Ideas For Fire Saftey In Cars

[Jerry B]

An oil pressure switch on the motor then wired to a relay switch on hot lead to the fuel pump. When an engine would lose oil pressure or stop it would shut down the fuel pump. The fuel pump switch inside the car could be an off, on and then momentary to bypass the oil switch to start the car.

ANYBODY WITH OTHER IDEAS

[FABRICATOR]

Not a bad idea. FWIW, the OEM's have had that for over 25 years now. Some, like Fords for instance, also have impact sensors in the body that shut off the fuel system.

At the very least the fuel and ignition should stop if the car is not right side up for a certain length of time.

[RacrDude]

The Prism trucks were wired just like that back in 1992...for that EXACT reason ( Some people thought it was silly...I bet they don't now. ). Same idea with the Cell Vent hose. Most guys just run it to the top of the cage and back down...not good when the car is laying on its side. In the Wehe fire, the vent hose did not stick down below the bottom of the car: Fuel Cell filled, overflowed onto the floor pan = Not Good. Next time at tech, go see Art and see what he thinks.

Good Thread...

[RacrDude]

Simply AMAZING to me that we can have OVER 30,000 Views and 154 post to Bash Travis and point fingers, yet Solutions/Answers/Ideas to help prevent this from happening in the Future...3 post.

[Jerry B]

I think it was Tom Schillings racing a brand new A-Arm Jimco class 10 car in Baja a few years ago. The car was racing on the asphalt section and rolled over on its side. The story goes that the gas filler protruded out the side of body of the car and as it slid down the highway it either pulled the filler neck out or took the cap off the fuel cell. The car burned to the ground.

[Jerry B]

A trophy truck was on fire just north of Zoo road about 4 years ago does anybody know what happened there? The driver and co driver were just watching it burn when we went by.

[bpthirteen]

Went to McKenzies this morning to look at fire systems. About $500 for a complete system with 2 nozzles. I think we are going to put one in until someone comes up with a better idea.

[Chris_Wilson]

I'm not sure Halon would do much in a non-enclosed area. Wouldn't the wind render it ineffective? I don't really know but that thought prompted me to convert my prerunner to a ColdFire system. I've never tested it and don't know if it would work but it seems more likely to work than Halon.

I really like the idea of an oil pressure switch to cut off both the ignition and fuel pumps.

[Chicken]

how does the fire system work that is 500$ it seem like a reasonable purchase to save a car that is worth money. what do you get, and detail please, i'm interested in running something...

[D.Mavis]

I think an onboard system is a must. But I think there is a very good chance that it will not put out the fire completely. If a nozzle isn't perfectly aimed at the fire its not going to put it out. Also halon will remove the oxygen which will extinguish the fire but it doesnt cool your headers (like water) or turn a flamable liquid like gas, oil or atf into a non flamable liquid like dry chem or some of the other extinguishers out there would, so once the halon blows away if the headers are still hot and theres still gas around, your car will start burning again. I'd look into an alternative to halon, about 10 yrs ago we had a fire and used halon, we ended up replacing it with a firefox system it was liquid so it would cool the motor/fire and it had some sort of solvent which would make any flamable liquids not flamable. There maybe better systems out there now. We also put a drychem in easy reach.

So back to my point I think you need to have a good 10lb dry chem fire extinguisher available once you get out. It is absolutely amazing how just a couple squirts of drychem at the base of a raging fire will put it out, while shooting it all over the place in a big cloud does nothing.

The onboard system could save your life and the 10 lb. drychem will save your car, although it will be messy. I dont think you can count 100% that any onboard system will put out a fire completely, and once they're gone they're gone. you need the drychem in addition.

Just my two cents

[sickrick]

All CORR vehicles have the oil pressure switch.

[Jerry B]

All CORR vehicles have the oil pressure switch.

How is it wired?
The cost Has to be less the 100 bucks. And so simple
An oil pressure switch
A Relay Switch put in line
A new toggle switch
Some wire and time

[ntsqd]

Used to be that you could buy the GM Vega Oil Pressure switch off the rack. Vega's never had a mech. pump even though they were carb'd. Those I think are ideal for this, I've used them in the past to control fuel pumps. One system I built used that switch as the ONLY switch to control the fuel pump. Don't think I'd do that in a race car, but for a streeter it worked really nice.
These switches have 3 terminals; IGN in, pwr out, & start by-pass so that the pump will run when cranking.

My thinking on a fire system is that it is there to buy you time to get out of the vehicle, not to save the vehicle. Getting you out is far, far more important.

If it also saves the vehicle then so much the better, but have some externally accessible dry chem's available for saving the vehicle.

About the only downside to such a switch is it's another thing to diagnose if you've got no fuel (or spark depending how it was used).

[Samco Fab]

I think the oil pressure switch serves 2 purposes, it has the saftey purpose to shut the pumps off for saftey, and if the engine has a loss of oil pressure...it will die and save the engine. Good stuff.

I have put a couple of vehicle fires out with ABC type handheld extinguishers, and I would recomend running at least one of the extinguishers larger than what is called out for in the rules. Some of the smaller extinguishers that are on some cars could not put out enough flame retardent and for long enough to put out much of a fire. Go with at least a 10 lb for your primary extinguisher.

One other problem that I see, and dont have the answer for is a good mount for the extinguisher. A handheld extinguisher will be the most effective device for putting your expensive car, or your good friend, so you need to get it quick. You also need to not have it exit the vehicle as you race...bounce out.

Almost all the extinguisher mounts I see, you need to not be in a hurry to remove, or you need to cut the duct tape or rubber strap holding them on. All of the common buckle type mounts are cheesy and not up to off road abuse. I noticed on another car very similar to the one burnt down, that you had to remove a wing nut style hose clamp, then the latch to get to the extinguisher. We need to access it as quickly as we do spare tires with super fancy latches.

If anybody can, please post up super cool extinguisher mounts in easily accessable places on off road cars. Off the top of my head I can think of the Herbst having some sort of can mount welded to thier cage. Lets see some good latch and mount ideas!!!

Here is an interesting one from RG's TT, anybody know about it?
http://www.desertrides.com/features/vehicles/gordonTT/imagepages/DSC01933.php

[MH20]

RPS makes a very nice mount for a smaller bottle. Saw it in person at the off road expo a few years back and it was a nice piece.

http://raceprepservices.com/rps.htm
http://raceprepservices.com/mount1.jpg

*Edit, added picture, look under products.*

[Jessro]

Oil pressure switches are a good idea. Can’t think of anything really bad about them right off hand. As a volunteer firefighter my ideas on the system strategies are what follows:
1. They are a good idea in principle, but too hard to design to specific functions.
2. Simple is smart, the less gadgets, gizmos, pipes, and other stuff that compose systems like these the better, less chance of failure due to damage or improper installation. Yet, sometimes simple doesn’t cut it, especially when it comes to life safety. Hence the reason why there are not a lot of these types of systems out there, too much liability for the manufacturers. 3. The question on which chemicals to use in the system. Each chemical has its own advantages and disadvantages for use on this type of emergency. On that note I wholly agree to a ten pound extinguisher. As for mounting, placement and the like for accessibility without having the thing bounce around or fly out of the vehicle my suggestion is simple. Make a sleeve for the extinguisher to reside in, kind of like a cozy for your pop or beer, and mount it in a reasonable place for driver / co-driver to grab. Pad it if you want, shag carpet works well. To secure the extinguisher, use some sturdy Velcro straps over the top. Only the right kind of pull on the straps will let it loose. And believe me, when you are surrounded by smoke and in a state of panic, even if you seem calm, you WILL be able to remove the extinguisher. Don’t fight with wing nuts and other time consuming things.

One idea that I have for the roll over issue would be very difficult to manufacture but it would work. Use a pendulum system, water level system, or any other angle finding devise and hook it to a computer. When the vehicle reaches a certain degree, doesn’t matter which side it comes from, the computer will register it has enough of an angle to constitute a roll over and will kill the engine. The computer that the system is hooked up to could be upgradeable to allow for more extreme angles, within reason of course. If the vehicle rolls over and lands on all fours and is good enough to drive, a simple flip of a switch will turn the computer back on and let you restart the vehicle. That was easy to say, putting such an idea to work will be harder. Now that I have had the idea I am going to fire up AutoCAD and design the thing if I can.

[ntsqd]

RPS makes a very nice mount for a smaller bottle. Saw it in person at the off road expo a few years back and it was a nice piece.

http://raceprepservices.com/rps.htm
http://raceprepservices.com/mount1.jpg

*Edit, added picture, look under products.*
From what I've heard just recently those aren't really in production. Nice looking part. Hopefully someone from RPS can fill in the details.

My thinking on a fire system is limit it to two nozzles. One pointed at the base of the engine's induction system and the other to flood the occupant area. They're only to buy you time to get out, not to possibly save the car.

[Superfab]

One of the first things on the Pastrana car I saw was the extinguisher mounter by thr headers on the frame rail. Not a good spot considering thats where the fire usually is. I personally plan to mount one on each side of our car in the passenger compartment and a third in the front somewhere. This is besides the onboard system. We have to remember we are usually away from outside help so all the extra stuff is merely an insurance policy. Also you have to be very aware of where your breathers are located. If the car is on its side or upside down will oil run on the headers? Little things like this may make all the difference. Also many of the new engine management computers shut off the fuel after the motor stops running for 15 seconds. Not a bad feature to have.

[MORE #911]

Need ideas for the most current and best on board system for a new 1600/12 single seat car build.. Thanks.

[14802]

Need ideas for the most current and best on board system for a new 1600/12 single seat car build.. Thanks.

This may not be the "most expensive" but does the job and is user refillable. They do offer a 4.6 liter system, it's just not listed http://www.firecharger.com/index.html

[TUBETECK]

Heres a question I've been wondering about since I installed my 3 nozzle system on my 5-16 car. The bottle that holds the fire putter outer liqid has a tube that runs down the center of the bottle, if the car came to rest at a certain angle and then started to burn, and the bottle was mounted in such a way that the liquid was at the top of the bottle instead of the bottom of the pick up tube and you pulled the cable which energizes the bottle with CO2 gas, how is the fire puter outer stuff going to get pushed to the nozzles and the fire. I hadn't even considered this until I went to the vintage auto races at Fontana, and talked to an older gentleman that had been racing his 1960's Mustang fastback since he drove it off the showroom floor. According to this racer, who is also the tech. director for VARRA, the bottle is to be mounted on the floor board where the passenger seat was, and at a 90 degree angle to the frame rails. Inquireing as to why, I found out that in case of a rollover and the car winds up on its lid the suppression liquid would have a better chance of being delivered to the fire. Granted if off road racing there is not going to be a perfect mounting to cover all the fires all the time. Is there an on board system that is specifically built for offroad vehicles that might end up in the awkward position, or do we settle for using roundy round fire suppression technology and hope for the best in the desert?
Is it possible to drill some holes at the top of the pick up tube, or would that not deliver the volume thats needed to put out a fire? Thasts the only idea I've been able to come up with.
Anyone else got any ideas?

[14802]

Heres a question I've been wondering about since I installed my 3 nozzle system on my 5-16 car. The bottle that holds the fire putter outer liqid has a tube that runs down the center of the bottle, if the car came to rest at a certain angle and then started to burn, and the bottle was mounted in such a way that the liquid was at the top of the bottle instead of the bottom of the pick up tube and you pulled the cable which energizes the bottle with CO2 gas, how is the fire puter outer stuff going to get pushed to the nozzles and the fire. I hadn't even considered this until I went to the vintage auto races at Fontana, and talked to an older gentleman that had been racing his 1960's Mustang fastback since he drove it off the showroom floor. According to this racer, who is also the tech. director for VARRA, the bottle is to be mounted on the floor board where the passenger seat was, and at a 90 degree angle to the frame rails. Inquireing as to why, I found out that in case of a rollover and the car winds up on its lid the suppression liquid would have a better chance of being delivered to the fire. Granted if off road racing there is not going to be a perfect mounting to cover all the fires all the time. Is there an on board system that is specifically built for offroad vehicles that might end up in the awkward position, or do we settle for using roundy round fire suppression technology and hope for the best in the desert?
Is it possible to drill some holes at the top of the pick up tube, or would that not deliver the volume thats needed to put out a fire? Thasts the only idea I've been able to come up with.
Anyone else got any ideas?

You bring up a valid point. If you mount the bottle completly flat(horizontaly), and install a system with a flexable pick-up tube.

Internal flex pick-up hose: "A real racecar fire bottle should be equipped with an internal flex tube. This feature allows our fire systems to pick up all the extinguishant when the bottle is laying flat or straight up. Some fire systems use hand-held off the wall fire extinguishers that have a solid tube inside the fire bottle. If that bottle is installed horizontally, or if the car flips on its side the fire system will only discharge half its load. This makes the Firechargers ideal as off road racing equipment in the advent of a roll over and fuel spill."

http://www.firecharger.com/firecharger-features.html

[43mod]

sealing the passenger compartment as much as possible.my buddy took his imca modified to bonniville(183mph w/a v6) they spent all day in tech sealing every seam before they would pass the car.

[Paul Jacobs]

Whatever you decide on, make sure that the extingusher will be of adequate size. Don't let this be you.

Before


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q83/pjacobs433/MORE1.jpg


After

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q83/pjacobs433/More4.jpg

There was no extingusher available big enough to put this brand new car out,...Ouch!

[NoBrakes Drake]

Extinguishers are only effective on small fires and to allow occupants time to escape. Ever watch a fire department put out a fully engulfed vehicle?

[ndvalium]

Whatever you decide on, make sure that the extingusher will be of adequate size. Don't let this be you.

Before


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q83/pjacobs433/MORE1.jpg


After

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q83/pjacobs433/More4.jpg

There was no extingusher available big enough to put this brand new car out,...Ouch!

What race was this?

[wheezy]

So, whos gonna take it to the next step and draw up a diagram as to HOW to wire in a solution like this.

So there are oil pressure sensors that can activate, or I guess in this case DE-activate a relay that controls the fuel pump(s)?

I'd love to see a real world example of how it's done.

[billymanfroy]

We've been doing this for years and wondered why it's not mandatory. I don't have a drawing for it, but EVERY SINGLE car I've seen burn to the ground could have been saved with this SIMPLE solution. We did it because I'm in a wheelchair and I can't get out fast or by myself. We also built the cage like a NASCAR cage, so easy in-out isn't an option. The overkill cage saved our lives when I wadded the truck end-over-end at 75 mph at Plaster City. The truck hit on the drivers side from about 20 feet up. And we still rolled 3-4 more times after that.

We connected two $5 oil pressure switches to the mechanical oil gauge. They're normally used for dummy lights, and can be found at any Kragen's. One was used to shut off the power to the fuel pump when the oil pressure gets below 10-20 psi. The other was used to shut off the ignition. We even used one on the fuel side to shut off the ignition if we lost fuel pressure. You have to use a momentary to bypass the senders to start the car. I'll come up with a drawing and post it.

Billy

[wheezy]

Cool... I've searched elsewhere and haven't really found anything on this other than conversations about it. No real diagrams to look at.

[billymanfroy]

OK... Here's a simplified version. You COULD use relays and such to make it a "perfect" system, but this is essentially what we've been doing for years with NO failures whatsoever.

The main idea is, if you lose oil pressure, the system automatically shuts down the ignition AND the fuel pump. The fuel is more for being knocked out or loopy when exiting the car so you don't have to remember to shut off the electric fuel pump. Like I said before, this would have saved nearly every car (and unfortunate injury or death from burning) in off-road that I've witnessed. We added the fuel switch on the ignition side to keep from buring down a $15k motor if we lost the fuel pump or ran out of fuel.

You have to push the momentary switch (we used a regular switch mounted right next to the starter button) AND HOLD IT until there is enough oil pressure and fuel pressure to release the bypass and run normally. Takes some getting used to at first, but it is no big deal.

Hope this helps, and stay safe.

Billy

[wheezy]

Awesome... thanks!

[wheezy]

Check this out
http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=16928&cat=&page=1

Found a relay with an extra wire that runs to the coil and senses if the coil is firing. So it works even when starting the vehicle. VERY SLICK

more info here
http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/sfraser/relay.html