The Hog Wild Boys!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?catid=1&blogid=1

Go to this link and read their blog... Wow! what a bummer.

[Hog Wild]

Go to this link and read their blog... Wow! what a bummer.Yes, battered but not broken. We're actually pretty happy with most of our experiences in Dakar. A few more days would have been nice, but we still learned a ton! And other than the strange sprocket problem, the bike was working fantasticly. We'll need a big sponsor to get there again, but that's where our focus is now. Dakar 2007!

One thing that went way beyond our expectations was the crowd and media response to our participation. Though most were a bit skeptical about a Harley in such an event, everyone seemed enthusiastic about it. We got way more media exposure than I would have expected (one TV example (mms://a988.v101995.c10199.e.vm.akamaistream.net/7/988/10199/3f97c7e6/ftvigrp.download.akamai.com/10199/horsgv/regions/siege/sport/dakar/2006/dakar_1_20051229.wmv)). Now that we have a better idea what to expect in this race, and another year to refine the bike, we should be in good shape to take it on again.


http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/001_TeamHogWildRacing_DSC01903_Dakar2006_x800.JPG

http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/002_Sidecar_DSC01905_Dakar2006_x800.jpg

http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/010_Stage1_Dakar_2006_Sidecar_x800.jpg


Oh, and thanks Fly for your excellent blog!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Dude, you are still Nuts!

Glad you liked the Blog, Looking forward to see you and RG next year with a true 100% USA effort! Man and Machine!

Can you race that Hog in the Baja 500?

[McClintock]

You guys rock!!!!! Hope to see you guys racing next year!

[Hog Wild]

Thanks guys for the kind words.

Doing Baja on this bike is probably not a good idea. Whoops really kill us. If we ran our lightweight CR500 sidecar it might be possible, but the Harley with all the big oversize Dakar stuff on it is just too heavy. The passenger gets his *** kicked in the whoops, and there are just too many miles of that in Baja. I went to the Parker 250 the previous 2 years, both times with a different young and fit passenger, and both times they gave up after 2 laps. And that only had like 5 or 10 miles of continuous whoops. Now I have a new more experienced passenger who is even more fit, so we may try Parker 250 next year if we are not at Dakar at that same time. I'm going to beat that Parker race one way or another. But we need more suspension if we are going to do Baja. Sure would be cool to fit some of that TT technology onto our sidecar!

A few vids from 2005 Parker 250:
Powerline Road (http://www.hogwildracing.com/video/Parker250_Powerline.WMV)
Sand Wash (http://www.hogwildracing.com/video/Parker250_sandwash2.WMV)
Fast Road (http://www.hogwildracing.com/video/Parker250_Road.WMV)

[Chase 2]

Sounds like the spring loaded chain tensioner and heat treating the sprockets after welding should fix your sprocket wear problem. You might look into case-hardening the sprocket also prior to heat treating. Really glad you got the bike out of Africa, it would have sucked to have had to leave it there. What was OLN’s problem with interviewing you? They didn’t seem to give you privateers any love.

[Hog Wild]

Sounds like the spring loaded chain tensioner and heat treating the sprockets after welding should fix your sprocket wear problem. You might look into case-hardening the sprocket also prior to heat treating. Really glad you got the bike out of Africa, it would have sucked to have had to leave it there. What was OLN’s problem with interviewing you? They didn’t seem to give you privateers any love.Yes there are good solutions to our sprocket problem. Actually, the newest sprocket we installed in Morocco after the problem is probably just fine. That batch was welded in such a way that the original hardening at the teeth should still be intact. Plus, we fabricated a chain tensioner in the bivouac. So, the bike is actually better now than at the start of the race. Too bad they didn't let us continue!

Regarding OLN not interviewing privateers, there is a big discussion of that subject on another forum. I don't want to speculate on that. We got covered a bit on OLN while some other Americans got NOTHING, so I can't complain too much. When we get further along in the race next year, I'm confident the worldwide media will follow is even closer to see just how far the Harley will go.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I think most of the coverage was "boiler plate" that they use all over the world. Then OLN just narrates it for USA.

We didn't get to real USA coverage until the 1 hour special OLN did at the halfway point.

I did notice both VW and Hummer threw down some $$$ for ad spots.


Steel Sprocket treatment that will never wear out. Triple chrome plate with PVD treatment (Makes chrome 10 times harder). Give me a few of your parts and I will send them out and you can see how it works for your application.
You can do aluminum parts as well.

PM me.

[partybarge_pilot]

You guys are awsome!
But having a BFG on one side and a Michelin on the other kinda like slapping the tire gods in the face?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

You guys are awsome!
But having a BFG on one side and a Michelin on the other kinda like slapping the tire gods in the face?

Yeah he needs some 40" Toyo MTs on that bad boy!

[PBR]

i was just stoked to see you guys on tv... i live right down the street from bartels and it is really cool to see some local guys get international exposure like that...

as far as the interviews go i went through the same thing last year while working on the show... i had a long talk with darren skilton last year about this after the race because he wondered why he didn't get any coverage and what it comes down to is "the man". the guys that make the decisions on who gets interviewed and/or coverage and who doesn't are in a small office in connecticut and all they know is the name "robby gordon". they are trying to get a broader fanbase and robby's name goes much further than jonah street for example (no offense to jonah i am a big fan)... while i worked on the show i did whatever was in my power to get guys like ryan arciero and charlie russo air time but the final decisions come down to people that don't give a crap about the little guy and just want ratings. i was very happy not to work on the show this year because it's hard to take orders from guys that don't know $hit about dezert racing. with that said, i think that it was great to watch a show each day, even if it didn't have the coverage that all of us would have picked. now if they could just get rid of that chick announcing it would be all good (or have her topless).

[FlyHiFlyLo]

now if they could just get rid of that chick announcing it would be all good (or have her topless).


That's a big 10-4 on that! Bolt ons?

[Hog Wild]

…Steel Sprocket treatment that will never wear out. Triple chrome plate with PVD treatment (Makes chrome 10 times harder). Give me a few of your parts and I will send them out and you can see how it works for your application. You can do aluminum parts as well. PM me.I’ll definitely be in touch, thanks!

You guys are awsome! But having a BFG on one side and a Michelin on the other kinda like slapping the tire gods in the face? Yeah he needs some 40" Toyo MTs on that bad boy!I’m using what works and what fits. I have several other tires lying around that didn’t work as well or just don’t fit the tight space. I’m open to new ideas, but if it’s wider than 8” on a 5” rim, it probably won’t fit (front and rear). Our BFG’s are 215/75-R15, and almost rub on both sides. Performance wise they seem fine everywhere we’ve gone so far. But we have not been in the really nasty soft African sand, and I expect that to be our worst nightmare. So, what would be better for that super soft sand? Keep in mind our space limitations!

Current setup, front and rear use same tire and wheel:
http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_002_Sidecar_DSC01911_x600.jpg http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_FrontWheelDone13.jpg
Side is 13" Michelin M4 Rally tire.

Greenway (Colway) “Aligator”, tested well, but not good choice for our front:
http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_Aligator_Tire_69_800.jpg http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_greenway-alligator.jpg

Tire Balls (we use front and side):
http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_TireBalls_013_x640.jpg

More technical stuff HERE (http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/).

OLN...as far as the interviews go i went through the same thing last year while working on the show...Thanks for your great TV insight. Yes, Bartels’ has been very good to us. He’s the only sponsor who gave us money.

…now if they could just get rid of that chick announcing it would be all good (or have her topless).Topless, that may have been too much of a distraction for us!
http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_030_Kristen_Gum_100_0516_Dakar2006_x800.JPG

[PBR]

Bolt ons?


FOR SURE!!!

[partybarge_pilot]

It looks like your right up against the chain on the left but can you go wider on the right hand side? Does the rear tire have to have the same centerline as the front? The rear sure would look nice with a 325/60/15 on it, it's only 2.5" bigger and a whole lot wider.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Topless, that may have been too much of a distraction for us!
http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/thumb_030_Kristen_Gum_100_0516_Dakar2006_x800.JPG

Speaking of hardend chrome.

[Chase 2]

The knobby looks waay too aggressive and with the horsepower you should be putting out with the Harley, I would think that you would be throwing knobs within 20 or 30 miles. From the sound of the Parker video you were getting a lot of wheel spin. Was your monkey (do they still call them monkeys?) shifting his weight over the rear wheel? You could try grooving the BFGs, but again I don’t think you really want real aggressive tread in the soft stuff. Also, I think your using tire balls limits you on being able to air down to gain more buoyancy in the real soft stuff. However, not getting flats is a major advantage of the tire balls. I would have been worried on the long liaisons with the balls heating up & failing.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Are the Side Car Bikes restricted to one wheel drive? Is there a rule against 2 or 3 wheel drive?

[partybarge_pilot]

Are the Side Car Bikes restricted to one wheel drive? Is there a rule against 2 or 3 wheel drive?


Good question! That would be awsome with a hydro drive like the Yamaha's for the side hack wheel.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Good question! That would be awsome with a hydro drive like the Yamaha's for the side hack wheel.

Yeah when he said TT rear end.... I was thinking trailing arms and a diff with CV axles under the monkey's feet. With Hydro front wheel drive.

[Hog Wild]

Ok, now you guys are really digging deep into this thing. Are you sure you want to be associated with the re-engineering of a 3-wheeled off-road vehicle????

It looks like your right up against the chain on the left but can you go wider on the right hand side? Does the rear tire have to have the same centerline as the front? The rear sure would look nice with a 325/60/15 on it, it's only 2.5" bigger and a whole lot wider.Right side of rear tire has ~1/4 inch or less of clearance. No room for bigger tire without new swingarm. Rear tire should be inline with front, but a slight bit of offset would probably be ok. We would also run into a height problem. As it is, the 215/75-15 BFG can just rub under the rear fender when suspension is fully compressed. And, how much do those bigger tires weigh? This thing is already a beast to drive, and worse to drag around in the sand.

The knobby looks waay too aggressive and with the horsepower you should be putting out with the Harley, I would think that you would be throwing knobs within 20 or 30 miles. That knobby was an experiment. We tested it once, and ruled it out because it performed similar to the BFG, but was almost impossible to obtain and would not work well in the front. We would like to have front and rear identical if possible to allow swapping if a flat situation forced it. Plus, as you smartly observed, we also heard that above 55mph on the pavement, the knobs come off this particular tire. But you have to admit, an 8” wide knobby on a dirtbike looks pretty wild!

From the sound of the Parker video you were getting a lot of wheel spin. Was your monkey (do they still call them monkeys?) shifting his weight over the rear wheel? You could try grooving the BFGs, but again I don’t think you really want real aggressive tread in the soft stuff. Great observation. Yes, we had way too much wheel spin at Parker. But at that time we were running the Michelin Rally tires on all three wheels. That tire was great at Pikes Peak Hillclimb, but was not very good off-road, as we learned. It was soon after Parker that we first tested the BFG (a year ago). It was amazing in the dunes compared to the Michelin Rally tire. Study the rear wheel in the 2 year old photo below and let your mind wander. The BFG was way better than that experiment, and WAY less trouble.
http://www.hogwildracing.com/sand_testing_030800/bikeright_030815_13x640.jpg
Some like the term "Monkey" to describe the sidecar passenger. I worked very hard at that job for a lot of years. Anyone who can handle being an off-road sidecar passenger for more than 5 minutes deserves a lot more respectful word than that! It may look "crazy", but mostly it's just plain tough. Duane is one tough guy!

Also, I think your using tire balls limits you on being able to air down to gain more buoyancy in the real soft stuff. However, not getting flats is a major advantage of the tire balls. I would have been worried on the long liaisons with the balls heating up & failing. Yes, yes, yes, but no, yes, no. We have a complicated strategy for dealing with flats. It would take a whole page to describe all our options and workarounds. So, I’ll just explain the Tire Ball thing here. The size of the Tire Balls that we selected is such that they fit pretty loosely in the tire. We run pressure in the balls as well as in the tire (not the normal thing to do). When we get to the dunes, we can let ALL the pressure out of the tire, and run only on the balls. Because the balls are a bit small, the tire flattens out quite a bit, but not completely flat. It seems just about perfect for the sand (we are still learning though). We carry a miniature electric air pump on the bike, and use it to air back up upon leaving the dunes. We don’t really care about the time lost in doing this because our goal is just to get to the finish, not place well with our time. On the long liaisons we don’t have a problem with heat because we only run the Tire Balls in the front and side. Through earlier testing we found that in our particular setup, at 100mph, on the highway, in Death Valley, in mid-summer 110 degrees, the balls didn’t survive in the rear (photo below). We now use flat-proof goop in the rear (Gemplers), and carry tire plugs and a tube just in case. The Tire Balls work great in the front and side.
http://www.hogwildracing.com/misc/MexicoTireProblem2005-0285x640.jpg

Are the Side Car Bikes restricted to one wheel drive? Is there a rule against 2 or 3 wheel drive?No, several Dakar sidecars over the years have tried various 2WD systems. None have been successful as far as I know. I’ve studied the Yamaha hydro system, and am not satisfied it will hold up longer than one day of Dakar on a sidecar. Trust me, I’m keeping an eye on that system. With more money and time, I might give it a test. Anyone have spare money and time? BTW, with our current setup we’ve never been stuck in the sand more than 5 minutes. Believe me we’ve tried a lot, at Dumont Dunes and Altar in Mexico. We’re looking towards Dakar 2007 to greatly extend our “stuck in the sand” experiences!

Keep the ideas flowing!

[Chase 2]

WOW a snow chain with paddles! Kind of like the hill climb guys. Holy cr@p, I would really hate to have one of those get lose and wrap around the swing arm taking everything out in the process. Using car tires, I would have used the cable type instead of chain, but still all that Harley horsepower and steel cable/chain whipping around. So you are using the Tire Balls like a inner/outer deal? Tire balls are Scott Summer & his dad right?

No insult intended with the term Monkey, I did a couple of Hare & Hounds and a Grand Prix as a Monkey back in the 70’s. The bike was a Rickman Westlake BSA (single cylinder 500cc) with (I think it was) a Wasp sidecar. I had a blast but it sure trashed me!

[Hog Wild]

Ok Chase, who's been telling you about all our development secrets?

Using car tires, I would have used the cable type instead of chain, but still all that Harley horsepower and steel cable/chain whipping around. Been there, done that. The standard snow-chain technique doesn't work because there's no room on the sides of the tire for the cables or chains because of the drive chain and swingarm. But we did try cables. They lasted about 5 minutes, then shredded, kinked, and broke (before and after):
http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/SandPaddleAluminum1.jpg http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/Sand%20Paddle%20Aluminum%20Broke2x640.jpg

Then we tried chains:
http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/Sand%20Paddle%20Steel%20Mounted%203%20x400.jpg http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/SandPaddleSteel_1x640.jpg
Once we got the bugs worked out, the chain version actually worked pretty well. Ohhhh what a roost (http://www.hogwildracing.com/sand_testing_030800/roost2_030815_25.jpg) that thing throws!

Holy cr@p, I would really hate to have one of those get lose and wrap around the swing arm taking everything out in the process. Me too!
http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/BrokeCases_PDRM0002x640.jpg
http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/dirty_broken_shifter.jpg

So you are using the Tire Balls like a inner/outer deal? Tire balls are Scott Summer & his dad right?Tire Balls are Wade Summers deal (Scott's dad). www.TireBalls.com (http://www.TireBalls.com) Wade has been real helpful in working with us on our odd application.


No insult intended with the term Monkey, I did a couple of Hare & Hounds and a Grand Prix as a Monkey back in the 70’s. The bike was a Rickman Westlake BSA (single cylinder 500cc) with (I think it was) a Wasp sidecar. I had a blast but it sure trashed me! No offence taken. That term will never die! Cool that you tried passengering a few times, and back when there was only 4 inches of suspension! I may have been on the same track at the same time in one of those races. For sure my dad was there. More vintage sidecars on my other web site (see menu Photos>Vintage) on SidecarCross.com (http://www.sidecarcross.com/).

[Chase 2]

OMG!!! My side hurts from laughing so hard. And the reason I'm laughing is because 20 years ago I would have done the same thing! You are damn lucky it didn't take your foot in the process! You guys are sicker than I ever imagined!

Four inches in the front and two in the rear! The GP was OCMC's Great Bear GP at Riverside.

[Hog Wild]

The GP was OCMC's Great Bear GP at Riverside.Oh the horrors of that race!

http://www.sidecarcross.com/photo/crash/mud_riverside.jpg

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Just like every other thread and response on this board.

"You should have done this or that" Blaa Blaa Blaa

Show us your V-Rod side car Boyz?

LOL

You guys are Crazy because YOU have tried many many different angles to the Side car. This, long before we even thought a side car from the US could even show up at Dakar. A HD no less!

We are fresh out of the gate! Bare with us.

I guess 2 or 3 wheel drive is legal? ... Cool!

[pphat]

Scott, you guys are my new heroes. And not just 'cause the idea of taking a Hog to Dakar is so twisted even my wife is fascinated w/ it. Just unbelievable cool to see you guys going for it!

[Chase 2]

Fly, I strongly suggest a little background reading at the site Scott provided: Sidecarcross.com.

[Hog Wild]

Thanks all for the encouraging and supportive comments in this thread.

Just like every other thread and response on this board. "You should have done this or that" Blaa Blaa Blaa You guys are among the friendliest and most insightful on the net. You should see some of the comments I found about us in some other places. It’s pretty funny!

You guys are Crazy because YOU have tried many many different angles to the Side car. This, long before we even thought a side car from the US could even show up at Dakar. A HD no less! We are fresh out of the gate! Bare with us.
I only tried all these crazy things because I didn’t know any better. I’m not really well connected into the off-road fabrication world, and don’t know much of what’s out there technology wise. So, I’m listening to everything you all point out. As I said before, I only have very limited time and money, so future mods are somewhat limited. But I’m sure there are plenty of things I could do to the bike to improve it, within my limitations.

Yes, I believe 2WD or 3WD is allowed in Dakar (for sidecars). But before you go too far down that road, consider the weight, complication, reliability of such ideas, and wether we even would benifit from that.

For those who are interested, we have tons of details about our bike development and Dakar preparations, on our Hog Wild News and related web pages:
> Hog Wild News: Dakar - Latest News (http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?catid=1&blogid=1)
> Hog Wild News: Dakar - Old News (http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?catid=4&blogid=1) (great stuff in here)
> Home Page (http://www.hogwildracing.com/)
> Technical Details (http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/)

Yes, SidecarCross.com (http://www.SidecarCross.com/) does provide a view into where off-road sidecar technology lives. That world is where I spent most of my past years of racing. And it's where this Dakar sidecar evolved from. Did you know there are 5 or more manufacturers of motocross sidecar frames, and two manufacturers who make monster 650cc and 700cc 2-stroke motors specifically for that sport. Wild stuff that people here don't know about.

------------------------------------------
Havin' a little fun with the Dakar crowd in Portugal:
http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/010_JoaoPulquerio_RoostTheCrowd.jpg

[CharlieIII]

That's a great picture of you guys spraying/roosting a little of your hog love to the Portuguese crowd.

[CharlieIII]

Oh yea, one more thing, where's the RDC sticker at?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Fly, I strongly suggest a little background reading at the site Scott provided: Sidecarcross.com.

Yes they do have a lot of cool stuff on there.

My point was... It's easy for us to say this and that after all the work Scott did.

I also found these guys when I was doing a link search for the blog.

http://www.sidecardakar.ch/2006/englisch/frame.htm

But they aren't American so who cares! LOL

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Scott, what's the math behind the front end that side cars run? Rather than the telescopic front ends.

[FullsizeFun]

conventional forks dont work on a hack. they are not rigid enough and chatter and deflect too much. forks are also meant for a bike that leans in the turns, hacks stay straight up and down for the most part. the Leading Link front end just works better and steers better.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

conventional forks dont work on a hack. they are not rigid enough and chatter and deflect too much. forks are also meant for a bike that leans in the turns, hacks stay straight up and down for the most part. the Leading Link front end just works better and steers better.

Oh it's about the leaning..Thanks!

[Chase 2]

Just like every other thread and response on this board.

"You should have done this or that" Blaa Blaa Blaa



I believe that Scott was picking our minds, and looking for comments as to how we might have done things differently. He seems to be one of the most committed off-road sidecar racers I’ve seen in a long long time and should be praised for the research and development he has done on his own. If you think that in some way we are bashing or criticizing him you are way off base.

We are fresh out of the gate! Bare with us.

Dude, some of us have been around leading link suspensions for over 35 years.

The leading link front suspension (also known as the Earles or Springer suspension) is one of the oldest motorcycle front suspensions. Many of the early two stroke motocross bikes (such as Greeves, Cotton, DOT, Sachs/DKW) came with this type of fork. In the late 60’s, early 70’s some desert guys would even replace their telescoping forks with aftermarket Springer front ends. Leading link was also a common front end on many of the early Honda street bikes. The biggest drawback was of course the weight. A simple explanation of leading link forks can be found here:

http://www.sidestrider.com/leadingfork.html


Oh it's about the leaning..Thanks! The advantage with leading link on sidecars has to do with trail.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I believe that Scott was picking our minds, and looking for comments as to how we might have done things differently. He seems to be one of the most committed off-road sidecar racers I’ve seen in a long long time and should be praised for the research and development he has done on his own. If you think that in some way we are bashing or criticizing him you are way off base.



Dude, some of us have been around leading link suspensions for over 35 years.

The leading link front suspension (also known as the Earles or Springer suspension) is one of the oldest motorcycle front suspensions. Many of the early two stroke motocross bikes (such as Greeves, Cotton, DOT, Sachs/DKW) came with this type of fork. In the late 60’s, early 70’s some desert guys would even replace their telescoping forks with aftermarket Springer front ends. Leading link was also a common front end on many of the early Honda street bikes. The biggest drawback was of course the weight. A simple explanation of leading link forks can be found here:

http://www.sidestrider.com/leadingfork.html


The advantage with leading link on sidecars has to do with trail.


Relax dude.

[Chase 2]

Relax dude.

Sorry. I can't relax, I had too much coffee this morning, and I'm excited about going to supercross in an hour or so!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Sorry. I can't relax, I had too much coffee this morning, and I'm excited about going to supercross in an hour or so!

Drive safe and have fun.

[Hog Wild]

Ok, you guys settle down. We're all friends. The way I see it, everyone has been respectful and helpful. Sometimes we are learning, and sometimes teaching. It's all fun.

Thanks Dave for your input. Few people know sidecars AND modern off-road technologies. It seems two of you are here already. And Fly is coming along well.

Yes, I'm interested in suggestions that will put us in a better position for Dakar next year. The top 10 priorities are all the same, GET A SPONSOR. But this forum is probably not the place for that, so here we can look at the next set of priorities. Those are mostly bike related. I'll listen to all suggestions, but can only implement a few things that fit our tight budget, time schedule, and technical abilities.

Here's a challenge: point me to a 15" tire (maybe 16" if all else is ok) that fits our 8" section width limit (on 5" wide rim), that will perform better in the sand than our 215/75-15 BFG Mud Terrains. If there is something similar, but maybe with 9" to 9.5" section width on 5" or 6" rim, I can consider building a wider rear swingarm to fit it. Terrain wise, my only concern is the really soft African sand. Maybe we can put on some super sand tire just on the tough sand days, and run our current setup everywhere else. Any other suggestions?

p.s. RDC sticker goes on as soon as I get one, and the bike returns from Morocco.

[DUMP!]

Hey Guys,

What are the rule limitations (If any) on your rig? Is the Frame, Suspension etc. open, or are there limits as to what you can do? Are you familure (SP?) with a bike called the Britten V1000? It has a great front suspension that I think could adapt well to your application. It is refered to as a girder type front suspension that uses double wishbones and a single shock / spring set up. Could be just as strong but much lighter and the best part is that it would reduce the unsprung wieght of the front end. Just a thought, What are you looking to improve on the bike for next year??? How much travel does the outfit wheel have? What type of design is the outfit suspension??

Dump

[mgobaja]

You guys are awsome!
But having a BFG on one side and a Michelin on the other kinda like slapping the tire gods in the face?

I think Michelin is the parent company of BFG ( at least the tire side )Because I used to recall in the early 90's BFG materials sometimes had MARC labeled on them, Michelin America Research Company or something to that effect.

[Hog Wild]

Hey Guys, What are the rule limitations (If any) on your rig? Is the Frame, Suspension etc. open, or are there limits as to what you can do? Are you familure (SP?) with a bike called the Britten V1000? It has a great front suspension that I think could adapt well to your application. It is refered to as a girder type front suspension that uses double wishbones and a single shock / spring set up. Could be just as strong but much lighter and the best part is that it would reduce the unsprung wieght of the front end. Just a thought, What are you looking to improve on the bike for next year??? How much travel does the outfit wheel have? What type of design is the outfit suspension?? DumpThanks Dump for your comments and suggestions. Yes, I'm slightly familiar with the Britten bike (technological wonder). There are few rules on the sidecars. The ASO rules for sidecars in Dakar are almost non-existent. But they refer to the FIM rules for Enduro sidecars, which are somewhat detailed. As far as I can recall, there are NO rules regarding suspension, and few on chassis configuration, other than overall width, front/rear wheel tracking, etc. I guess we could have 40” of travel if we wanted. But I can assure you, no matter how good the suspension worked, I’m not riding one of these over 3ft whoops at speeds that TT’s go! I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I believe we have suspension travel in this ballpark: 9” front, 8” rear, 7” side. The sidecar uses a simple swingarm not unlike a single-sided rear might have. But it’s only about 11” long, from the pivot to the axle, with the shock about half way along, and a pivoting linkage (“L” shaped piece) to add progression. See photo below for some details. For almost all thoughts of significant suspension mods, I’ll refer you to my previous statements; “no time, no money”. Plus I’ll reiterate, we already have a lot of experimentation going on with this bike. I’m trying to reduce technology risks, keep it simple, go with what has already been proven, and don’t fix it if it ain’t broke. If we had a team of free helpers building stuff for us, and helping pay for it, we could consider more extensive mods. In fact it would be really cool to have some expert Buggy/TT fabricators start from scratch building a sidecar for the desert using all the latest technology and knowledge, but I haven’t met them yet. So, sorry to say, we have to keep our mods to the absolute minimum. A miracle rear tire for the dunes, that fits our current setup, that’s what I need!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Okay, 10 minutes of my time. LOL

[Chase 2]

Fly & I tend to go back & forth rather vigorously at times, I’ll try to contain my responses.

My experience with paddle tires on bikes tells me that with your horsepower, the tire would be toast if you had to ride any hard terrain even at short distances. I know that swing arm width is an issue but, what about a removable paddle system that attaches via the bead locks on the rim? Instead of two cables wrapping around the circumference of tire, use three or four individual cable mounted paddles that attach from the bead lock on one side of the wheel crossing over width-wise to the bead lock on the other side. But then, again keeping things much simpler, perhaps a bit of creative/aggressive tire grooving on your existing tread patterns could help and be less problematic.

Now as far as sponsors are concerned, if we had the solution to that problem, we would all have our own Trophy Truck teams!! I think the one big advantage you have is that you are not competing against other hacks for sponsors. The energy drink makers seem to like those of you who look rather extreme in you endeavors.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Fly & I tend to go back & forth rather vigorously at times, I’ll try to contain my responses.

My experience with paddle tires on bikes tells me that with your horsepower, the tire would be toast if you had to ride any hard terrain even at short distances. I know that swing arm width is an issue but, what about a removable paddle system that attaches via the bead locks on the rim? Instead of two cables wrapping around the circumference of tire, use three or four individual cable mounted paddles that attach from the bead lock on one side of the wheel crossing over width-wise to the bead lock on the other side. But then, again keeping things much simpler, perhaps a bit of creative/aggressive tire grooving on your existing tread patterns could help and be less problematic.

Now as far as sponsors are concerned, if we had the solution to that problem, we would all have our own Trophy Truck teams!! I think the one big advantage you have is that you are not competing against other hacks for sponsors. The energy drink makers seem to like those of you who look rather extreme in you endeavors.


Chase do you remember the Dick Cepek 29x14.5x15 Radial FC? That would be an awesome tire with a single sided swing arm (front and rear). He would never get stuck.

Might need some ram assist.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Mickey Thompson Baja Belted 29x11.5-15LT. Would work great too. I think a Mickey Thompson Tire would be better on a Hog than a French tire too.

[Hog Wild]

Okay, 10 minutes of my time. LOLPretty amazing CAD for 10 minutes!

My experience with paddle tires on bikes tells me that with your horsepower, the tire would be toast if you had to ride any hard terrain even at short distances. I know that swing arm width is an issue but, what about a removable paddle system that attaches via the bead locks on the rim? Instead of two cables wrapping around the circumference of tire, use three or four individual cable mounted paddles that attach from the bead lock on one side of the wheel crossing over width-wise to the bead lock on the other side. But then, again keeping things much simpler, perhaps a bit of creative/aggressive tire grooving on your existing tread patterns could help and be less problematic.1) The latest version of our steel paddle system worked really well as it was. Even on hard-pack the ride was amazingly smooth. Didn't see any strange tire wear in the testing we did.
2) There is no room on the side of the tire to wrap anything around to attach to the beadlock bolts.
3) Detailed study of the rules finds that ANY type of paddle or paddle tire is not allowed in Dakar or most other FIM affiliated racing.
4) As soon as we tested the BFG Mud Terrain, the paddle was out. The BFG was WAY better, and far less trouble!
So, unless we get into sand drags or something, there's no need for the paddle. Though it might make for an interesting sex toy (http://www.hogwildracing.com/technical/paddle/SandPaddleSteel_1x640.jpg)!


Now as far as sponsors are concerned, if we had the solution to that problem, we would all have our own Trophy Truck teams!! I think the one big advantage you have is that you are not competing against other hacks for sponsors. The energy drink makers seem to like those of you who look rather extreme in you endeavors. Some of you DO own your own big-time team! But I'd be dumb not to point out our incredibly valuable large panel areas, worth millions to the right sponsor, given our proven worldwide exposure! Ha ha! I've already been ignored by Redbull as far back as 2003. But it did occur to me that if we took this crazy machine to Santa Monica and rode it through the Redbull main office front door, they might take notice! It's street legal, and that place is just 5 minutes ride from our favorite sponsor Bartels! What do you think?

TIRES:
I'm really trying to figure out how to fit a 10" or 11" tire on the rear without major fabrication work. As a minimum, I would need to build a new rear swingarm. But until the bike comes back from Dakar (hopefully by end of March), I can't do any measuring to see what the possibilities are. What do the car guys run in Dakar for the sand?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Here is 15 minutes more. LOL

Chek out this tire. 26x11.50

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Isn't it a beotch to steer those things with positive caster?

[partybarge_pilot]

Fly, Nice except now the chain is on the wrong side! Or you have something better in mind?

Hogg, if you decide to take the direct marketing aproach with Redbull let us know so we can get it on tape!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Or you have something better in mind?

something way better.

F-ing chain put him out this year.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Thanks Barge..... Now I have 40 minutes into this mess.

Sealed system. LOL

[partybarge_pilot]

How about one of these mounted at an angle under the Monkey to drive both wheels? Next you need a shaft drive motor...... Which parallels a project I'm currently working on........

[partybarge_pilot]

Opps, a little slow. Haha. Found the swingarm and rear drive......
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-GOLDWING-GL1800-GL-1800-SWINGARM-SWING-ARM-zk_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35595QQitemZ45810107 86QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-GOLDWING-GL1800-FINAL-DRIVE-REAR-END-LOW-MILES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35600QQitemZ46062 62159QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Opps, a little slow. Haha. Found the swingarm and rear drive......
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-GOLDWING-GL1800-GL-1800-SWINGARM-SWING-ARM-zk_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35595QQitemZ45810107 86QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-GOLDWING-GL1800-FINAL-DRIVE-REAR-END-LOW-MILES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35600QQitemZ46062 62159QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Yeah it sucks when you waste 40 minutes on something already done. Ha Ha

[partybarge_pilot]

I was saying I was a little slow. I like the gear reduction on the jackshaft. If you turn the motor sideways you could eliminate 1 set of bevel gears plus it might make your package a little shorter. The bikes package I mean......

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I was saying I was a little slow. I like the gear reduction on the jackshaft. If you turn the motor sideways you could eliminate 1 set of bevel gears plus it might make your package a little shorter. The bikes package I mean......


You noticed the gear reduction...I don't know how touchy HD guys would get if you turned their V-twin sideways. I wonder if the Trans were over on the side car side it could be a strait shot from the Trans to the CV axle with no chain, Good call.

I wonder what the engine torque would do though?

[partybarge_pilot]

Torque can't be that bad, look at Beemrs and gold wings. Now we need to find a front swingarm with a steering knuckle to get FWD.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Torque can't be that bad, look at Beemrs and gold wings. Now we need to find a front swingarm with a steering knuckle to get FWD.



LOL

Poor Scott, he is going to get all flubber clustered.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Torque can't be that bad, look at Beemrs and gold wings. Now we need to find a front swingarm with a steering knuckle to get FWD.


A knuckle off a 79-85 Toyota 4x would work great. It would be awesome seeing a Warn Premium locking hub on the open side of the front wheel. That way you could switch to 4wd when you get to the sand. I bet it would be way fast coming out of turns.

[DUMP!]

Hey Scott,

Maybe you've already covered this but, why the switch from the TL to the V-Rod.

Also, how does the sidecar suspension hold up? It looks kind of fragial, or at least kind of flexy.

Dump

[Hog Wild]

Isn't it a beotch to steer those things with positive caster?Normally no problem. There's a steering damper that keeps it steady. But on my Dakar sidecar you would not believe what it takes to hold this thing in a sharp 180 turn. The problem in my case is because of the wide front tire. When we turn sharp, the tire actually tilts a bit, making it ride on the inside edge of the tread. While standing still, if we turn the bars, you can actually see the front of the bike rise up a bit because of this edge of the tire thing. This all means my arms are lifting the bike in every sharp turn. Pushing the bars full turn, and holding them there for a few seconds in a tight corner is unbelievably difficult. If we were doing sharp turns for 6000 miles of Dakar, I would run a skinny front tire, rounded like a motorcycle tire, so this wouldn't happen. But the advantage of a wide tire in the sand, and the commonality with the rear, outweigh the sharp corner thing in a long "straight" race like Dakar. That's my thinking anyway. Others have different opinions.


LOL Poor Scott, he is going to get all flubber clustered.Call me when this CAD thing is done, the fab is done, and you need a driver. Of course the designer has to hang on as passenger!


Hey Scott, Maybe you've already covered this but, why the switch from the TL to the V-Rod. Answer is here:
http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?itemid=6
Also, the only reason the media is so interested in us is because it’s a Harley! If it works great, and it attracts a lot of attention, who could ask for more?

There are tons of answers to many questions if you read enough here (see bottom articles first, and move up, in chronological order):
http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/


Also, how does the sidecar suspension hold up? It looks kind of fragial, or at least kind of flexy.Sidecar swingarm and whole suspension hold up well. Never broke anything there. It's simple, adjustable, and proven on THOUSANDS of motocross sidecars worldwide. Camber and toe-in adjust via cam bolt at pivot. Ride height is adjustable via rod with threaded heims (not visible in earlier photo). If linkage breaks, I can mount shock directly to swingarm for reduced performance, but works fine for limping in to bivouac.

[Hog Wild]

Today I completed my story covering our Dakar Stage 1 experience. See it here, with photos that go with the story:
http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?itemid=37
I hope to complete Stage 2, plus pre-race and escape from Morocco stories in the next few days.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Call me when this CAD thing is done, the fab is done, and you need a driver. Of course the designer has to hang on as passenger!


LOL..... that was my earlier point when I said;


Just like every other thread and response on this board.

"You should have done this or that" Blaa Blaa Blaa

Show us your V-Rod side car Boyz?

LOL

You guys are Crazy because YOU have tried many many different angles to the Side car. This, long before we even thought a side car from the US could even show up at Dakar. A HD no less!

We are fresh out of the gate! Bare with us.

I guess 2 or 3 wheel drive is legal? ... Cool!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

By the Way Scott. You don't want a 6 foot 5, 300lb monkey. I'm an engineer and for some reason the math just doesn't calc out. I wouldn't want 8"x1/2" I-beam construction for the side car. Ha Ha!

[partybarge_pilot]

Yeah, but think of the wieght transfer in the corners!

[Hog Wild]

By the Way Scott. You don't want a 6 foot 5, 300lb monkey. I'm an engineer and for some reason the math just doesn't calc out. I wouldn't want 8"x1/2" I-beam construction for the side car. Ha Ha!Oh come on, when it comes to sidecars, anything goes:

http://www.torpedo-emscher.de/wr/union/rakete/img/sc_piano2_m.jpg

http://www.torpedo-emscher.de/wr/union/rakete/img/sc_cow.jpg

http://www.torpedo-emscher.de/wr/union/rakete/img/sc_3lb.jpg

Moonlight Racing:
http://www.sidecarcross.com/forum/my_photos/moonlight_racing.jpg

My engine is a dog!
http://www.sidecarcross.com/msg/photos/7478_MyEngineIsADog.jpg

Secret remote practice area:
http://www.hogwildracing.com/misc/mars_rover_sidecar.jpg

http://www.hogwildracing.com/misc/shuttle747piggybackride.jpg

http://www.hogwildracing.com/misc/ParkerWithKids1254x640.jpg

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Oh come on, when it comes to sidecars, anything goes:

http://www.torpedo-emscher.de/wr/union/rakete/img/sc_piano2_m.jpg




COOL! Can I bring my Thong too!

[Mark Newhan]

Put this stuff on Public Access T.V., I haven't laughed this hard in a while. OLN should do a special! A couple of you guys need a hobby! Have you tried "frolf" LOL!

[Hog Wild]

OLN should do a special!Don't laugh, OLN (actually a contracted outside production company) already produced a 10 minute intro video to help OLN decide if their idea is worthy of a TV series. A few details here:
http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?itemid=24
Of course none of those goofy sidecar photos above will be included! Sorry, we are not allowed to share the 10 minute video, but I can assure you it would be a real hit for everyone in this forum. Below are some stills from the initial shooting (note the t-shirt for a hint of others considered for this TV series). The series would be centered around competitors preparing for Dakar, particularly the privateers. No word yet on if the idea will go forward.

http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/DuaneInterviewScreamingFlea193.jpg

http://hogwildracing.com/blog/media/1/CharlieInterviewScreamingFlea175.jpg

[Mark Newhan]

You guy's, the hog wild team' deserve the attention. I think that American companies have a growing interest in beating the European teams at their game. The Euro's have come to Baja for years to compete. We are the original off roaders, dating back to the pioneers in the covered wagons, crossing the Rocky Mountains.

Best of luck!

Mark Newhan

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Don't laugh, OLN (actually a contracted outside production company) already produced a 10 minute intro video to help OLN decide if their idea is worthy of a TV series. A few details here:
http://www.hogwildracing.com/blog/index.php?itemid=24
Of course none of those goofy sidecar photos above will be included! Sorry, we are not allowed to share the 10 minute video, but I can assure you it would be a real hit for everyone in this forum. Below are some stills from the initial shooting (note the t-shirt for a hint of others considered for this TV series). The series would be centered around competitors preparing for Dakar, particularly the privateers. No word yet on if the idea will go forward.



So If I give them a free t-shirt do you think they will give me a pilot show?

[Hog Wild]

So If I give them a free t-shirt do you think they will give me a pilot show?If the shirt is stuffed with cash, I'm sure they'll be a bit more open to the idea. Or build a completely crazy off-road machine, and take it to Dakar!

More photos from Dumont/Death Valley for TV shoot: