spindles

[JOSH]

i need to build a spindle close to the one H&M built for there new ranger lift, What kind of spindle would be good to start with?

thanks
Josh

[Jerry Zaiden]

You need to build it from scratch! Good Luck.

[JOSH]

Thanks Jerry

[JOSH]

do you know how thick my plate should be?

[DougM]

All the engineering has been done already. Why not just buy the spindles available from either Camburg or H&M?

By the time your done, you could have bought their stuff and been driving..

have fun!

[JOSH]

H&M will not sell the spindles alone, i didnt know camburg had spindles like that, ill look into it

[DPpatrol]

1/2 the fun the engineering and building it yourself.

jason

[Kritter]

not to discourage you , but if you are asking how thick the plate should be do you really trust yourself to build something that supports your truck?

Your profile says you are a CADD tech so I assume you have access to some good software. Design it first then run some calcs on the critical areas and you will see if your material selection is adequate. If you plan on doing the "lets just weld some [censored] together and hope it works" I would suggest buying some from a place that has already done that because then it's their ass if they fail.

Kris

"A signature always reveals a man's character -- and sometimes even his name. "

[JOSH]

i should but i'm lazy,why spend the time doing my on r&d when i can just ask, you tell me and i save myself the time. I could draw my own spindle, test it in millions of situations..the whole nine yards, but why when it has already been done?


but on the other hand my whole truck is "lets just weld some [censored] together and hope it works" so i might as well have the spindles to match.

[Kritter]

"I could draw my own spindle, test it in millions of situations..the whole nine yards, but why when it has already been done?"

Why would somebody who did all the work to make a spindle want to reveal anything about their design? Especially when there are only a few makers of quality Ranger spindles.

As for being too lazy to to do the design work...we've all got our own vices I guess.

Kris

"A signature always reveals a man's character -- and sometimes even his name. "

[rdc]

I am assuming if you want those spindles you have an '98+ Ranger. Why not just keep the stock spindles. My brother is using stock ranger spindles on his toyota with a uni ball upper and a Stock Car Products lower ball joint and is getting 20". The spindles are beefy and you would save money and lots of time.

[Kritter]

How wide are your brother's arms and what is the camber change from full droop to full compression?

Kris

"A signature always reveals a man's character -- and sometimes even his name. "

[BradM]

If you're that lazy, maybe you should find a new hobby. Something that doesn't require you to think too much.



"The only source of knowledge is experience." - Albert Einstein

[JOSH]

Wow, I thought this was the board where someone said there is no such thing as a stupid question, But from the look of your replies, this thread is starting to look like one of those on some import street racing chat (senseless [censored] talking)
Granted my reply about being lazy was not too smart.. but how hard would it be for one of you guys to throw a number up in the air??

[AllwaysRcn]

Maybe that is there way of saying " I don't have any idea"?

[FABRICATOR]

.500" minimum, and have someone check the welds...

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>

[JOSH]

I will be sure to do that. Thanks alot

[FABRICATOR]

Josh,
Your questions were OK, although pretty specialized. It's your very lame response later that popped the balloon. A lot of these guys are willing to help out, but you need to show some effort on your part not laziness. You also need to give and get respect before most people will offer any help.

Spindles are a fairly ambitious project and require a lot of thought. Your best off buying them. But if you are determined to make your own, copy some good ones. I doubt anyone will tell you how thick to make them without knowing the design, your capabilities, and now, your determination.

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>

[JOSH]

I apologize for my "lame" response. I respect everyone in here a great deal, especially people like you.

[BradM]

Keep in mind that the material thickness alone doesn't mean anything unless you also specify the material properties, the heat treatment, and all of the dimensions. If you have you have any kind of engineering background then that will make sense to you. If you don't then you really should buy spindles from someone who has done their "homework".

Keep in mind that not everyone engineers their parts. I have seen spindles produced by a well know and respected automotive aftermarket (off-road) company that were made based on rules of thumb and a best guess approach. In one particular case, they had a draftsman draw up the spindle in solidworks and then they ran it through a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) program for stress analysis. The problem is that no one from the company had an engineering background and therefore no one had a complete understanding of the forces acting on the spindle or the associated stresses. When they compared the FEA results with the material yield strength, they assumed that it would work. Long story short.... the prototypes failed on a truck that was street driven. CAD and FEA are neat tools but their results are meaningless if the operator lacks a thorough understanding of the subject area.

If nothing else, start with a simple design sketch. Then draw some free body diagrams and at least do some simple simple stress calculations based on maximum assumed loads in a static condition. Beyond that, you can start to consider combined loads, fatigue, impact loading, and other dynamic effects. If you take a few minutes to do put your equations into a spreadsheet, you can make the inputs variable (including material thickness). It really isn't that hard if you know what you are doing. What you will find is that everything is based on certain assumptions. Your forces acting on the spindle will all be based on assumptions. You should start by determining what forces are acting on the tire in different circumstances. Then consider how those forces are transferred to the hub, through the bearings, and then to the spindle. Don't overlook how the forces in the spindle are transferred through the ball joints to the a-arms. Also consider the braking forces acting on the spindle from the caliper mount.

If you didn't already realize it, your request was not trivial. I don't think you should expect anyone to give you that information for free. If they did, how do you know if it is true or how they determined their data? I have done it for other applications and I know what is involved. I wouldn't make it public knowledge just because you asked. Maybe you should consider an offer to purchase that information and then you can still have the satisfaction of building them for yourself.

[Mikey]

I have the H&M spindles. They are made from 3/4 plate. H&M sold/gave the rights to Camburg and neither produces them
now because Camburg developed a new verticle uniball upper arm/spindle combo. I will probably up grade to that "kit" as soon
as it is in full production. Want to buy my spindles? Lothringer just finished a 7s Ranger with a "tubular" spindle with a heimed rod
end on top and a horizontal uniball on the bottom. 12" of "limited" travel.

[Kritter]

That truck is sweet. 15" with 1 degree of camber change for a 7s A-arm ranger. Kent builds awesome cars, trucks and toys. Pahrump is gonna be a battle.

Kris

"A signature always reveals a man's character -- and sometimes even his name. "

[Dave_G]

Are we talking about spindles or uprights??

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[geoff]

Seems awfully optimistic, but interesting nonetheless.

Mathmatics is the language of nature.

[BradM]

"Are we talking about spindles or uprights??"

Since few people actually make the distinction between the kingpin and the spindle, I was referring to the combination. Good point though, the actual spindle is a turned item and can be made of something like 4340 and heat treated. The kingpin can be designed with a ring at the spindle location. If making it all from plate, I would make a jig to hold the top and bottom "ball joints" or uniballs in the desired location and orientation and then add an indexing point for the ring that will hold the spindle. The final bore of the spindle ring should be cut after heat treat with a press fit to the spindle.

[ntsqd]

"Are we talking about spindles or uprights??"

Dave, I would venture that few outside of the road racing arena know the difference. BradM obviously does.
I've been toying with a SW model at work that is like the Lola T8990 or Elva Mk 7s uprights (the two I'm most familiar with) in that the OD of the bearings press into the upright and the spindle is splined to the wheel flange like your failure example. Just getting the scrub radius to work right (hindering myself with a 0" offset) and still fit a 13" rotor w/o the caliper's outboard face ending up outboard of the WMS is a trick. Mostly it's mental gymnastics although it may get built & end up on an early Camaro.

TS

"Teach you all I know and you're still stupid"
-- Howdy Lee

[Dave_G]

Re: in that the OD of the bearings press into the upright and the spindle is splined to the wheel flange like your failure example.

Ah, what we call in the biz as a "Live Spindle". Actually, a live spindle is a great design. Very strong and light weight. We ran one on the old Enduro Racing stadium truck as I recall. The actual spindle was hollow and made from titanium and the upright was fabricated from 4130 and heat treated. The trick is getting the bearings spaced as far apart as possible to better cary the loads. I personally don't understand why most off road builders don't opt for that kind of design. It's very cheap to manufacture and lighter as compared to a heavy billet upright and spindle.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[BradM]

the "live spindle" is common to many 4WD systems. It has many distinct advantages.

[FABRICATOR]

Hmmm
"I personally don't understand why most off road builders don't opt for that kind of design. It's very cheap to manufacture and lighter as compared to a heavy billet upright and spindle."

This is right on the money. And while it is doing all that, it can be stronger too. The only reason it is not being used much for racing is that very few off-road designers/builders are doing much thinking. And there are ways around the bearing spacing too! I've mentioned here before that the automakers are going more and more to this design regardless of whether the cars are 4WD, FWD, or RWD. It is being applied to 1/2 to over 1 ton trucks also. If people would do some more thinking, they would see a couple more benefits at least as important as the ones mentioned above. More stuff right in front of our noses...

But Dave, it's just the tip of the iceberg...

<font color=orange>The best ideas are the ones that look obvious to the casual observer.</font color=orange>

[DPpatrol]

Please excuse my ignorance, but would someone explain the differance between uprights and spindles. I'm gonna guess that the spindle is the machined part that supports the bearing and hub while the upright is the part that supports the spindle and is attached to the ball joints and tie rods. Am I even remotely close to being right? Also would please explain what a "live spindle" is in greater detail, perhaps provide a diagram if you have the time.

thanks,
jason

[Bob_Sheaves]

To ntsqd...

Something you may want to look at is a late model Honda Accord steering knuckle where the upper ball joint is placed ABOVE the tire to obtain near "0" scrub....not inside the wheel, which, as you found out, restricts the location of the ball joint and the brake packaging.

The LH-body Chryslers also have a similar design. The only problem with this is the criticality of the relationship in stiffness to allow the joints the rigidity to maintain the geometry.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves

Addendum... Also, the "high knuckle design" allows you to reduce the input steering effort by decreasing the kinpin inclination angle, effectively lengthening the upper control arm. If you strain gage the knuckle, you will see that the UCA loading is roughly 1/3 to 1/4 the load on the lower arm, allowing the "thin contour" of the Honda knuckle to be durable.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Bob_Sheaves on 04/05/02 01:57 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

[DPpatrol]

intersting, i always wondered why hondas were designed all goofy like that. Now how do you explain their goofy rear suspension made up of a strut and about 50 different bars going in every direction.

jason

[Dave_G]

We tried to get Randy over at Walkers for years to build fabricated spindles but they just didn't want to go there. Too many problems with welds cracking etc.. or as we were told. The first Baldwin uprights were fabed out of 4130, heat treated, and ran a solid type spindle. They were light weight and beautifully made but the uprights folded like a cheap suit first time out. Since then they have beefed them up and they seem to work ok.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[Dave_G]

Re: Am I even remotely close to being right?

Yes.


Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[BradM]

As Dave said, you are right about the physical description of the spindle and the upright. That type of spindle if usually solid although they can have a hollow center. They are typically used with two tapered roller bearings such that the ID of the bearings rides on the OD of the spindle and the outer bearing races are pressed into the hub. Therfore, the hub rotates around the spindle.

A "live spindle" works the opposite. The "spindle" rotates and essentially becomes the hub. They are commonly used with a dual row opposing tapered roller bearing set such that the hub is pressed into the ID of the bearing and the OD of the beaing is pressed into the upright. Therefore typically increaing the bearing size while reducing the total unsprung weight. This design is common to 4WD and AWD systems because the hub can be hollow with internal splines. As mentioned before, it is often lighter while increasing durability and often load carring capability among other things.

[Dave_G]

Brad,
Excellent job on describing the two types of spindles. On a front live spindle setup we don't set it up so the inner race is a press fit on the spindle. We make them a slip fit for ease of assembly and use a lock nut on the inboard side of the spindle. We also make a custom heat treated spacer to go between the inner races to set the bearing end play. That way you just torque the nut and your done. Much stronger setup that way too.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

[geoff]

The honda rear consists of a rear trailing arm and an upper and lower control arm for the arm. Not exactly what you mean by 50 different bars? Maybe you were looking at a nissan maxima multi-link rear?

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

[DPpatrol]

3 arms, 50 arms, its all the same, but you have to admit honda suspension (for better or worse) is not exactly conventional, but then again neither is honda for that matter. High horsepower, state of the art, normallly aspirated 4 cyl, not exactly conventional, but that's what makes it cool in its own way.

Dave/Brad, thanks for the explanations on live spindles. Do either one of you know of any production cars which use this setup? I'd like to take one apart to see how it all works and goes together.


jason

[BradM]

"Do either one of you know of any production cars which use this setup?"

They are everywhere. Go to a junk yard and look at a late model chevy 4WD truck front end. It is not a new design. It has been used for well over 30 years on many production cars.

[Dylan]

Almost all front wheel drive cars use this design. Also sometimes called a unit bearing. Look at a Tacoma for an IFS example or a new dodge or ford front Dana 50 or 60 for a solid axle example. I think the trailblazer is more or less a copy of the Tacoma and they are both a copy of a Honda front end in regards to the "tall" kingpin.
There is one difficulty with the tall king pin when trying to get a lot of travel. To get the upper and lower a-arm planes to converge to a decent antidive value the upper arm ends up angled way back. This causes a lot of castor change when trying to get more travel. all in all I like the “tall” kingpin

Next topic: A-arms are gay, what about a 5 link front end!!!
I’ll start a thread
Dylan

[Donahoe]

Here is a little Example of a live spindle on a Tundra. The picture is of the new "EDGE SICK AND TWISTED Kits. We are still in the development stage of it but VERY close to driving it. We gave it a 4" lift built into the spindle and it has a true 15" of working wheel travel. Let me know what you guys think.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[Donahoe]

another shot

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[Donahoe]

yet another

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[Tyson]

Looks good, when is that going to be production. I may just have to buy me a Tundra as my tow truck http://www.race-dezert.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Tyson
YOTAPUNK</font color=red> (http://www.geocities.com/yotapunk>)

[JOSH]

LOOKS SICK

[Donahoe]

AND TWISTED

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[JOSH]

KREG, I NEED SOME SPINDLES BUILT FOR A 7 UNLIMITED TRUCK, WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN BUILDING THEM?

[Donahoe]

Sure.. call me...714-632-3033

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[DPpatrol]

Looks very awesome Kreg. Now with the live spindle design, how is the hub and spindle attached to the upright? Does the spindle slide in from the front or back? I'm guesing one end of the spindle is threaded for a retainer nut and the other end is machined so that the inside and butt of the spindle ride on a bearing???

jason

[DPpatrol]

Kreg, is your spindle hollow on the inside or is it gusseted internally?

jason

[Kritter]

Are you using stock brakes?

Kris

"A signature always reveals a man's character -- and sometimes even his name. "

[Donahoe]

The upright does have an internal spine running through the middle. And yes we will be using the stock brakes.. THe whole purpose of this prodject was to make a Nice kit 100% bolt on. The spindle presses into a unit bearing then that bearing has a big snap ring holding the unit in the upright. Its all VERY STRONG STUFF... If you look at the front brakes on a Tundra they are very nice... I would race on them.


NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[Tim]

wow, looks sic........and yes, twisted too!! will this kit also be (or a version) made for the tacoma? tim

[fishd00d]

Hmmm very very nice I just might have to consider getting a Tundra instead of the F-150!

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