The "Project"

[FABRICATOR]

A machine of many beginnings and many ends.

[FABRICATOR]

#1) Early stages of exhaust plumbing. Hmmm, what kind of mid-mounted motorvation is this?

#2) Bead formed in 1.75 x .050 Al tube with "homemade" beading tool.

#3) Tuba lessons. :)

#4) 1/2" ss lines going to steering gear unit with 2 each 3.125" pistons. 1.75" x .035" ss line to radiator.

[eliwallace]

Are U Closer To The Beginning Or The End With This Project. And Is That A Chevy Conversion ?

[partybarge_pilot]

If he's doing plumbing, I'd say it's closer to the end.

[Rory]

What EXACTLY is "The project"?

[eliwallace]

gotcha ..... so when is this thing likely to hit the dirt

[FABRICATOR]

It is much closer to the "end".
Whatever a "Chevy Conversion" is, this isn't. The concept for this project centered on Chevrolet V-8 power from the beginning. In fact, it was quite a bit GM by way of GM Performance Parts, AC/Delco, and Hydra-Matic. Originally slated for the SBC motor, room and "other accommodations" were always retained for the BBC. It's BBC now. Time to dirt, uncertain.

What EXACTLY is "The project"?
It's hard to pinpoint as it has a very long and spotty history to it. It started out as an ambitious, privately funded, multi-level advertising proposal to be offered to one or more divisions of a large automaker, back when they did things like that. That part of it predates Big Mac. The objective was to create a vehicle capable of overall dominance in a desert racing venue, not only against new rivals such as Toyota but anything else that might come along in the forseeable future.

[Scott_F]

Hey FAB, can you post some more pics of this mythical beast? Especially chassis and drivetrain? :)

Your never ending build reminds me of a friend who was building a custom 4 stroke dirt bike, before the '98 YZ400F changed everything. He stuffed a Husaberg engine in his own perimeter frame, with light weight components selected from various models. I think he got about 90% done, but then the project faded away. Maybe he lost interest, or history caught up and left it in the dust.

I hope you will finish yours this decade. My project is coming along slowly, and I want to beat you out of the garage, because I won't be able to catch you off road with my little six shooter!

[FABRICATOR]

Hey Scott, where’s your show-and-tell thread?

Mystery and doubt perhaps, but it's no myth.
Pictures? If what it is and why it is, are not understood, then how is meaningless. As far as stopping and gathering dust, that has already happened a couple times. There may be parts that history has caught up with, but there are many other parts and some major concepts, that history has not. Even today, there is little comparable in power, weight, travel, driver input, range, design correctness, or simplicity. On top of that, it's expected to require very low maintenance. And don't feel bad, it was intended from the very first thought that nothing ground based would catch it. :)

There's more on the many technical hurdles if interested. Right, wrong, good, or bad, this project was/is the most comprehensive in dezert racing. But for now, it rests in a void between hobby overkill and deficient commercial need.

[down4glamis]

your use of adjectives makes it sound so much more than the average TT. lol =). sounds like a truck that i was/would be talking about with the videos of the older trucks. i say older trucks, but they were and still could be fast and cutting edge. yours is say, outdated on its build date, but even the designs and concepts from then still stand today, and it could be a show stopper. been waiting for someone,anyone to come out and step away from the cookie cutter (i know i know, some are diffrent) chassis design and wheelbase/weight/ etc etc

[FABRICATOR]

Okay, this may ruin my chance for a skunks feature, but one picture does not make a skunk and it's all there might be for a while. (It would be appreciated that anyone privy to this project in the past maintain confidentiality as promised.)

Here's a first time body-off picture of the antique, Geezer-built, rust bucket. :)

[500” BBC, “new” transaxle with quick-change gears, IFS/IRS (28”/33”) with interface to auto/driver input, 125” W/B, steering is one turn lock to lock, 80 gallon cell, race weight approx. 4,000 pounds. Seat, radiator, or shock <6 minutes. Water pump, distributor, or final drive ratio <10 minutes. Overall quite simple, low C/G, low unsprung wieght, approx 6 lb/hp, and well under $1 million!]
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/convel/FrontS2.jpg

[Samco Fab]

That "Project" looks cool, are the front lower shock mounts in the blacked out area at the outer end of the lower control arm and super layed down at full compression, or highly inboard mounted like on the new Pfleuger Machine?

Will it run 35's or 37's?

Will it see dirt soon?


Watch out for giant potatoes, if you hit one with that front skid plate you might have a ton of french fries to deal with:D

I cant wait to hear the whole story about the "Project"

[moabWalker]

Please sir I'd like some more... This looks amazing and it would serve most of us well to take a long look at the way FAB put it together. I've been standing in back listening to FABRICATOR's advice for a while and I always wanted to know what his truck looked like. If I was that talented I probably wouldn't start giving my secrets out on the web; just giving a little nibble and pulling away. Much respect FABRICATOR. Stay up.

[FABRICATOR]

Thank's for the good words! :) Feel free to critique as well. As those who design know, there can be a tremendous amount of work in something that looks very simple. This was also put together before there was CNC in every shop, and before the age of "bling".

I do need to apologize to Mr. John Bitting. He's been waiting patiently for a very long time to skunk the beast. Well it's just not ready to show at other angles. Not because of the stage it's in, but because of how things work. (Sorry, the "blackouts" looked OK on one monitor and pretty bad on another.) FWIW, it's only been shown here.

The front shocks are not laid down, or connected similar to Mr. Pfleuger's new TT. They are simple coil-overs and position sensitivity is provided without by-pass technology. (read: smoooooothly)

Good or bad, absolutely nothing on the car is similar to Mr. Pfleuger's new TT, aka "Dirty Harry".

If it looks like there should be a tube here or a gusset there, it's because there probably should be a tube here or a gusset there. Tubes were left out for access.

The front arms may look vulnerable to some, but the main reason for big boxed arms is to hold up to bypass shocks, not the bumps. The great Dodges, mighty Toyota, and venerable Arnold, Trophy-Trucks, all had/have open tubular lower control arms. The arms, and many other important components, are upgradable. But the rear is designed to be much more boulder and impact resistant.

The upper skid plate does look a little old fashioned. It's wide to help protect the radiator. And that would be...Flamin Hot Cheetos, not french fries! The lower plate is about 8" wide, made from .250 4130, and goes all the way back to the seats. That's so it can survive almost any hit (in the center at least), provide substantial lower lateral strength, and to help to keep the front end down. Many things, including the dual batteries that sit on the floor, were moved forward and low.

To make a long story very short, factory support was out and about, then it wasn’t, permanently. Even the biggest and most successful teams could not keep the doors open. But some things did get finalized before the big plug was pulled. I'll try to explain what our little group considered necessary to take on the western dezerts.

[MikeAdams]

I remember you mentioning this thing in another thread eons ago..

Can't wait to see the skunk and the whole story. Secrecy allways makes things more fun lol..

[moabWalker]

"it was intended from the very first thought that nothing ground based would catch it."

Does Johnny Campbell still have his flight license for the XR?

[Johnson328]

Can't wait to see more!

I like that it's shrouded in secrecy.

[FABRICATOR]

Thank you for the interest. I assure you that omissions are not for fun and games. Certain specifications and advantages need to remain vague for a while as they too can reveal significant matter.

Fast forwarding past the observations, study, research, brain picking, and various other influences...

Ever see a list of requirements for a truly unlimited car? Most would scoff at the very thought, little less grab it by the horns. The very first one gave different meaning to the term “clean slate” and presented mammoth design challenges.

It needed to have substantial power (that one was easy),
It needed to have IRS with improved capability and control,
No existing transaxle was close to what was needed in strength, proportions, or layout,
No known rear suspension layout was adequate (either weak, short, or both),
Unsprung weight had to be kept very low (this one collided with by-pass technology),
This kind of travel to power/weight ratio would require an interface to automatic and/or driver input,
Enhanced control was to be applied to all driver comand functions.
Safety and reliability were paramount, and had to be improved (No leaf springs, plunging CV’s, etc.),
Maintenance was to be low, and trackside component change AQAP,
Perfomance and range were to be maximized. Race weight had to stay under 4,500 pounds.

Of course this was only a get-started list. There was at least one list generated for each item on the list.

Anyone else make such a list? Does it have to cost a $million? How do you spot problems on the drawing board? How do you know what will work? Where does one begin?

[Johnson328]

How many people were assigned to the project ?
All of my questions would equate to a very large post, so I'll start there.

[FABRICATOR]

How many people were assigned to the project ?
All of my questions would equate to a very large post, so I'll start there.
Actually producing something? A whopping 4. Of course there was also collaboration with outside powertrain and other gear/drive specialists.

[Johnson328]

Did any of the the specialists come from the world of heavy/medium duty trucks & similar manufactuers?

I realize you're probably not going to divulge too much, but I just can't help asking. How about that Skunks feature?

[FABRICATOR]

One was a racing transmission manufacturer and one was, well let's just say part of the industrial world. My entire career has centered around medium and heavy duty trucks. On trucks you will find the best electrical components, alternators, and steering components. You will also find the very best engine air cleaning and cooling technology. Trucks can also give one an extensive and unique look into part failures, systems design, design flaws, and the effects of operational abuse. Everyone that designs or builds for dezert racing could learn plenty from trucks.

Interesting mention of trucks and drivetrains. When you are in the unknown you look to the proven, even it's if from a different arena. From trucks came part dimensions, from the trans maker came the parts.

[Johnson328]

One was a racing transmission manufacturer and one was, well let's just say part of the industrial world. My entire career has centered around medium and heavy duty trucks. On trucks you will find the best electrical components, alternators, and steering components. You will also find the very best engine air cleaning and cooling technology. Trucks can also give one an extensive and unique look into part failures, systems design, design flaws, and the effects of operational abuse. Everyone that designs or builds for dezert racing could learn plenty from trucks.

Interesting mention of trucks and drivetrains. When you are in the unknown you look to the proven, even it's if from a different arena. From trucks came part dimensions, from the trans maker came the parts.

I'm a parts jockey in the world of heavy duty/midrange. I've worked for Cummins and International in my twelve years as a parts guy. I've seen so many things that could be implemented to desert racing, it makes my mind wander.......

Hope to see more & hear more!

[FABRICATOR]

To make another long story very short, it was determined that while AWD/4WD had handling advantages, and could do a similar job with slightly less travel, it also had disadvantages such as increased weight, complication, maintenance, and power loss. The weight and power penalties show up during a race in the form of decreased fuel range, performance, and tire life. In addition, when it comes to cars with high power to weight ratio, there is little to show that 4WD can out-accelerate an optimized 2WD on any terrain other than something like ice or mud where it is difficult to transfer weight. An eye was kept on overall vehicle efficiency. Weight has a voracious appetite for more weight. The point at which you first ignore it in design, is the point at which it is already out of control.

Front engine/transmission arrangements also had good and bad points. They offered great convenience, fairly good balance, and good ride qualities. On the downside, they end up and need to be somewhat heavier, compromises are made to the cars CG, and fuel placement is a huge compromise, especially when compounded with spare tire placement. Having fuel storage near the middle of the car and on the floor remained high on the wish list.

An early and viable consideration was a front engine/rear transmission arrangement, similar to the early 60’s Pontiac Tempest designed primarily by GM’s John Delorean. It was quite similar to what GM used on the Corvette 40 years later (it also later showed up on the Scalzo Class 1 car). The Tempest not only had the unique drive layout, but also was the introduction of the, then potent, little 215 all aluminum V-8 engine. Its drive design used a long torque tube and solid bar torsional drive shaft between the engine and rear mounted transaxle. But, there were two basic concerns that kept this arrangement from rising above all others for dezert racing. For one, to obtain full potential, there was still a need for some form of transaxle or unitized drive in the rear. The other was that no matter how things were laid out, the engine always seemed to interfere with front suspension, steering, or occupants. Though the arrangement was not yet abandoned, the search went on and mid-ship engine placement also continued to stay high on the wish list.

[zjohnson]

I notice some nye frank influence in the front of the car. . . right?

When we gonna get another pic of the mythical beast?

[ACID_RAIN28]

The old Class 2? that bryan kudela built for Larry ragland was a front engine rear transmission setup. How ever one of the down falls to that vehicle was the rising rate suspension.

[John_Bitting]

early 60’s Pontiac Tempest

Was it metallic mint green? Sorry I guess I have watched "My Cousin Vinny" way too many times.

[Johnson328]

Fabricator - PM sent

[Johnson328]

Are you ready now?

I'm checking for updates everyday! It has been possessing my thoughts!

[Ricardo]

what ever became of this "project" ?

[13inc.]

do any of these ideas come from other motorized worlds... as like the design on a jet.. airplane.. boat????? i do love the photoshop skills... keeps me on the edge!! :D

[13inc.]

indy suspension play any part of the suspension design??

[Matt_Stankavich]

I just have to ask. This isn't an old Bunderson chasis that Billy Bunch had for awhile is it?

[FABRICATOR]

I notice some nye frank influence in the front of the car. . . right?

When we gonna get another pic of the mythical beast?

Some influence from Nye Frank and others in off-road, and some from people in other venues. The biggest influence was the attitude. Race to win, expect to win, innovation a necessity.

The old Class 2? that bryan kudela built for Larry ragland was a front engine rear transmission setup. How ever one of the down falls to that vehicle was the rising rate suspension.

I think I saw them all, never observed what I thought was a boldly rising rate system. I applaud Bryan Kudela for recognizing the potential long ago and never giving up on it.

Was it metallic mint green? Sorry I guess I have watched "My Cousin Vinny" way too many times.

No, not the car in the movie. The poor thing was thrashed and carefully dissected long before the movie came out. Nothing ended up usable on any scale.

Are you ready now?
Yes and no, not nearly as much time for the WWW these days. Hopefully that will change.

I'm checking for updates everyday! It has been possessing my thoughts!
Sorry. And I know the feeling well.

what ever became of this "project" ?
?? It's still around.

do any of these ideas come from other motorized worlds... as like the design on a jet.. airplane.. boat????? i do love the photoshop skills... keeps me on the edge!! :D
There are a few things from aerospace. Things like fastening methods, plumbing, high-side fluid filtering, anti-friction controls, and the combining of strength with efficiency.

indy suspension play any part of the suspension design??
Inspiration mainly, but there are a couple of things geometric and several anti-friction load points. Both of these are also carried over to the steering.

I just have to ask. This isn't an old Bunderson chasis that Billy Bunch had for awhile is it?
No.

[SpceSpff]

Please give us more info, this is killing me haha. Another picture maybe? Pretty please?

[fatnbald]

Please give us more info, this is killing me haha. Another picture maybe? Pretty please?

to much "tell", not enough "show"

[DUMP!]

to much "tell", not enough "show"Grin :) :p

[DesertGuy1]

Isn't this the Race Design car that was floating around the net some years back? If not, it sure does look similar.

http://www.racedesign.com/pictures.htm

I remember pictures of it when I started learning about the whole desert thing... did it ever get wrapped up?

[JPBart]

Interesting...the website is down. Conspiracy? I thought I saw a black helicopter a minute ago.......

[McClintock]

Was just up. Didn't miss out on much though.

[matt_helton]

i saved all the pics before the link crashed. ;)

[ACID_RAIN28]

i saved all the pics before the link crashed. ;)

well let them come to the light then ;)

[jessmotorsports]

Does this "project" really exist? I have read about it for a while and not seen any more pictures. Or is this like a teaser leading up to something big? I just dont understand I guess.

[dezerts10]

well let them come to the light then ;)

thats not nice. all the pics I took of the "other" secret truck were not posted.

Gregg

[therail]

Does this "project" really exist? I have read about it for a while and not seen any more pictures. Or is this like a teaser leading up to something big? I just dont understand I guess.

I agree. Someone doubted DUMP!, and he put up, big.

[Johnson328]

Please? Pretty please?

[FABRICATOR]

Dammit, leave me alone. J/K!!! :)

Someone asked if it's real? Na, just some incredible Photoshop :rolleyes:.

Sorry, no bright and blingy photos, no flashy CAD, only half dozen or so multi-purpose jigs, full scale mechanical models, a small cluttered shop, and very low budget. But if it were real it woulda, shoulda, coulda, been kinda like this:

--Except for track width and the bottom of the rear down tubes, it would fit snugly inside the silhouette and skin of a 19xx:eek: full-sized
extended cab CHEVROLET TRUCK. (tailgate and all :rolleyes: )

--It would have an octagon chassis, for many, many reasons (one of the earliest for the dezert), 17 point cage.

--Kind of dreamy I know, but there would be 2 batteries right on the floor to help keep C/G low, maybe in an aluminum box or something.

--It would have a full access electrical system, maybe in another box (R&R in about 8 minutes) right above those batteries. The box might even have a built in Snap-On test light inside :rolleyes:.

--A six gauge panel with breakers in front of said box that would fold down flat for service (What, no shifter in the way?)

--Highly progressive (at times...) single shock front suspension, 6 minutes (out the bottom).

--Fuel cell on the floor to help keep C/G low (might even be wall-to-wall, but the aforementioned octagon makes for a nice bottom ;) ).

--Really long travel is kind of iffy but definatley has advantages in some places, such as going straight ahead over the rough. So rather than ignore it and make it go away, I would have (edit******we can get back to this later, sorry******)

--Steering would be significantly more powerful, faster, more precise, more reliable, and sensitive, but with significantly decreased maintenance costs. (You would see the tie rod behind the axle if it were installed).

The IRS drive train? Well, FWIW, I would use a system laid out long before the designer of Dirty Harry had anything to do with off-road racing.

It would have been sooooo simple, too bad it's only a mirage. :(
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/convel/sideview01-1.jpg

In case some don't get it yet, this is not a popularity contest. Even if it went out and won, The Project was far too much work to brag about in any way. Confusing, yes. I myself don't know what it is at this point, and a couple things might be built a little differently today. But this thread is real and is simply an overview of what I thought it would take to go a little faster, then and now. Love it or hate it, 10,000 hits for virtually one picture so far, ain't too bad! THANK YOU for your time!!

If I don't post here again in time, have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and the HAPPIEST of HOLIDAYS!!!

[Johnson328]

Sir, thank you very much!

I apologize for bothering you.:D

[zjohnson]

I'd like to thank dump again for full disclosure. Would be nice here. . . ;)

[therail]

I'd like to thank dump again for full disclosure. Would be nice here. . . ;)

If there was something to disclose....

[jessmotorsports]

I would assume there is since there are blacked out spaces.
But who knows maybe the future of off road racing as we know it, was built years ago and will be hidden for all eternity behind Orange and Black...

[Iggle]

I'd like to thank dump again for full disclosure. Would be nice here. . . ;)

Post some more pictures already...

[mattb]

Finally he posted pics on another thread!!! It's just what we expected!! JK

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37734&page=5

Post #46

[SimonSays]

Finally he posted pics on another thread!!! It's just what we expected!! JK

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37734&page=5

Post #46

lol

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30850&d=1198941240

[TallKewl7]

/Shop/Show&Tell is a forum dedicated to your projects. Here you may start a thread about your current or past vehicle project and share it with everyone. You are encouraged to include lots of pictures with your post and keep updating the progress.

This forum is not to ask tech questions.


Speaking as a fan and a casual builder.....I think that pretty much says it all.

Marshall

[Johnson328]

Any more spy satellite photos of this machine to share?

[Dustd]

:D The other one gets caught by the economy and this one is turning out to be a myth...:D

Oh well:cool:

[giannini]

any un edited photos? come on dont keep everyone hangin

[FABRICATOR]

Arm assembly: 1 each
Material: 4130
Length: approx. 30"
Weight: 10.00 pounds
Rod Ends: .875" x .750"
Finish: bead blast/OSH clear

[SpceSpff]

Why do the arms bolt together at the uniball cup? Just curious :)

[philofab]

It looks like the arm needs to hinge there in order to allow cambler/caster adjustment without binding at the chassis mount. These arms are very similar to what is used in late model dirt modifieds.

All the force on the two bars of the arm are either tension or compression without any real side load. A very simple and strong upper a-arm.

[Johnson328]

Please sir, may I have another?

[fashionbiff]

Freaking unicorn car it can't be real. :)

[FABRICATOR]

Why do the arms bolt together at the uniball cup? Just curious :)

Philophab is right on. When you make adjustments to wheel alignment with any 3-point arm, you slightly change the distance between the two swivel joints in relation to the chassis. It is very popular to put a jog in one or both legs at the base of the 'A' (or 'J') in order to have the threaded portion of the rod end(S) point straight into the chassis. This lowers the amount of change to joint spacing when turning the rod end(s) in or out.

With this arm, the friction joint is loosened for the wheel alignment process but has nothing to do with alignment. It simply allows adjustments to be made at the rod ends with no effect on spacing.

But the true purpose of using this design is to allow more efficient arm construction. Each leg of the arm is straight. Billet pieces are designed and welded straight. Threaded sections are straight. Rod ends are straight. Virtually everything but the unibal cup is loaded in simple tension or compression, no bending or angled loads within the arm or on the chassis mounting brackets.

Most of the parts of this arm are oversized in order to handle the unexpected. The 2 legs and pinch bolt fit together tightly and have large surface areas at the friction joint. The .750 shank flanged pinch bolt and nut provide high clamping capacity and large surface areas for vibratory and/or unexpected shear loads. Though in this particular application the same arm will work on either side of the car, identical component parts are simply welded in different positions to create right and left hand arms.

Though this control arm by itself contributes only about 6 pounds to unsprung weight, it rivals nearly any other in both strength and rigidity. Each leg of the control arm easily stays in the 35-40,000 pound load range, which is well into the TT zone. It is not particularly difficult or expensive to produce. And of course being a centered arm, it hands no superfluous loads to the chassis like that of J-arms or some offset A-arms.

I can’t show the lower arm just yet but I can tell you it is slightly simpler, slightly longer, slightly heavier, and slightly stronger.:)

[redbaronrace]

allmost looks like the old castex truck/truggy .........but i know where that one is , COPY?

[Dumfast]

Its been awhile...Please...May we see more?

[Johnson328]

I agree, I check everyday to see if the project has a new update!

[ACID_RAIN28]

Dammit, leave me alone. J/K!!! :)



--Kind of dreamy I know, but there would be 2 batteries right on the floor to help keep C/G low, maybe in an aluminum box or something.

--It would have a full access electrical system, maybe in another box (R&R in about 8 minutes) right above those batteries. The box might even have a built in Snap-On test light inside :rolleyes:.

--A six gauge panel with breakers in front of said box that would fold down flat for service (What, no shifter in the way?)--Fuel cell on the floor to help keep C/G low (might even be wall-to-wall, but the aforementioned octagon makes for a nice bottom ;) ).

The IRS drive train? Well, FWIW, I would use a system laid out long before the designer of Dirty Harry had anything to do with off-road racing.





Batteries low done
full access electrical system done
breakers easy to service done
I guess you could have a spare painless wiring kit ready to go

your right 1983 was soooo long after the start of desert racing ha

and FWIW our upper is only 4.5 pounds of unsprung with hardware and has survived a crash already

[hangten33]

Post more Pics when you can!!:D:D

[Johnson328]

Yes, pics would be the best! Although, the updates of progress is good too!

I just want to see it in person.......

[DEZERTBOUND]

:)we are waiting.

[FABRICATOR]

Batteries low done
full access electrical system done
breakers easy to service done
I guess you could have a spare painless wiring kit ready to go

your right 1983 was soooo long after the start of desert racing ha

and FWIW our upper is only 4.5 pounds of unsprung with hardware and has survived a crash already

Sorry, I was a bit off and recollected 1984, and not much dezert at the time either. Go back another 11 years and you'll be in the ballpark. That wiring would be section looms, mil spec flame resistant wire, and cannon plugs, not Painless. I'm honestly glad it is all seen as simple, dull, and boring. The entire drive layout, steering system, and the entire suspension are equally dull and boring. But they don't work the same. Simple by any casual observer.

You know, I never claimed the "Project" was any good or worth squat, only that it was comprehensive. While on the subject of Harry being "done, done, done", where did all that money actually go? That drive arrangement was considered early on and was turned down for several reasons. It is doomed to compromise in the areas of power, travel, axle geometry, CV longevity, suspension geometry, overall reliability, efficiency, fuel range, changing gear ratios, and maintenance costs. Does Harry excel in any of these areas?

Or did the money go into the suspension? If so, why carry over by-pass technology when other things work so well? Was consideration given as to its effects on unsprung weight or overall weight? Do your on-the-fly adjustable shocks take care of body roll? If so, does the system work under all conditions, in all directions? Is it instantly manual, automatic, or anywhere in between? No, then the system must do something even more important. I'm having a hard time thinking of what that might be on a Trophy Truck. I wonder if something that could affect body roll might naturally lend itself to affect ride height? Oops, did I say that?

Spares perhaps, but fuel up high and out the back, with IRS??? Oh well it's only fuel, 500 pounds of high polar moment one minute and gone the next.:)

Someone should be paying you guys for that air ducting.

Oh, good job on those upper arms. That's just about where the similarities end along with the blingless free pics. :)

[FABRICATOR]

allmost looks like the old castex truck/truggy .........but i know where that one is , COPY?
Its been awhile...Please...May we see more?
I agree, I check everyday to see if the project has a new update!
Post more Pics when you can!!:D:D
Yes, pics would be the best! Although, the updates of progress is good too!
I just want to see it in person.......
:)we are waiting.

I liked the CASTEX truck when it came on the seen. There are few similarities other than its simplicity.

What interests one probably won't interest another. Everything here is rough fit, dirty, and nothing is spiffed up for a blingy photo shoot.

The first picture is one of the back side of the bumper and radiator. Nothing special but the entire bumper assembly, including the radiator and it's mountings do come off as a unit and are replaceable. Upper A-arm mounts point straight to uniball path. The .250 4130N rock plate that runs about 10" down the front and over 4 feet along the bottom, is bent at the corner but has a supported joint a few inches back from the bend. The front of the rock plate is angled up at 39 degrees and the 'larger obstacle' plate at 44. Simple 2 sided shroud is all the cooling air ducting the car has which helps to keep things cool and easy to work on. The shroud and fans are angled to shoot exit air down and out behind the front wheels. Each side flows air separately so the fans can operate independently and still be effective if one should fail. Shroud is attached to the chassis not the radiator. Single pass radiator is mounted in steel trays with rubber sections at core plates. Top tray is held by 4 bolts, radiator lifts out the top in a couple of minutes. Diagonal chassis tube on each side runs from the A-arm/steering unit area, all the way up and out to the middle of the front pillars. Large aluminum coolant surge/reservoir tank sits a few inches above radiator. Bottom of tank has -8 line running to highest point on the thin wall stainless lower coolant tube. Top of radiator has small air bleed line running to middle side of tank. "Radiator" cap and all filling is done through surge tank. There is one independent air bleed near the top of the engine.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/convel/altfrnttogo4-20-1.jpg

Second picture is also of things going on behind the radiator. The powerful fan motors are mounted with aerospace quick release clamps and can be removed about as fast as one can unbolt the wires. All tubing is stainless. Two smaller 1/2" seamless lines go to the steering unit which bolts up under under the .250 4130N plate. Entire steering unit can be removed in well under 10 minutes.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f62/convel/plumb1go4-07.jpg

[tomahawkracefab]

I wonder if something that could affect body roll might naturally lend itself to affect ride height? Oops, did I say that?

torsion bar suspension ( low unsprung weight )...and i reckon theres a diff in the front....

[partybarge_pilot]

Those pics are over a year old, Done anything recently?

[zetapsi827]

i used to get berated all the time like this during the 5 years of our build. my usual answer, "give me some money and i'll finish it faster"

i'm sure it will look great, take your time, do it right.

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Why's this thread got everybody all balled-up?

[partybarge_pilot]

Why's this thread got everybody all balled-up?

Just a guess? The fantastic claims, lack of proof and progress.

[jo maoma]

Just a guess? The fantastic claims, lack of proof and progress.

http://www.800phonenumbers.com/images/bullseye.jpg

[ACID_RAIN28]

Sorry, I was a bit off and recollected 1984, and not much dezert at the time either. Go back another 11 years and you'll be in the ballpark. That wiring would be section looms, mil spec flame resistant wire, and cannon plugs, not Painless. I'm honestly glad it is all seen as simple, dull, and boring. The entire drive layout, steering system, and the entire suspension are equally dull and boring. But they don't work the same. Simple by any casual observer.

You know, I never claimed the "Project" was any good or worth squat, only that it was comprehensive. While on the subject of Harry being "done, done, done", where did all that money actually go? That drive arrangement was considered early on and was turned down for several reasons. It is doomed to compromise in the areas of power, travel, axle geometry, CV longevity, suspension geometry, overall reliability, efficiency, fuel range, changing gear ratios, and maintenance costs. Does Harry excel in any of these areas?

Or did the money go into the suspension? If so, why carry over by-pass technology when other things work so well? Was consideration given as to its effects on unsprung weight or overall weight? Do your on-the-fly adjustable shocks take care of body roll? If so, does the system work under all conditions, in all directions? Is it instantly manual, automatic, or anywhere in between? No, then the system must do something even more important. I'm having a hard time thinking of what that might be on a Trophy Truck. I wonder if something that could affect body roll might naturally lend itself to affect ride height? Oops, did I say that?

Spares perhaps, but fuel up high and out the back, with IRS??? Oh well it's only fuel, 500 pounds of high polar moment one minute and gone the next.:)

Someone should be paying you guys for that air ducting.

Oh, good job on those upper arms. That's just about where the similarities end along with the blingless free pics. :)

Most TT and Class one car to date have wiring systems that are mil spec in every way, eliminating the need for replacement or service, unless the smoke is ever let out of the wires. Cannon plugs are standard as well as deutsch connectors (sp)
Power: Is delivered to the ground through the suspensions design better than anyone involved has ever experienced. The old truck with a 460 could not even be close to the 430 100hp less motor in Harry in a drag race.
Travel: 32"
Axle geometry: well within the operating range of the joint.
CV longevity: so far out living PPI
Range: FAR FAR FAR
Gear Ratio Change: Easy as a normal Truck, but don't see the need unless we are racing CORR with it.
Maintenance: Is PAR with ATTILA
Fuel load and polar moment, the car becomes more NEUTRAL with every gallon it burns, making it fast as it runs. Unlike our old car where it was rear biased empty.

I use the same aerospace clamp style to hold my mufflers on, and my fans are similarly mounted in a quick change fashion.
The box is changed in 15min very easy to get to as you can see.

As for the Active suspension, you have to ask your self, why, and what could I use it for. Where could one benefit from it at. Then it would become obvious why.

I'm not saying it is better than everyone else, but I know it excels in the areas it was designed for.

I guess we will just have to see yours at the starting line ;)

[FABRICATOR]

Maintenance: Is PAR with ATTILA
Fuel load and polar moment, the car becomes more NEUTRAL with every gallon it burns, making it fast as it runs. Unlike our old car where it was rear biased empty.

As for the Active suspension, you have to ask your self, why, and what could I use it for. Where could one benefit from it at. Then it would become obvious why.
:rolleyes:


Acid, no matter what this turns into I appreciate you stopping in and bringing something that really is new to the table. And the best of luck with Harry.

As far as thinking about what's important in terms of active suspension for dezert racing, I can think of nothing that would be more universally applicable to increased speed and safety than reducing body roll. Other things may enhance jumping ability or focus on squat, dive, etc. But none of these individually make up more than a tiny fraction of one's lap time. Looking at it from a current Trophy Truck point of view, body roll becomes a pretty serious obstacle when you are considering shaving off around 2,000 pounds of vehicle weight, while maintaining the same suspension travel. Adding to the challenge is that, IMHO, it is also entirely possible to put just as much horsepower to the ground.

Body roll greatly affects speed while cornering. It requires a sacrifice of ride height to maintain stability. It reduces or eliminates visual capacity under acceleration. It reduces rough terrain capability under braking and acceleration. And it creates significant performance and safety conflicts with the suspension.

Controlling body roll with a torsion bar is inadequate for several reasons. They are one dimensional. Though some can be adjusted or turned on or off on-the-fly, they have no active capabilities at all. They cause significant drag in soft terrain. And they constantly create performance wasting under-traction, and driveline damaging over-traction.


Acid, if you're looking for a head to head with something that, for the most part, was aimed at taking out the PPI Toyota and Arnold, here’s my WAG on it. I’d say you are running pretty close on overall weight, close on front and rear un-sprung ratios, 6% less driveline efficiency, a draw on front travel, 3% less rear travel, 10% higher overall drive train heat, 12% less fuel range, 30% higher maintenance costs, and 500% higher initial costs. I would also reason slower steering, less sensitive driver controls, less active suspension capability, and lower overall reliability.

I'm probably wrong, but it's my understanding that Harry doesn't quite have a differential with that back-to-back CV set up. If that's the case, it would support the excitement about traction as nothing would ever rival it. A very similar setup has been used for short course, but this isn't short course. If Harry really does have no differential, or other torque limiting device, I would say you will be doing one or more of the following; putting up with significant heartache for a very long time, dialing back on power and traction, or giving away some wheel travel when you finally do add a differential. A strategic difference between The "Project" and Harry is that from day one it used a planetary gear differential. We can let your gear man chew on that one. I'm still chewing on why an R&P on a clean slate?

Another man eater from many years ago.

[Dumfast]

Was looking on the Trever Harris web site at the Dirty Harry test photos...Looked like some sort of torque limiter on the axles..Or is that a slip joint for plunge?...Does anyone know?

[FABRICATOR]

As far as I know, Harry uses Rzeppa joints which means plunge has to be accommodated elsewhere. Although a torque fuse of some sort would be fairly simple, it would be difficult to design a predictable self-recovering torque limiter within that overall diameter. I would guess they are there for plunge.

Sorry all, I didn't mean to post an old picture. Memory is fading...:o

Although heavy, there is a possibility of running a Mercruiser EFI. Crazy? Perhaps, but they are torque monsters and can be quite economical.

If the first one is a go, a progressive opening 1,000 cfm T/B will go with it. FWIW, this system is high quality, long lasting, no leak, middle of the ocean and back, stuff. :)

Steering hydraulics will be filtered on the high side and screened on the low. Aluminum 3,000 psi working pressure rated filter.

Stewart Stage 4 in front of timing cover that is nestled into front motor plate. Plate is O-ringed front and rear for reliability and also to provide quick and painless pump service. Look ma, no hammer, no prying, no scraping, no glue, and no gaskets. :eek:

[Dumfast]

Fabricator...You mentioned a planetary differential ...I was doing a little reseach and learned the old FWD Toronados had a planetary diff and a very interesting engine/Trans layout..Is the "Project" in any way the same?...Are you currently working on it?....Is there a time frame for completion?..Any possibility of some engine/trans/rear suspension pictures?..

[Johnson328]

Is it anywhere close to completion?

[FABRICATOR]

Fabricator...You mentioned a planetary differential ...I was doing a little reseach and learned the old FWD Toronados had a planetary diff and a very interesting engine/Trans layout..Is the "Project" in any way the same?...Are you currently working on it?....Is there a time frame for completion?..Any possibility of some engine/trans/rear suspension pictures?..

Is it anywhere close to completion?

Planetary differentials can be found in cars, trucks, and off-road equipment from forklifts to earth-movers. An advantage is that there are no bevel spider gears trying to push each other apart, but they offer other advantages as well. You don't see them everywhere because they are more expensive to make.

A few early Olsdmobile Toronados had planetary differentials but they would be limited to lighter duty off-road use. I have a couple of those on the shelf and they are nice units, right down to the needle bearing planets and clever lube system. That 'interesting engine/Trans layout' was used for many years on Toronados and Cadillac Eldorado's. The layout is not the same as the one used here. Sad to say, The "Project" has not been worked on for some time. But the shop did get a power upgrade and is finally being cleaned up. As mentioned, the suspensions, drive, and steering, have quite a bit of resources invested in them so pictures and indepth descriptions won't be flowing freely any time soon, if you know what I mean.

I was going to post a picture of a planetary differential that IMHO would be relevant to our sport, but got to thinking; how many, including major players in our sport, know what one looks like? One? Two? None? From somewhere near where we are now, and on, there is no difference between showing open aspiring minds some nifty things, and handing technology to the big dogs. Yea, I can hear it...the big dogs couldn't care less about these things. Give 'em time.

[glamisrnr]

How long have you been working on this project?

[partybarge_pilot]

So what's so top secret about a planetary diff? AKA Torsen T2? AKA Quaife ATB? AKA Detroit truetrac? I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few.

Anybody know where I can get one for a 35/40 spline unit for 9"/10" rearends.

[Rory]

So what's so top secret about a planetary diff? AKA Torsen T2? AKA Quaife ATB? AKA Detroit truetrac? I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few.

Anybody know where I can get one for a 35/40 spline unit for 9"/10" rearends.

Are you throwing rocks again partybarge? We'll have to put you in a corner until you behave yourself :D

[FABRICATOR]

How long have you been working on this project?
Forever, no doubt about it. However it has been reincarnated a couple of times. Think of building a small version of the very first Blackbird...pretty much by yourself.

So what's so top secret about a planetary diff? AKA Torsen T2? AKA Quaife ATB? AKA Detroit truetrac? I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few.

Anybody know where I can get one for a 35/40 spline unit for 9"/10" rearends.Sorry, I assumed most here knew what a real planetary gear system is. Ever see inside an automatic transmission or AWD transfer case?


Are you throwing rocks again partybarge? We'll have to put you in a corner until you behave yourself :D

That's okay, by "Big Dogs" I meant the top builders and gearbox designers on the planet, not uppity Chihuahuas with no teeth. :)

**********************************

IMHO, all the aftermarket differentials would be grenades in this environment. If you can, think of fully supported straight cut gears instead of unsupported little pasta shaped jobs waiting to chew the case up. Think incredibly strong with virtually no limit to torque, shock load, differential cycle, or longevity. Think of something lasting seasons, instead of just one race with your fingers crossed.

Is that it? Not by a long shot! Those are only the things that allowed it to be considered in the first place.

[partybarge_pilot]

Hey, you know what happens when you assume.......

Yes, I know very well what the inside of a transmission looks like, sun gear, planetary.... All that good stuff that looks a lot like the diffs I mentioned minus the interconnecting worms gears the do the actual torque splitting. Unless your actually trying to do gear reduction inside the diff with the planetary gears.

[FABRICATOR]

Okay, before anyone gets jacked up or excited, this picture has little to do with the drive layout of "The Project". However, it does show a differential that is very similar to what I'm talking about.

Unlike nearly every aftermarket type, these have an active [planetary] ring gear that properly engages the planet gears. Within the planet carrier, every planet gear is supported on its own dedicated shaft with a full complement of needle bearings.

The internal gear layout of the differential below is slighty different, as is the lock mechanism. But these differentials have no high-friction contact surfaces, no side thrusts anywhere, and no friction induced T/C. This means there is almost no heat generation or wear, ever. In an unlimited environment, there are other ways to maximize traction. Oh, and there is one other similarity to this one...NO EVIL R&P!!! ;)

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6891/ff12000fz3.jpg

[partybarge_pilot]

Actually, it does have a R&P, it's just far enough upstream that the majority of the gear reduction is after it. Looks like the old Ferrari box that Race-car engineering did an article on a couple years back.

Still, in those the planetary's aren't used for reduction, just torque split....... Kinda like all the units I listed before.......

[FABRICATOR]

Actually, it does have a R&P, it's just far enough upstream that the majority of the gear reduction is after it. Looks like the old Ferrari box that Race-car engineering did an article on a couple years back.

Still, in those the planetary's aren't used for reduction, just torque split....... Kinda like all the units I listed before.......

Apples to oranges and the shell game too! :rolleyes:

I think we know what a ring and pinion is. If you want to skew what component has arguably lost more dezert races or prevents the use of more horsepower, than any other, be my guest.

I never mentioned using the differential for reduction, nor would I have any desire to do such an illconcieved thing, especially with IRS.

The differential in the "The Project" is used for torque split, plain and simple. With all the money in the world, it would still remain that way. The only place in the drive I want lots of friction is where the tires meet the dirt. If you think the differential pictured above or the planetary assembly in an automatic transmission looks a lot like the ones you listed (see below), then you either have no clue as to what you are talking about, or you are well past the threshold of being legally blind. :cool:

The Torsen T2 and the Quaife ATB do not have an active [planetary] ring gear. Power is put directly into what amounts to a planet carrier. The planet gears are the ones that look (and would act) like endmill cutters.

Got to give it to ya PB, yea, it's kinda like all the ones you mentioned, except for the little things like construction, operation, power flow, and purpose. :rolleyes:
http://www.torsen.com/images/T2Rphoto_wpl.jpghttp://www.quaife.co.uk/assets/ATB-diff-Bamber-cutaway28033.jpg