderline Formula One level in terms of shop organization and cleanliness, but I think you've probably got F1 teams beat on repetability on fit/finish.

[homey]

Is there a manufacturer for the drilled and tapped table you have? I always wondered if they were custom or made/purchased?

www.newport.com

http://www.newport.com/Optical-Tables-and-Vibration-Control/137658/1033/catalog.aspx

I used to get these for free...I'm sure the tables in the pictures were from another mfg. and were a lot cheaper...but they do not float on air!!

[Next-Gen]

Nice work!!

[ACID_RAIN28]

Just keeps on getting better and better, looks good. Will you be doing a final machine operation on the idlers after heat treat?

[CRAIGHALL]

Derek, great that your willing to show off so much of the work you've done, looks awesome. I'd be a little afraid to show it all off, just makes you come up with something better next time !--Wish I had a customer that willing for design work.--

[Dave_G]

,,,cept I don't drink.

I'll bet you will by the time this project is over... :D

LOL!

[Jkrell]

I'll bet you will by the time this project is over... :D

LOL!

I've seen big D drink on a few occasions....some good times.

works looking great derek.

[zjohnson]

Awesome quality work derek. Thanks for posting the progress of this truck, nice to see the high quality of work being done

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Thanks for sharing all the step-by-step sequences. It's really helpful to see all of the fixtures and jigs and stuff.

[amrein1743]

ISO 9000 series Trophy Truck?

I know it's been said but it is amazingly clean work, and it's really generous that you are willing to share photos and details with us.

Thanks, Chris

[bajafoolin']

dump, thanks for the sneak peek of heaven. i would join the seminary today to become a priest if it meant I would be reincarnated as a jig in that shop. i hope you know you are living alot of people's dreams.

[Cliffy]

Heres a few more.

The first two are of the racks of parts waiting to go to heat treat.


Dump, the rear arms on the rack, appear to have been welded using different methods, one has a stop start, and the other has been welded on a continous method, is that right? was just observing the heat soak.. also when you a welding parts in jigs, arms, idlers ect do you pre heat, weld continously or weld and let cool then weld again.

Fantastic thread, inspirational.......:D

[DRIVE Jon]

ISO 9000 series Trophy Truck?


Let this be the last time ISO is ever mentioned on RDC! It is the work of the devil:D

It was one said that ISO is the perfect way to document the failue of a company because they were trying to conform.:eek:

JK!

[partybarge_pilot]

Let this be the last time ISO is ever mentioned on RDC! It is the work of the devil:D

It was once said that ISO is the perfect way to document the failue of a company because they were trying to conform.:eek:

JK!

No foolin, you need a new department just to handle the paper work.

[michael_loomis]

That's a nice offer Michael,,,cept I don't drink. I'll take a large garbage bag full of benjamins though,,,,,,,every week!!!!:D :D

No seriusly we already have six sets of all the suspension finished. It would be nothin' to wip out an extra chassis say for about an extra,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:D :D Dump:D :D


sweet.. I'll stock up on ink cartridges for my office printer. If this is the kinda fabwork that can be accomplished by not drinking, I'm going to stop! tomorrow! or maybe sunday.. wait.. chargers vs. raiders.. ok monday!

Dump please can I have some of your koolaid!! LOL

[NicksTrix]

DC, do you keep a log or set a welding schedule of how you go about glueing together these assemblies? with trying to keep everything the same and control it with fixtures i was wondering about that.

[therail]

I would like to see the log if he has it. Imagine how many miles of filler go into that truck and its spare components.

[DUMP!]

Thanks everyone for all your great comments it is nice to see that there are people who can see the effort we are putting in and will let us know about it.:D :D :D

that is amazing! I would love to have the tools and smarts to do that kind of stuff!!! On the rear center section, do you heat treat after completed? How much distortion comes from heat treatment?

Is there a manufacturer for the drilled and tapped table you have? I always wondered if they were custom or made/purchased?

Yes it will get heat treated then final machined and then the axle tubes will be installed with all the remaining trussing. I'm actually hoping that by stress reliving and heat treating that it will relax the distortion caused by welding. I did encounter some distortion due to a mistake made in the design of the tooling and that will be corrected before we build the next one. I believe that the distortion that we did encounter will most likely be taken care of in the final machine process. The tables were made by Caltime Metals 714 892-3307. They are 5 X 15 and drilled on three inch centers

Powder-coated racks to hold parts before going to heat-treat!!! That's borderline Formula One level in terms of shop organization and cleanliness, but I think you've probably got F1 teams beat on repetability on fit/finish.

I'm sure there is plenty to be learned from the F1 boys:) :) :)

Just keeps on getting better and better, looks good. Will you be doing a final machine operation on the idlers after heat treat?

Yes, all the fabricated moving parts will need to be final machined after heat treatment.

Derek, great that your willing to show off so much of the work you've done, looks awesome. I'd be a little afraid to show it all off, just makes you come up with something better next time !--Wish I had a customer that willing for design work.--

Thanks Craig, but who said I have showed you all of it????:D :D There are a few things, not many, that you will just have to wait to see at the first race. But all you will have to remember is that, like I said earlier in this thread, we are not braking any new ground with this just doing some refinements to a race proven winner.:eek: :eek: :eek:

I'll bet you will by the time this project is over... :D

LOL!

Ya, me and Wally both!!!!:eek: :eek:

dump, thanks for the sneak peek of heaven. i would join the seminary today to become a priest if it meant I would be reincarnated as a jig in that shop. i hope you know you are living alot of people's dreams.

Why a jig???? If I was going to come back as something, I'd want it to be something fun like the chassis. Something that is going to go out and race and have fun not something that when it usefulness is done with gets put on a shelf to collect dust until needed again.:D :D :D

Dump, the rear arms on the rack, appear to have been welded using different methods, one has a stop start, and the other has been welded on a continous method, is that right? was just observing the heat soak.. also when you a welding parts in jigs, arms, idlers ect do you pre heat, weld continously or weld and let cool then weld again.

Fantastic thread, inspirational.......:D

They were welded using different methods, but not by plan. The first three arms were welded by two different people and there was no consistency in those parts. We were able to correct what was wrong with them so there are no scrap parts. I welded one arm together when we discovered that we had a problem and I took photos of every step I took along the way so that the guy that would end up welding the remaining arms had a reference to follow. I was the one who started the stop start weld sequence you see on most of the arms and remaining parts. This is called "back stepping". If you weld like I do from right to left. You would start by tacking the part every 2.5 - 3.0 inches. Then your first weld would be at the far left end. You would weld the first 2.5 - 3.0 inch segment and them move three or four segments to the right and do your second weld segment. You repeat this up and down the length of the part alternating from side to side and top to bottom all at the same time always doing a short stitch and skipping to the right. Once you have welded, skipped and welded your way down the arm you go back to the far left and start over again. You continue to do this until the arm is completely welded. This heats the part more evenly all over instead of from one end to the other. The theory is that it will cause less weld induced distortion then if you start from one end and continue to the other end. I do not pre-heat although it would probably not be a bad idea. I tend to weld on the hot side anyway so I don't have much trouble with the penetration of my welds. Once I start to weld a part I try as hard as reasonably possible to finish that part in one seating although sometimes this is not possible as in the rear axle housing. There is about 25 hours of welding in that part including about 4 hours of welding in a mirror, Oh what fun that is!! I hope you find the answer you were looking for in all that.:eek: :eek: :eek:

DC, do you keep a log or set a welding schedule of how you go about glueing together these assemblies? with trying to keep everything the same and control it with fixtures i was wondering about that.

Hey Nick, Yes,,, well, no. There is no log per say. I have tried to build one each of the parts so far so that I can take pictures of the build sequence showing what is tacked and when, and what is welded and when. Then those picture are printed out and used to build the rest of the parts by the person who is building them. Some parts, like the steering swings, I did not build the first article but kept a close eye on the progress when the first article was being built. Before we started building anything I tried very hard to develop a set of books for each part that outlined things like technical drawings for all the machine parts to be used, Exploded views of the part that identified each part of the assembly by part number. Each book also included a full size drawing for each part contained in the assembly for size reference and bend reference. Those full sized drawings also include the part number for each part so that you can cross reference it to the exploded drawing. In addition to all that in the back of each book there is a series of jpgs that document the build sequence that was created using the computer model complete with step numbers and special reminder notes about vent holes and things to look out for when building the part. As hard as I tried there are always things you think of during the build of the part that you end up doing differently but at least it is a starting point. My goal with the books was to make it so that if someone needed to build a replacement part a few years down the road and I was no longer around it could be done with out too much trouble. The jpgs below are a sample of some of the ones used for the build sequence documentation.

Again, Thanks to everyone for the great comments

Dump

[DUMP!]

Here are more pictures of the rear axle housing. This is now complete and ready to go to the heat treater. Then it will be final machined and have the axle tubes installed as well as the remaining trussing.

Dump

[CaptinCrash]

I like the serieal number

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Beautiful. How much is that housing going to weigh?

[NicksTrix]

very cool DC.
impressive machine work on your fixturing.
do you find any benefit to using the weave pattern vs a conventional? are you using it more in the applications for surface contact percentage?
curious to what size rod you are using. looks to be maybe 45, 63 & 3/32 on the heavy parts.

i know of one chassis builder out here who builds in a simliar fassion and uses a weld schedule to glue the main structure of the chassis together. he says it really controls how it moves and can control some things with it as well to his benefit.

truely impressive work derek. great that the owners are willing to make the investment in doing it this way. they have obviously tremendous confidence in you & your skills along with your support staff. i'd love to check it out someday when i make it back out that way.

[Cliffy]

There is about 25 hours of welding in that part including about 4 hours of welding in a mirror, Oh what fun that is!! I hope you find the answer you were looking for in all that.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Thanks for the answer/pointers.... Would like to see the 4 hours of welding in a mirror.

Again fantastic work:D :D :D

[DUMP!]

very cool DC.
impressive machine work on your fixturing.
do you find any benefit to using the weave pattern vs a conventional? are you using it more in the applications for surface contact percentage?
curious to what size rod you are using. looks to be maybe 45, 63 & 3/32 on the heavy parts.

i know of one chassis builder out here who builds in a simliar fassion and uses a weld schedule to glue the main structure of the chassis together. he says it really controls how it moves and can control some things with it as well to his benefit.

truely impressive work derek. great that the owners are willing to make the investment in doing it this way. they have obviously tremendous confidence in you & your skills along with your support staff. i'd love to check it out someday when i make it back out that way.

The rear axle housing is the only thing so far that has been welded using the "weave" style weld. I used it only to get just that little bit more filler into the joint because the parent material is so thick. I use mainly .045 rod for everything. I used .063 for some of the welding in the axle housing again because of parent material thickness and I never use .090, that is like using coat hanger:D :D

Support staff????? HAHAHA!!!! There are only two of us working on these trucks now. The others have been moved over to other projects, so there really isn't much of a support staff

Thanks for the answer/pointers.... Would like to see the 4 hours of welding in a mirror.

Again fantastic work:D :D :D

No, really,, I'm glad you can't see the 4 hours of welding done in a mirror. It's not that there is that much that was done, only about 16 inches. It's just that it is so painful to do. It is a real mind F**K because everything is backwards when looking in a mirror. For me everything takes two or three times as long because you have to really think about every move you make with both hands. It's just a really slow process and then it only comes out about a quarter as good as you wanted or intended it to. I highly recommend to anyone who calls themselves a "Fabricator" to weld using a mirror. It will give you a whole different outlook on welding the easy / simple stuff.

Dump

[DRIVE Jon]

I don't think anyone asked... Are the new Trucks/Truggys 4WD or 2WD? No pics of the front spindles/uprights.

[14802]

No, 2WD, Very simular to the shark in the geometry, Proven to win!!!



I'm assumming your talking about the lower front wishbones on our current 4WD???

If so, no they are not "high-clearance" as you call them. The reason they are shaped that way on the old truck is because the lower ball joint is in the dirt, do to the nature of the 4WD application. This shape gives them some additional ground clearance at full bump. Sense the new trucks are 2WD there is no need to go to the trouble. You can see pictures of the new lower wishbones on the first page of this thread.

Dump

Hope this answers your question.

[DRIVE Jon]

Thanks...I looked, but it is a Monday afterall:D

Guess the 4WD is just not worth the extra complexity/weight? at least not for the TT class.

I can't wait to see one of these trucks in person!

[Superfab]

Nice job Derick. Welding with a mirror sucks for sure. You feel like a spazz. I've actually used a second mirror before to flip the image back but you can't allways do this. Thought about using a video camera & monitor to flip the image.

[CannondaleRider]

I know this is basically a copy of my previous post.

But this stuff is so, unbelievably amazing.

Love it!!!

[WoodyW]

Hey Derek, the other thread got me thinking, are the new trucks using the same 6-speeds? Or something different?

[DUMP!]

Hey Derek, the other thread got me thinking, are the new trucks using the same 6-speeds? Or something different?

Same, in fact for the first year or so we will use the tranys we currently have. But we will build new eventually.

Dump

[bcampbell04]

those trannys are amazing from what i've heard, just never have to lift. the engaging 2WD and 4WD is awesome. have a good source considering my boss drove the truck at the 1000 last year.

[DUMP!]

I’m board tonight and I’ve had something on my mind the last couple of days. If you guys want to comment on it that is fine, it is a non-rhetorical question and just some of my thoughts.:eek: :eek:

I was talking to someone the other day about the rear end housing that is in this thread and I asked if they had seen the pictures. Their responds was in such a way along with the tone as if they were asking, “why are you showing everyone what you are doing?” :confused: :confused: It made me think of the quote below.

Derek, great that your willing to show off so much of the work you've done, looks awesome. I'd be a little afraid to show it all off, just makes you come up with something better next time !--Wish I had a customer that willing for design work.--

Even though I have answered this quote once before I wanted to share a few of my thoughts about the subject.:cool: :cool:

“Why are you showing everyone what you are doing?”

The original reason is stated on the first page of the thread. Someone calling me out by telling me I was no longer any good at fabricating any more and that all I do is work on the computer. Man that was and is an ignorant statement.:p :p :p :p

Secondly and I’ve also said this from the start, we are not doing anything that is absolute magic. Everything you see in the pictures you have seen here before just built by someone else. So what is the big deal??? Someone please tell me if you think anything you have seen in this thread is ground braking because I don’t see that here.

Did any of you older guys ever build model cars when you were younger?? (Don’t answer, this is non-rhetorical also) I did and still do and frequent a forum like this one that is dedicated to model building. In that forum someone had brought up a good point that I think is relative to our industry as well. The point was about there not being very many younger (new) modelers entering the hobby and how in the not to distant future there may not be anyone left to teach the younger people interested in modeling the techniques and methods used.

I think this directly transfers over into the off-road industry, especially the fabrication end of it. Sure there are a lot of young guys out there that want to build race cars but who is teaching them?? Troy Johnson is doing a good job with the FAB School but he is one guy with one school. How many people really do you think he can make an impact on and more importantly how many of those people will stick with it after they are out of school?? I think that it would not hurt the older guys of this forum and of the industry as a whole to be more involved with educating anybody with a little interest.

Now, the good lord knows, I’m no teacher and there are some guys here in the forums that have worked with me and can back this up (Jkrell being one that comes to mind). I don’t have the patients or the temperament for it. Anyone that has learned something from me has probably done so by watching what I do more then by me actually teaching them. That is another reason for posting pictures of what we are doing. I know I do and always have learned better by doing then by being told. Showing me has always made a bigger impact then telling me.

Lastly, I’d be lying to myself and the rest of you if I didn’t say that since starting the thread it has not stroked my ego a bit, because it has. It is nice to be able to show people what you are doing and get positive feedback, Thank You All!!

OK, so now I’ll climb off my soap box or high horse as Matt Helton would probably call it and get back to welding.:D :D :D

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, considering my boss drove the truck at the 1000 last year.

Oh, one more thing, Brandon, tell you slacker boss we are still waiting for the graphics for inside the shop. It won’t be long before it will be a year since he came out and measured it all up.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Dump :D :D :D

[matt_helton]

jeez, i feel so honored to be drug back into this thread. :) nice welding btw.

[Jkrell]

Now, the good lord knows, I’m no teacher and there are some guys here in the forums that have worked with me and can back this up (Jkrell being one that comes to mind).

yea D, i'll back that up :D...but I don't really think RG's shop the 6 months before baja with 3 new cars to build facilitated the teacher/apprentice relationship much.

Its ironic to come home and read this post from you tonight because I was actually planning to write you an email to thank you for something I learned from you in this thread. I always tig 1/8 and 3/16 material with 1/16 filler...tried the .045 you mentioned you use...way better. I won't jack your thread with pics of my beat fab work but check out the '3700 builds' section of the jeepspeed sight if you want to see the steering arms i burned today with .045, a definite improvement over my old welding.

looking forward to seeing more progress.

[fishd00d]

Derek lets see pics of your tool box, inside and out. Heard its impressive.

[maxyedor]

I think some people fail to grasp just how difficult fabrication is. You can post all the pictures, measurements and settings, but there's still only a few people on this forum, or on the planet for that matter that could peice it all together. Even if you have the know-how and skills to build a TT, and read this post, you still need a breifcase full of cash to even start on a Herbst TT of your very own.

What I personaly take from this thread is the attention to detail, and the step-by-step thought process you apply to building seemingly simple things, and how it sets your work apart from other people doing nearly the same thing, both you and Tonelli start with the same raw materials and similar tools, but one of you ends up with an F1 quality TT, the other gets a death-trap. Sharing your secrets doesn't put you out of a job, it does however help to progress the art and ensure that the next generation of desert racers will have trucks to race in. Thanks again for sharing!

[CRAIGHALL]

Derek, when did you actualy start start to draw the chassis or components ? I realize there was probably alot of sketch work in placing the critical components, before any thing could of been drawn. I'd assume you use solid parts to check fit & clearance before designing the sheetmetal assembly as well.

Curious how you sent the tube dimension (notching) to be cut.I dont have a tube add on program (solidedge) so it's extremely difficult to measure the clocking of a tube with two notches at different angles-does Solid works allow you to measure that ? Our Laser software is very straighforward, with all inputs are from the tube centerline. Too bad it doesn't support a 3-d import.

[BarrelRoll]

This thread is great. I'm going to school to become a high school shop teacher and am definitely going to throw some of these pictures up on the shop wall when I get a job/ shop this fall for inspiration. Are looking for an "intern/ shop slave" for the summer? I'd love to work with a pro and learn some "pro grade" skills to pass on to my students.

[DUMP!]

jeez, i feel so honored to be drug back into this thread. :) nice welding btw.

No problem Matt, and Thanks:D :D

yea D, i'll back that up :D...but I don't really think RG's shop the 6 months before baja with 3 new cars to build facilitated the teacher/apprentice relationship much.

Its ironic to come home and read this post from you tonight because I was actually planning to write you an email to thank you for something I learned from you in this thread. I always tig 1/8 and 3/16 material with 1/16 filler...tried the .045 you mentioned you use...way better. I won't jack your thread with pics of my beat fab work but check out the '3700 builds' section of the jeepspeed sight if you want to see the steering arms i burned today with .045, a definite improvement over my old welding.

looking forward to seeing more progress.

John I checked you out over there at 3700. You have quite the project going, Nice job, the welds are looking really good, keep it up!!!

Derek lets see pics of your tool box, inside and out. Heard its impressive.

I hope you don't get board!!!

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35125

I think some people fail to grasp just how difficult fabrication is. You can post all the pictures, measurements and settings, but there's still only a few people on this forum, or on the planet for that matter that could peice it all together. Even if you have the know-how and skills to build a TT, and read this post, you still need a breifcase full of cash to even start on a Herbst TT of your very own.

What I personaly take from this thread is the attention to detail, and the step-by-step thought process you apply to building seemingly simple things, and how it sets your work apart from other people doing nearly the same thing, both you and Tonelli start with the same raw materials and similar tools, but one of you ends up with an F1 quality TT, the other gets a death-trap. Sharing your secrets doesn't put you out of a job, it does however help to progress the art and ensure that the next generation of desert racers will have trucks to race in. Thanks again for sharing!

Thanks, and the sharing part is my pleasure.:) :) :)

Derek, when did you actualy start start to draw the chassis or components ? I realize there was probably alot of sketch work in placing the critical components, before any thing could of been drawn. I'd assume you use solid parts to check fit & clearance before designing the sheetmetal assembly as well.

Curious how you sent the tube dimension (notching) to be cut.I dont have a tube add on program (solidedge) so it's extremely difficult to measure the clocking of a tube with two notches at different angles-does Solid works allow you to measure that ? Our Laser software is very straighforward, with all inputs are from the tube centerline. Too bad it doesn't support a 3-d import.

There really was not much sketch work. I started by laying out the suspension geometry, wheel base etc. Then started building solid parts like wishbones, spindles, rear end housing and rear trailing arms. Then I modeled the engine and transmission. I also placed a figure and seat into the mix. After all that I started playing with 3D sketches to develop the chassis. The chassis consists of 4 or 5 3D sketches. each sketch is it's own sub assembly. After figuring out where the tubes went I started with the sheet metal portions.

The tubes were notched right from the solid part file. I don't know what the laser guy had to do to the file if anything but I sent him only the part file. The only way to measure something like that is to add reference geometry to the part to measure between, like a plane for example. You can measure the angle between planes and figure the deg of rotation between notches.

This thread is great. I'm going to school to become a high school shop teacher and am definitely going to throw some of these pictures up on the shop wall when I get a job/ shop this fall for inspiration. Are looking for an "intern/ shop slave" for the summer? I'd love to work with a pro and learn some "pro grade" skills to pass on to my students.

Sorry we already have a few rookies, we need some vets now.:D :D :D

Dump

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Curious how you sent the tube dimension (notching) to be cut.I dont have a tube add on program (solidedge) so it's extremely difficult to measure the clocking of a tube with two notches at different angles-does Solid works allow you to measure that ? Our Laser software is very straighforward, with all inputs are from the tube centerline. Too bad it doesn't support a 3-d import.
BendTech SE (http://2020softwaresolutions.com/bt_se.htm) can import/export SW files and they're working on an actual SW plug-in version of their tube-bending and notching software.

[KitRacer]

Derek, did you use the weldment funtion or did you use sweeps and extrudes for your tubes?

[DUMP!]

Derek, did you use the weldment funtion or did you use sweeps and extrudes for your tubes?

Sweeps and extrudes. I have never used weldments because I was told when I was learning Solidworks that weldments would not do what I needed it to do and that it would not give you individual part files.

Dump

[V8Ranger]

I'd recommend looking into weldments. I've drawn chassis both ways (swept & weldments) and I have a feeling you're going to cry after learning how much quicker/easier it is to use weldments. You still have to go in and touch up tubes if they're being notched into multi-tube joints but it's a heck of alot easier. Not to mention you don't have 10,000 different planes and sketches.

Matt

[properprerunner]

V8ranger,
could you elaborate on the weldament feature?
thanks

bryce

[McClintock]

In simple terms, you draw a 3d wire frame of the chassis (centerlines of tubes) & then assign each line(s) a cross section property. This converts the wire frame to a structure with the tubing geometry you input.

[DUMP!]

I'd recommend looking into weldments. I've drawn chassis both ways (swept & weldments) and I have a feeling you're going to cry after learning how much quicker/easier it is to use weldments. You still have to go in and touch up tubes if they're being notched into multi-tube joints but it's a heck of alot easier. Not to mention you don't have 10,000 different planes and sketches.

Matt

Thanks I'll look into it:D :D :D

Dump

[DUMP!]

V8ranger,
could you elaborate on the weldament feature?
thanks

bryce

In simple terms, you draw a 3d wire frame of the chassis (centerlines of tubes) & then assign each line(s) a cross section property. This converts the wire frame to a structure with the tubing geometry you input.

Hey Guys,,, How about starting a new thread???? This one is not about Solidworks:D :D :D

Thanks, Dump

[DUMP!]

OK, so progress has been slow on the chassis because I wanted to get started on the rear end housings. Having done that I'm trying to get back on the chassis. I lost a day and a half last week when, as luck would have it, one of our guys down prerunning in Baja for the 1000 needed some parts to make a fix on his prerunner and the rest of the team was on there way to Texas for the CORR race. So I was left to make the blast down south to the rescue. It was actually a nice brake to get out of the shop for a long day and go south.

OK then, back to the chassis. I built the rear pivot boxes. These are the rear suspension mounting points for the upper links and lower track arms. They will integrate into the floor that is all sheet metal and into the rear bulkhead.

Hope you like them, Dump

[DUMP!]

And this is how the rear bulkhead looks after a few hours of polishing and fitting. Next I will start on the front clip, fire wall forward.

Thanks for looking, Dump

[uncledirty]

Hey Dump, you must really look forward to going to work every day.
Thank you for sharing.

[Offspring]

Just read the whole thread...I need to smoke a cigarette now, thanks for a peak inside...incredible work...

[zjohnson]

Once again awesome work and craftsmanship. Derek, how do you like the current fixture setup that you are using? It looks like it does an awesome job of holding the parts, but looks like it could be easier to work around.

[DUMP!]

Hey Dump, you must really look forward to going to work every day.
Thank you for sharing.

I really enjoy my work and the shop and equipment are first class but like any other job there are some draw backs. I currently find myself starting work at 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon and working until about 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning just so that I can avoid the drama caused by a couple of personality conflicts. :confused: :confused:

Just read the whole thread...I need to smoke a cigarette now, thanks for a peak inside...incredible work...

No problem and Thanks. Was it good for you?? :D :D :D

Once again awesome work and craftsmanship. Derek, how do you like the current fixture setup that you are using? It looks like it does an awesome job of holding the parts, but looks like it could be easier to work around.

Thanks!!!

I am happy with the tooling we have. Just the fact that everything is coming out as nice as it is makes the tooling worth it. It is somewhat cumbersome at times but as long as everything keeps working out the way it has I'll deal with it. I really could not think of any other way to do this so that every tube is welded 100% before the next tube is put over it. So far there is only one tube that is not welded 100% and that one is welded at least 85-90% also it is in what I consider to not be a high stress area. The tooling that makes up the Rear Bulkhead has served it purpose and actually could be removed. The only reason it is still on the table is because I want to get the front Fire Wall in place before I remove it. Then at that point the tooling that located the Fire Wall could be removed as well.

Dump

[Dezertpilot]

Hope we like them? This is ART!:eek:

[Jkrell]

Looks real good D. Question: How are you dealing with the tubes that don't fit into their location when notched properly? It looks as though some of your fixtures would make it especially difficult to get some tubes into their proper location. Something tells me you're not beating them in with a hammer. Are you cutting out a section of the notch and then welding it back in?

thanks.

[DUMP!]

Looks real good D. Question: How are you dealing with the tubes that don't fit into their location when notched properly? It looks as though some of your fixtures would make it especially difficult to get some tubes into their proper location. Something tells me you're not beating them in with a hammer. Are you cutting out a section of the notch and then welding it back in?

thanks.

Hey Jon,

You must have missed the 36 inch long 45lb dead blow hammer in the "Tools of the Trade" thread then.

No seriously, there are a few tricks I've been using. But before I tell you, you need to understand that I tried to keep this in mind when designing the chassis and make it so that each tube could be inserted, welded and then the next tube would fit over the top of that. Obviously this would not be the best scenario if you end up fitting a .120 wall tube over a .065 wall tube so in some areas the order of fit had to be in accord with the wall thickness. And yes there are plenty of tubes that will get "persuaded" into place by the swing press. The first trick is remove the pins of the fixture so that you can insert the tube, maybe this is obvious (and the easiest). Next there have been some areas like the first picture below of the rear roll hoop where I would tack everything together, weld where a tube was going to fit over another and then use a port-a-power to spread tubes apart so that the remaining tubes could be inserted. The center "V" of the rear roll hoop was done this way. Last tric