class 9 rule changes [Archive]

Kenny_Thatcher

December 20th, 2001, 06:18

I am trying to get some of the rules change for class9 for the 2002 seasons
these rules will affect every organization what I need from you the drivers is
mailing adresses so I can send out a balot for you to vote on the changes to be
made, These are the main rules I am trying to get changed based on input from other
drivers; the use of kartek style rear hubs instead ov drums, the use of aluminum or
magniesium wheels to replace the steel ones, and finaly dropping of the claimer rule.
if you have a rule you would like to have changed let me know so we can make it happen
please e-mail me or call me I would like to hear from everyone
phone# 702-645-9270 e-mail: katracing32@aol.com or tgr.mavericksworld.com

thanks your class 9 rep

mike_hinson

December 20th, 2001, 08:01

Kenny,
If you can't get the claimer rule eliminated, get it set to about $2000. I am currently building my engine and it is going to cost over $250 just for maching of the case. That doesn't include balancing or lightening the flywheel. After I add the cost of the rest of the parts, as you know, it's going to be expensive.

We need to get the engine sheetmetal rules set a little less strict, so we can trim and also use after market fan shrouds, etc.

The aftermarket Kartek rear drums are expensive, but will last much longer than the stock ones. It would be nice to not have to worry about them breaking.

I can go either way on the rims.

My .04 cents
Mike

jcarius

December 20th, 2001, 08:04

Kenny - Thanks for taking on the class rep job. I'll send you an email with the addresses for my fiance and I.

I'd like to see some open discussion about the rule changes before ballotting occurs, especialy since this will as you say probably affect a variety of racing organizations.

Some background and thoughts:

We're both driving class 9 with VORRA, and this year, with SNORE. Last year, we finally got the resources to put together a race program instead of just crewing for other folks. So though I can't say we've been racing nine cars forever, I've been doing the desert racing thing in one way or another for 25 years (more or less) so I feel like I've got a leg to stand on with my thoughts, so here goes:

Jim's Principles of entry level racing rules:

1) Change as few rules as possible
2) Change the rules to make it cheaper or safer to race
3) Change the rules to make it less likely the rules will be broken undetected

Seems to me that nine cars are extremely limited to provide two things: a drivers class and a way into off-road racing for those of "modest means". There are already less limited classes for those who want to run more technologically advanced cars, and other limited classes for those who want to go faster and still have it be a "drivers class". The unique thing about class 9 is for about $8K including car, safety equipment, and pit supplies an ordinary joe can get in the game.

From what I can tell, none of the three rule changes you mentioned make it any cheaper or safer. The dropping of the engine claiming rule should be thoroughly discussed - hell, I'm not even sure I know where I stand on it. Seems to me like there are good arguments on both sides.

Thanks for listening.

Jim and Vanessa

TimHayosh

December 20th, 2001, 09:00

Sorry to pipe in here, but...
I gotta agree with Jim.

I like the idea about the engine tin.
The Kartek hubs are not in the "Spirit of the Class".
The engine claimer thing is ok in principal, but socially very unacceptable (and too cheap).

Instead of doing away with the claim rule, what about a manditory head cc for the top 2-3? Yes it's a ton of work after a race. But, with that displacement checking tube that is used (P&G?) compression ratio is not checked. I didn't know that until very recently. How many other people didn't know that? The compression ratio is single most effective way to make an engine "faster".

Cheaters=loosers. Maybe not loosers on the track, just in life.

Sorry to bust in here, but this stuff is still important to me.

Let the conversation continue!

Tim

mike_hinson

December 20th, 2001, 09:37

Kenny,
I'm have to go along with Tim and Jim. I think some serious discussion needs to take place. The costs associated with changing some rules might be too much for a lot of 9 teams to overcome. That means that some teams would not be competitive due to not being able to keep up with the cost of rules changes.
Mike

Kenny_Thatcher

December 20th, 2001, 17:52

Ok you guys and girls I've got your attention these 3 items I mentioned
where brought up to me buy drivers like you. I have been racing in class 9
for 7 years now and I have4 to tell you the spirit of class 9 has changed
drasticly and so has the cost. I want to give you an explaination for each
of the rules that I have mentioned
first: the kartek style rear hubs; yes I know they mite be more expensive than
a drum but only at first those hubs run about 200$ bucks verses a drum at a 100$
they are alot stronger than regular drums and they will last alot longer 1600 cars get
a full season plus out of them, drums be it type 3s or thing only last about three
races and thats if you take good care of them I know that in the last 2 years
I have spent over 800$ on drums I lost 3 of them do to spinning the splines and
the other 5 do to cracks, the hubs are also lighter than drums giving you less
weight at the wheel plus less rotating mass (easier on the trans), plus you will have
better brakes

second: get rid of the steel wheels, centerlines or ultras weigh less. less rotating mass
less unsprung weight at the wheels (easier on the trans and suspention)
steel wheels are about 50$plus bucks now, centerlines and ultras are about 100$
but you can have centerlines straightened for about 40$ if you mess one up
also steel wheels make are cars look like antiques

finaly: the claimer either get rid of it or raise it to 2000$

this is what I need you feed back for and if you would like to have some other rule changed

Thanks

mike_hinson

December 21st, 2001, 07:57

Kenny,
Thanks for the cost data associated with your proposed rule changes. Your explanation goes a long way in helping the rest of us sort this out. I am currently building a 9 car and value the knowledge that comes from your many years racing 9 cars. Now we need to get the rest of the 9 community involved in this. Can you post this on the go-desert board and have them come to this forum? Might be a good way to get everyones opinion.

As for the proposed rule changes:
Stock drums vs. Kartek hubs- I can use my new Thing drums until they crack and then either buy the Kartek setup or additional Thing units. Does the use of the new setup provide a competitive advantage? I would like to hear from you and others.

Alum vs steel wheels- Again, I can use up my steel and then purchase what I want if the rule is changed. Does the use of the aluminum wheels provide a competitive advantage? This may due to the decrease in unsprung weight. What do other 9 drivers think? Cost vs. durability?

Claimer rule- I think the claimer rule is OK and within the spirit of the class, but the amount needs to be reasonable. I build my own engines, so the cost for me is in the parts and machine work. For someone that has their engine built by a professional engine builder, what is the cost? These two factors need to be taken into account.

Sheetmetal rule: I think it needs to be loosened up. I don't believe trimming or the use of aftermarket sheetmetal provides a competitive or cost advantage. What do other 9 drivers think?

Mik Hinson

Kenny_Thatcher

December 22nd, 2001, 21:07

does 2000$ sound reasonable for a claimer also I need adresses
from all class 9 drivers

so far rules that have been brought to my attention
some people would like changed

1) The claimer rule keep it,drop it or raise it
2)The use of centerline or ultra style wheels
3)The use of 16" wheels
4)Modifications or the use of aftermarket engine tins
5)The use of kartek style hubs in the place of drums
6)Power steering
7)The use of a second shock in the rear
8)The use of after market spindel snouts (such as Fodrils) heat treated with no speedo holes
and aditional gusseting of the spindel if the snouts are alowed to be changed
9)The use of external and internal bypass shocks

Thanks

Protech975

December 22nd, 2001, 22:54

Kenny
Congrats again on a great finish at the B.o.B. race! We tried to catch you guys but you and Walters were just really hooked up prefect!

As for the rule change ideas I have always thought that change is almost always a good thing for the sport, It keeps things new,exciting and challenging. so long as the changes stay within the basic concept or spirit of the class.

Regarding the Hubs verses Drums idea I think it would be just fine to stay with current rule so long as we are able to get good used or aftermarket drums. We have been using early 5-lug Bus drums for over 4 years and in that time we have only gone through 3 sets. and not one of them broke or cracked. Only bent one in a rollover. We can get 6 to 8 races per set then change them for saftey sake. They cost me about $60 a set then $30 for machining. and we are not easy on them by a long shot.

Wheels other than steel would wind up costing to much for most teams to absorb. I agree with the weight concepts but other than that no real advantage. I would like to possibly consider the idea of a wider rim being allowed, possibly 7 or 8 in. that would allow for a wider range of rear tires that could be used effectivly.

Claimer Rule - Never liked it never will and would like to see it eliminated! It's based on a negative reaction instead of a positive pro-action and no good ever came out of an engine being claimed. If not eliminated then at least a $2000 tag.

Engine Tin should be allowed to be anything we can get our hands on. This is one of those rules that does not in anyway offer any advantage or not. So let go Chrome or alluminum.

Just a note to you all. I posted my car for sale on the RD and F-9 web sites and in 24 hours got 4 Emails and sold it 2 days later. I will still he supporting the class 9 racers this year and will possibly be getting a new car next year either 9 or 1600. Rob S. #975

TimHayosh

December 23rd, 2001, 05:37

Ken, it would be really easy to accomplish the rules changes you have proposed! Just change the number 9 to a 16 on the car and it's all legal!

TimHayosh

December 23rd, 2001, 09:28

This was written 1.5 years ago. It was written on the only website specific to Class 9. In that time, no has ever refuted what it means.....

The cars and drivers of this class are unique from any other class in off-road racing. The class 9 car is highly restricted from any sort of radical modifications. It is this restriction that keeps the costs down. You can spend more than $15,000 if you want, but for under $8,000 you can usually find one in decent condition on a trailer.

Because the cars are so limited, the class is really about the driver. Some current Class 9 drivers have been in Class 9 for over 10 years. Others listed here have done well in just their first year. Class 9 is a great place to realize the dream that is off-road racing.

Kenny_Thatcher

December 23rd, 2001, 12:02

Tim I dont think you understand my last post all I am doing is making public what other drivers want
I never said I agree with them all but there are a few I would like to see changed some of wich
will be more cost effective in the long run Trust me when I say this because out of every
class 9 racer I have ever met I have the smallest budget for racing in class 9 so the rules that
I am interested in changing are those of wich will make parts last longer

Protech975

December 23rd, 2001, 12:26

Tim I agree with your last two posts, If all the changes or ideas were to be adopted then what would the end product be! "A 100' wheelbase 1600" If you can afford to build this mythic car then it's probably time to move up to the next step! What next class 9/1600 or 950s.
Kenny please don't think we are comeing down on you personaly, I think your wanting to keep up on some of the more nonsence rules of the class are great. Keep up the good work. Just keep in mind that every year there are new drivers just startng out in Class 9 like the guy I sold my car too, and they need to be able to be as competitive as everyone one else based on the limits and budget of the class. If not they may go fishing instead. R.S.

TimHayosh

December 23rd, 2001, 13:30

Thanks for clarifying that Ken.

None-the-less, in my opinion some of those idea's will just blur the line between 9 and 1600. I didn't see too many that made things cheaper (power steering, aluminum wheels, multiple shocks, etc.).

I believe Class 9 has survived because of it's restrictions, not in spite of them. Basically, I think of class 9 as class 11 but without the pan and body. It should be damn near stock.

I can fully appreciate someone's desire to drive faster. One of the reasons I sold my car was to get into a faster class. Everyone wants to go faster. We're racers! But, we have to balance our desire to go faster with what is good for the class. If the "buy-in" to get a reasonable car was $10k or more, I would not be racing. When I spent the $7800 to get mine, I had to beg, borrow, and (almost) steal to raise the money. Fact is, you can get a car for $5000 if you're willing to do some work. It may not look like it on paper, but there is a VAST difference between $10k and $5k.

So, to "improve" class 9 cars, two things happen:
1.) The difference between Class 9 and 1/2-1600 grows smaller and smaller (not good for the sport).
2.) The car becomes more expensive; thus fewer people getting started) not good for the sport).

In my opinion the only appropriate changes are those which cost nothing (cylinder tin) and those which make the car safer. It's fun to think of "...if I could just xxxx..." But in the end, you end up with a 1600 car.

What's my opinion worth? Nothing. It's just my opinion. Lot's of great drivers have come from this class and it would be a shame to see it harmed.

BTW: If you want to make everyone spend the same amount of their motors, drop the claimer rule and replace it with : The winner trades motors with the 3rd place guy (or some other position). If you know you're gonna give it up, you're not gonna have $4000 in it.

My $0.06

Kenny_Thatcher

December 23rd, 2001, 17:58

Hey Tim thanks for yor opinion but what makes the diffrence between 9 and 16
is 3 things balljoint frontend, swing axle rear, and a 100" wheelbase
the rules that I am interested in are the ones that will save me money
but as a class rep I have to pay attention to every driver out there and their suggestions
we have to face the facts alot of the parts we use are used when we get them. These
parts are sarting to run short in supply therefore driving the costs up

rdc

December 26th, 2001, 11:43

ken here's my .02 cents

1) engine claimer: drop it no good has ever come from this rule just check the winners and DQ all cheaters.
2) wheels: ken have you weighed steel vs alum. i have some centerlines i use as spares and they are heavier than my steel wheels. btw i still run my origional steel wheels i started with some 12 years ago any joe can weld them. (meaning they are very cheap too run)
3) 16" wheels: not necessary but i'm not against it. it's good for some but some cars can't handle a larger tire they'll rub the front end
4) engine tin: a rediculious rule, tin doesn't make more power just like chrome
5) drums: again don't care, i don't believe there is any advantage to running kartex drums, i have over 15 races on my drums ( type 3 ) but they are german (very hard to find) aftermarket only last a few races so i wouldn't object to kartex drums if you feel your saving money.
6) power steering: would be a luxury can't have that in a 9
7) 2nd shock: we all know what shocks cost, too expensive (remember keep it simple). the right shock setup works very well i see no reason to change this rule i even disagree with resevors on 9 cars the guys that have them aren't going any faster, and they are still rebuilding after a few races, whats the point?
8) spindles: mixed feelings about this one, only time i have ever broken spindles has been when i didn't magna-flux them before a race, (btw i use the hole in my spindle for a speedo) but why not let someone build stock spindles out of better metal.

keep up the good work ken

Rick Poole

jcarius

December 26th, 2001, 15:53

Folks,

I'm glad to see the discussion on these ... My thoughts on the nine issues Kenny has aggregated are below, but I'd like to ask about another. Is there any reason that we don't allow original VW link pin front beams? The ball joints are universally (so it seems) a source of expense, would a link pin front end using stock trailing arms and spindels be any better?

Otherwise:

1) We absolutely should do something. I like Tim's idea about cc'ing the winners engine - but Tim - are you sure that gives you the compression ratio? What about deck height .... Whatever it is we need to try and make sure that folks are following the rules .. what does SCORE do with 1/2-1600s? I believe they have the exact same engine requirements.

2) I know everyone hates the way the wheels look. I say keep 'em standard. We're out racing, not at a car show. If we allow alloy wheels, it becomes a budget thing.

3) If we allow 16" wheels, then we end up needing to have multiple wheels for different race set ups. I'm not sure what we gain as a class by changing ...

4) You bet. Makes sense to me - use whatever tin you want, as long as you use a stock generator/alternator in the stock location.

5) You know, there are cars out there running type I drums and winning races, especially on some of the short courses. These are _cheap_. If there is no performace advantage to the kartek drums,and they work with stock brake shoes (still required), let's make 'em legal. If they do perform better than stock (perhaps in heat transfer?) than I'd say give it a pass. Let's face it, one of the challanges of the 9 car is not only going fast, but balancing speed and breakage. Anyone can pin the throttle - it's knowing when when to let up that's sometimes hard.

6) Can't see it. The big question I'd as is why?

7) Sort like 6, and then look at Jim's rules posted previously

8) I'd need to see the cost/benefit analysis. Also, one of the things that keeps 9 reasonable is that a normal, reasonably savvy guy can do most of the work (well, except the transaxle). Welding in new spindles and sending them to be heat treated? Sounds like someone else does that == $$. Also, once again - as in (5), not driving the car pat it's abilities is part of the game.

9) My ignorance is showing here .... what's an internal bypass shock?

Thanks again for listening,

Jim & Vanessa

Protech975

December 27th, 2001, 09:50

9 - World
After speaking to a few other drivers off-line and getting some feedback, the discussion was brought up as to the possibility of adopting the use of IRS. and what the pro and cons would be?
Without a doubt the weakest link in our type of cars is the Trans. If we went to an IRS setup but stayed with stock configs on all arms and CV's and Torsion set up. What do you think?
These are not my ideas just some more ideas for discussion by 9 people without computer access.
As I see it the cost of an IRS Trans should not exceed that of an swing-axle and should not have to be torn down near as often. A Top of the line S.A. Race Trans will cost most of us between $1500 and $2500 and then $100 to $500 per race up keep. Have never built or prepped an IRS so do not have costs to relate to yet, If you have some $ figures let us know. R.S. #975

mike_hinson

December 27th, 2001, 11:22

Rob,
Other items to consider:
Aftermarket or stock stubs axles?
Type 1 or 930 CV's
Stock or aftermarket axles?
Stock or aftermarket arms?
Stock CV bolts and flanges or aftermarket?
Type 2 or Type 1 gearbox?
Super diffs and 4 spider gears?
Close ratio 3rd & 4th?
Welded trans cases?
The list goes on and so does the cost!

These proposed changes modify the total concept of the class. As one who is building a new car and has just purchased a new trans, axles, spring plates, etc., this change will cause major changes/modification in my car and more importantly, my budget. Here again, we are getting closer to a 1600 car. All we need to do is add the link pin front end.

If these proposed changes are being requested to allow the cars to go faster without breaking, then I think it violates the spirit of the class. It seems to me that the original intent of the class was to drive the car as fast as possible without over stressing the stock equipment. Several veteran drivers have posted the same comment on this forum as well as go-desert.com. The cars have run faster and faster avg speeds over the last few years. Obviously, things are going to break the faster you go.

Maybe the spirit of the class needs to be re-defined/changed, or maybe the spirit of the class is OK as it is. It all depends on the consensus of the Class participants. I just don't want it to become to expensive to even build a car. Everyone says you can go out and buy a car for $5K. I know you can't build one for that amount. You might as well build a 1600. With all of this proposed equipment changes, I'm sure the $5K figure for a used car will also go up. I know without a doubt that a swingaxle 9 car would not be competitive with an IRS 9 car. Upgrades would be necessary for a driver to stay competitive. My .02 cents and I am enjoying the dialog between all the 9 owners. Keep it up.
Mike Hinson

TimHayosh

December 27th, 2001, 11:53

Jim said: "I like Tim's idea about cc'ing the winners engine - but Tim - are you sure that gives you the compression ratio? What about deck height ..."

Jim, here's what I said:"...what about a manditory head cc for the top 2-3? Yes it's a ton of work after a race. But, with that displacement checking tube that is used (P&G?) compression ratio is not checked. I didn't know that until very recently. How many other people didn't know that? The compression ratio is single most effective way to make an engine "faster".

Deck height is easy to determine with the head removed. A straight edge and depth gauge are all that is required. Do a little math, and you've got it. The "engine" cc's can be determined with that big tube hooked up to a spark plug hole. But the head cc's is a different story. This is the easiest place to make more hp since it can't be checked without removing the head.

I think "sadrace" has a pretty good idea. Drop the claimer rule and tech the piss out of the motor.

Cheaters suck.

kurt

December 27th, 2001, 23:30

This debate as to rules changes is also raging on the "Go Desert" site. It would be great to see them over here discussing the ideas without having to deal with the 9 car bashers chiming in!

mike_hinson

December 28th, 2001, 06:54

Kurt,
Post your message on go-desert.com. Maybe they will come over here. Kenny has been posting over here as you have seen, but because they don't have to leave their real names, the 9 bashers are having a heyday. I'm just glad to see the dialog taking place, even if we have to look past the junk being posted about our class. I appreciate Kenny taking this on.
Mike

950

December 28th, 2001, 12:19

Lets just go racing ! The rules are fine as is.

Protech975

December 29th, 2001, 11:32

Just took a look at the Go-Desert forum on this issue and what a nightmare! This discussion needs to remain in this site and on this Board. Its ours to use so lets stay clear of all the negative %$*&#$@! and get some positive work done by 9 people who care about the issue and not just the last word garbage elsewhere.
Seems like there are two issues that need to be addressed here now!

1st. Is it time to redefine the basic concepts,ideas,philosophy of the Class 9 cars given todays race Technology versus 25 years ago when the class began? If the answer is yes then we have a clean slate to redefine the class from the ground up.

2nd. If a major redefinition of the class is not needed then what changes need to be made, Major, Minor, Cost effective, logical, eliminate nonsence rules, or just keep them as they are right now? R.S.

950

December 29th, 2001, 14:26

The last thing this class needs is more rule changes. It always adds more money & speed to the class. The more trick stuff you allow the more you will need.When this class first started you had to run type 1 drums,stock gears,no resivors,& allowed to make weight wet.The more we allow the more they will want to have. If you dont like the rules find a new class. Dont mess with the most affordable class we have.

mike_hinson

December 31st, 2001, 08:37

Kenny,
This was posted on go-desert.com: (Rule changes) "Needs to be done 6 months in advance of season." Have you gotten any word on the six month requirement?
Mike

Kenny_Thatcher

December 31st, 2001, 16:44

as far as snore and mdr are congerned it dosent matter if its what the drivers want
also I have spoken to Bill Savage of score and he told me to fax him what I have on the subject and he
would see what he could do

BeanerBoy

March 23rd, 2007, 12:50

Just bringing up a dead topic thats 5 or 6 years old!!!! Anyone have any new ideas or does everyone feel the cars are good the way they are??? I don't really like the idea of changing rules but as other classes evolve (1600=$40,000?) maybe this class should as well??? The class seems to be growing again in MORE and SNORE so lets get some input from todays racers!!!!

Ryan Schank

March 23rd, 2007, 13:25

Change nothing. If you want a change move up in class.

BeanerBoy

March 23rd, 2007, 13:50

Ryan I believe this was directed at people that RACE class 9, and a few racers have been asking me!!! I don't have a problem with the class just listening to others!!!

Haney motorsports

March 23rd, 2007, 16:37

Holy cow Torres! I believe everyone has a voice and they should be heard even if they don't currently race in 9. I will be the 2nd to say rule changes are not needed and I don't currently race in 9 (hopefully soon my sons will). Unless there is some sort of major safety issue... Keep it the SAME.

Psycho 910

March 23rd, 2007, 17:53

This is something that sould of been brougt up long time ago.I agree with leaving the class alone (ie) ball joints,one shock per corner,drum brakes.......ect.But the rule we all need to push is the transmissions.We all are driving way to hard for just a stock type 1 ring and pinion.It would be a lot cheaper if the trans was open and you could run any ratio 1st and 2nd you want,and say for the ring and pinion we can run a 388 in sted of a 412 or 437.I dont know about every one else but I have to change my ring and pinion every race and with a 388 it would last a not longer and you have a lot more options with that ring gear.Just think,a stronger 1st gear for those big silt holes.

BeanerBoy

March 23rd, 2007, 19:30

Chris, this should be open to the ones that race the class because they are the ones that know what issues are out there that could be fixed to make this class more affordable. Rick's post is a very good example of ways to make the class cheaper to run. My trans is rebuilt every race and more is paid in labor than parts. There is a shock tower issue, fan shroud issue and engine tin issues, why not get rid of that bs stuff so petty a person doesn't come along and protest something that doesn't even make the cars faster?? (It has happend in the past) Let's get a pole going out of 18 cars that started the Balls Out 250 what problems did you guys have??

I broke a trans!!!!

randomracer

March 23rd, 2007, 20:35

i dont race class 9 anymore but did in the past. i agree with changes that dont really change the class, like trans internals and fan shroud, tins ect. but much more then that i dont see it as a good thing.i dont see you guys running any harder or faster then anyone has in the past . thats part of the class is to be able to run fast but not break IMO.

Johnson954

March 23rd, 2007, 20:55

I'm with Rick....9 car trannies suck! Just a few changes could save tons of money over the course of a season. I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of the old CORR light buggy rules with ours. I know there are going to be those die-hard nine car nuts that say if you want IRS and link pin, go to 1600, but the classes worked pretty well in CORR, and class 16 is getting way too far out of reach for budget racers. Maybe it would be a new class, something like the champ class in SNORE, only based off a class 9 wheel base.

If nothing else, I think changes to the tranny to make it stronger as a swing axle are necessary, the motor claimer needs to be a thing of the past, and I think we should be able to run 16" aluminum wheels. Just those few changes would make our class over all eaiser to run, and more affordable in the long run.

Psycho 910

March 23rd, 2007, 22:06

I forgot to add that, you can run any ring and pinion and gear ratios as long as it is a SWINGAXLE.

point b racing

March 23rd, 2007, 22:13

the only problem i have is i lose 2nd gear everyonce in awhile...so i would suggest new tranny rules...but on the other hand thats part of racing...and i like the challenge trying to finish....so i have no say either way

BeanerBoy

March 23rd, 2007, 22:31

Jared next week is going to be a hard one to keep these cars together for!! Hows the 11 car looking?

doug969

March 23rd, 2007, 23:28

BUDMAN975

March 24th, 2007, 00:10

Corey I too broke a tranny, also a hole in an oil line. the oil line was my fault but I think you are right. by the way Doug you write like william shakespeare, pure GENIUS

point b racing

March 24th, 2007, 02:38

Jared next week is going to be a hard one to keep these cars together for!! Hows the 11 car looking?

yea it should be fun

the 11 car is looking good!!! made a few more improvments should be some tuff competition...
if your gonna be out their we will have all 3 cars running...the 1600 car is finally done too

doug969

March 24th, 2007, 10:02

Jared makes sure you go easy on poor Corey.

racer951

March 24th, 2007, 11:55

My thoughts...Not only has 1600 stepped up but so have others. Class 9 will always be 100'' wb, non power-steering, swing axle's. No one is arguing that. We don't need big changes, but a few smart ones. We need changes that will make the cars more reliable, slightly faster, and not much more expensive. I think all of these would increase competition due to increased finishing rates.

-Open up the trannys. How much is open to discussion. Of course still swing axle.
-Aluminum Wheels. Used centerlines are a dime a dozen. Not a huge advantage, either.
-Fan shroud. Should have never been a rule in the first place.
-33'' tires. Have they changed this already?

Also to think about:

-Ditch the claimer rule
-9 to 1 compression
-Aluminum drums (a lot of used ones around as well)
-Something to make front end more reliable. Keep ball joints, but change ?

racer951

March 24th, 2007, 13:27

Also...lock rules in for 3 years, then review.

PEST

March 25th, 2007, 18:07

The only thing that needs to be changed is the trans. Somebody that knows a few things about transmissions chime in and give a price difference on the changes. I've been told that 2nd on the main is a good place to start, because most people do it anyways

racer951

March 25th, 2007, 20:30

People run 33's and some also run aftermarket tin also.

I agree though, the trans issue needs a discussion on what exactly to change and I'm no expert there either.

doug969

March 25th, 2007, 21:39

I agree with you guys on the trans,engine tin,beam rules. It would help grow the class and keep some in the class. I dont have a 9 right now but i'm working on it if anyone knows of a chassis for sale.

RAK 915

March 26th, 2007, 08:57

I agree that the transaxle rules should be opened up. I say any R&P, any gear ratios for 1st and 2nd, any main shaft, as long as it stays swingaxle. I think the engine should remain at 7 1/2 to 1 because it's economical and they last a whole season or more and we don't need to got faster, because if we do, then people will want by-pass shocks. I just want a transaxle that could go 2 or 3 races with only fluid changes instead of a R&P every race. If you want an IRS link pin car you can run champ in SNORE.

ffrank

March 26th, 2007, 09:25

200MPHTape

March 26th, 2007, 09:38

No, don't change nothing! I just set sail. But if any thing were to be changed, it should be the trans. VW stamped box, internals open!

ACME

March 26th, 2007, 10:26

I'm in the same boat as Worm, not a current 9 guy but looking, again... I think a few changes that would make the class better are, open the tranny's, any type 1 tin, and blow off the claimer rule. The aluminum hat issue is interesting but drums can still be found, other wise keep it the same...

Scrapiron

March 26th, 2007, 11:04

It sounds like everyone agree's that the tin and tranny rules should be updated. So what is the next step, call Bill Savage?

racer951

March 26th, 2007, 13:13

I also would like the trans ratios opened up. The current engine tin rule is crazy, All it does is keep the engines looking like non-racecars. More compression would mean expensive fuel and motors would have to be rebuilt more often. The only rule I would love to see change but never will is power steering, Being an old wimpy man I would surely like to give up a few horsepower to be able to hang on. I also thought that you might get more old-dads back into 9 with it. Class 9 is a fun class and Ill race until it isnt.

Frank with 9 to 1 you can still run pump gas and I don't think much reliability will be lost.

What about creating a ballot to be voted on at the next few races or MORE/SNORE. I believe SCORE followed the lead on Power steering for 5/16's, why not on our rules?

PEST

March 26th, 2007, 14:43

It sounds like everyone agree's that the tin and tranny rules should be updated. So what is the next step, call Bill Savage?
Why call Savage?, everybody that runs 9 races MORE and SNORE.

[QUOTE=racer951;267931]Frank with 9 to 1 you can still run pump gas and I don't think much reliability will be lost.
Why change the compression my motor works just fine.

racer951

March 26th, 2007, 14:50

randomracer

March 26th, 2007, 16:47

Nathan,

Just an idea to get a little more speed/power for not a lot of money. The 1600 guys run 13.5 to 1! I think for a change like that you could phase it in for 2009 (which would give 18 months) since a lot of teams only prep their motors one a year, etc.

I think that allowing another year is a good idea for any rule change where people would have to swap out parts they don't normally service often.

I know SNORE has thought about the tranny issue before...I say we take it to these 2 promoters and have a straight up vote.

i think runing that much cr you have to rebuild top end alot more and your making more power which brakes the tranny and hard on all other parts, not to mention you spend more on fuel. i think just internal upgrades on the trannys would be the only change that should be made IMO

doug969

March 26th, 2007, 16:51

i think runing that much cr you have to rebuild top end alot more and your making more power which brakes the tranny and hard on all other parts, not to mention you spend more on fuel. i think just internal upgrades on the trannys would be the only change that should be made IMO

I agree 100% with you! The cylinder tin/shroud items also need to be changed.

randomracer

March 26th, 2007, 20:01

I agree 100% with you! The cylinder tin/shroud items also need to be changed.

yes the tin also sorry i missed that.there is no advangtage i can think of in changing the tin from one style to the next.

doug969

March 26th, 2007, 20:42

yes the tin also sorry i missed that.there is no advangtage i can think of in changing the tin from one style to the next.

I think when they came up with the rules they new it wouldnt gain power but rather keep it stock looking to help draw more cars because of the "low Cost" builds.

randomracer

March 26th, 2007, 20:53

I think when they came up with the rules they new it wouldnt gain power but rather keep it stock looking to help draw more cars because of the "low Cost" builds.

the way i look at it there probally no better fan shroud then a stock german one , vw put who knows how much money to make sure they worked and there built sturdy, as far as the cylinder tin goes there not much difference. IMO, i agree with you.

doug969

March 26th, 2007, 21:59

ACME

March 27th, 2007, 12:16

Bumping the compression will lead to more cost and more wear/tear. The dual ports make enough power as they are and they're still reliable. Ask a 16 motor owner, he'll tell you it requires a lot more attention and costs significantly more to maintain plus you're doing top ends all the time. Not to mention at even 9:1 you be on the bubble for using race fuel which is another major cost/pain. These cars are plenty fast for 100' swing axles, opening the tranny rules makes sense from a cost perspective and the cooling tin thing is a no-brainer. Making changes for the sake of change doesn't make sense, making a change to keep the cars inexpensive to run makes a lot of sense...

Scrapiron

March 27th, 2007, 12:26

BeanerBoy

March 27th, 2007, 13:49

Thanks everyone for your input, hopefully we can can get something going to get these issues fixed for the 08 season.. I will talk to Brandon Hughes and see if I can get him to post on here. I know he had alot of signatures last year for some rule changes in SNORE(the only change SNORE allowed was the claimer rule was raised to $2500). We just need to get MORE, SNORE, MDR and CODE on the same page.

PEST

March 27th, 2007, 16:25

Last year they tried too much stuff. This year try trans, shroud, and cylinder tin. Also include what the costs will be to upgrade the trans. Many of the people I talked to last year didn't understand what was proposed to upgrade the trans and voted NO( I was one of them).

Lifeflight

March 27th, 2007, 17:20

Man, all these rule ideas are almost too insane. The guys who just bought a $6,500 FAT motor defenetly doesn't want it bought for a grand. We lost our motor to poncho bio at the goldcoast 300 once. Who cares. The better idea i heard out of SNORE was if you buy a winners motor, you give the winner yours. End of subject there. Pump gas only. IE 91 octane. 7 1/2 compression. Stock tin. What is the exact reason everyone wants to trim their tin? Is it because high compression motor tins don't fit or what. Claimer rule needs to stay intact so no trick rods or other super light internals make there way into our motors. That a no brainer. Rich Minga tried to get Mike Leon DQed at the 86 baja 1,000 for tin but score said go away. Alluminum rims? Come on- $250 times 12? If a rule was ever needed it would be an open swing axle rule. But you can buy an aftermarket main-shaft with a stock 2nd gear that won't break. So i would go either way on that one. How about adding weight to the single seat cars. Make them run 1,650 pounds as we all know you can almost in no way build a two seater 1,350 pounds. Mines light at 1,480 pounds dry. That rule alone would help the two seaters become a bit more competitive against the single seaters. STOCK DRUMS. My front drums have been on our car for almost 20 years. The rears last a few races until they bend. No alluminum center drums. Go tell the racers south of the border that they need to spend another X amount of dollors to race in the states. Remember, those guys barely make $200. a week. Not a DAY..... Our front ends are just fine. Ask Anyone who knows, a stock ball-joint front is stronger than a l.p. front. Thats way VW invented the b-j- front. Stock shrouds are best. If anyone wants irs, go champ car at snore or sportsman anywhere else. Even though i call myself semi retired, its not that my 20 year old jimco is outdated, i just need more cash. If i had to go out and buy all the items listed in the first posted threds, i and most of the others would just disapear completley from the sport we love.
POWER STEERING? Go race a different class.
Most of you out there don't know the first rule change done to our class after the 86' Mint 400 Anyone Anyone? Spindle gussets. after that, in 89-90, the first set of rules changes. Open VW drums, Duall master cylanders, close ratio 3rd and 4th. 5 years later we got resevoirs then bigger shafts.

Johnson954

March 29th, 2007, 21:09

Hey guys,

I talked to Joel Mohr and he gave me some prices on running a 3.88 ring and pinion with an aftermarket mainshaft.

Mainshaft set = $600
3.88 Ring and Pinion = $150
Lowered 3rd and 4th = $170 each

New tranny built from scratch about $2,000 + tax

BeanerBoy

March 29th, 2007, 23:11

Did he happen to say what this could save us in the long run??

Johnson954

March 30th, 2007, 01:37

No, all he said is that it would still be a weak link. To me the greatest gain is going to be the better 1st and 2nd gear. We've broken 2nd gear 2X's now. I've gotten 2 races out of my trannies before, so I would think it would go for sure for 2, possibly for 3. That means, if you start out the season on a fresh tranny, you could make it on 2 rebuilds, for a six race season...as appose to 5. Depending on how much you pay for a rebuild, that could be a huge savings. I believe Joel charges $350 for a rebuild soo...

Rebuild X 6 = $ 2100
R & P X 6 = $ 900
Total = $ 3000

or

Rebuild X 3 = $1050
R & P X 3 = $450
Mainshaft set = $600
3rd & 4th = $340
Total = $2440

...time saved not pulling the tranny every race = priceless.

The next year you should even have more savings, because the parts cost hopefully would not be there....just depends on how much faster we drive now that the tranny is stronger!

Johnson954

March 30th, 2007, 01:56

I'm all for these changes:

1) open tranny up
2) engine claimer rule at $2500
3) any tin on the motor
4) 16" aluminum wheels
5) single seat weight = 1650 lbs minimum
two seat weight = 1450 lbs minimum

I would like to see everyone else post their requests...maybe we could get a list going that could be voted on in a few races.

ffrank

March 30th, 2007, 07:32

200lb diff? what? how bout more like 150lbs.

Johnson954

March 30th, 2007, 08:37

randomracer

March 30th, 2007, 18:57

i dont see a point in raising the weight on both cars? i still say open tranny and get rid of rules like the tin and raise claimer or just do away with it..

200MPHTape

March 30th, 2007, 19:16

200lb diff? what? how bout more like 150lbs.

ffrank, are you saying you weigh 150lbs and the average weight of a co-driver is 150lbs?
Or am I missing something?

Johnson954

March 30th, 2007, 21:12

I see what you are saying now Frank...you would like to see it be something like 1450 for 2-seat and 1600 for single. That makes sense. My beautiful co-driver only weighs 102 lbs., so that leaves a little fudge factor for myself!!!

Lifeflight

April 2nd, 2007, 14:46

ENGINE CLAIM
I think some racers are missing the reason for an engine claim rule. IT's a COST thing. It keeps people from paying for trick parts knowing it won't be bought. Keep the claim rule. Even say just $1,500.00. But add to the rule " buyer must release own engine to winner." This will help all concerned. I would exchange my motor if i was doing just that "EXCHANGING". AS i said before, our motor was bought by PONCHO BIO at the GOLD COAST 300. So i know first hand.
Anyways, why do some of you wan't this rule eliminated? What parts are you guys runnin? Maybe somebody is scared someone else will figure out your cam specs. Plus why is everyone want the engine tin rule eliminated? We all know it doesn't mean anything, so why not just leave the tin alone?

ABOUT WEIGHT.
1450 two seat 1650 single seat. DRY! Some two seat racers have a 105 pound lady, most others have a 200 plus pound sponsor or mechanic. Most drivers weigh at least 180 pounds. We ALL KNOW THERE IS ABSOLUTLEY MORE TUBING IN A TWO SEAT CAR. No matter what. So to tell someone to build a two seater lighter then a light weight 1 seater is realy a moot point. I know a T-Mag single seat car that looks just like most of these new little single seat cars out there right now runs about 75 pounds under without lead. This is just an example of weight differences, not saying anyone out there is light.

SWING AXLES.
Anything goes in the box rule. Even though you can buy and run an aftermarket stock main shaft with a 2nd that won't break. Run stock drums, no alluminum centers. Plus the alluminum adds about an inch of track width. Mybe thats the real secret reason. Or does someone have a 1600 buddy with a stack of drums he can't use because he had to update to micro stubs & disks.
Trannies will still break no matter what. Racers will still tear parts up no matter how much we spend.

RIMS
Keep our rims steel. at 5" max. alluminum rims could easily kill the concept of the class. Unless you have a rich buddy who races 1600 and sells you his one race used rims for a 6 pack of beer each. Otherwise you will change the entry level concept of the class. As Bill Savage said about by-pass tubes. "Adds too much to the cost of the class". We should be thankfull he let us have resevoirs.

If i could afford to race a faster class, i would probably do so. But To add more expensive parts to a budget class tells me some racers should step up to a faster class.

racer951

April 9th, 2007, 21:54

Did I say it wrong...right now it is at 1350 and 1550 right? So that would only be 100lbs difference. I don't think you could build a safe 2 seat car for 1350lbs, especially with the new rules on chassis.

2 things...

Starting mid-season, Torres will be winning with a 2-seater instead of 1, a la Rob Mac.

At about the same time another 2-seater will be done and should be well under the proposed 1450 weight with working doors! I should be racing it this summer...

200MPHTape

April 9th, 2007, 22:40

Pics?

ACME

April 10th, 2007, 10:07

Pinky II??? Glad to hear your coming back out of the closet, EH!

racer951

April 10th, 2007, 18:22

Hmm, might be able to get a few pics - I didnt snap any when I was there.

Pinky II might be the name but its not my car!

ACME

April 11th, 2007, 11:07

You a hired gun now Pinky? As Cheater's PR person: He will not be running a 2 seater mid season!, or will he??? He is also not the father of Anna's kid...

racer951

April 11th, 2007, 15:24

Well I don't pay any of the bills but I think that means lucky - not hired. It's a family thing.

What's up with the 10 car?

ACME

April 11th, 2007, 18:47

I had irreconcilable differences with a rear arm and the wifes 11 blew a CV then a rear shock. Not one of our better days... I should just get another 9 car...

racer951

April 12th, 2007, 05:53

Come on out and play old man...I'd love to put a dent in your bumper! You can rig up the special steering system and we run fewer miles anyways. Doug should get back in a 9 too...could be an ACME top 5 sweep !?!

9Iron

April 18th, 2007, 20:36

the way i look at it there probally no better fan shroud then a stock german one , vw put who knows how much money to make sure they worked and there built sturdy, as far as the cylinder tin goes there not much difference. IMO, i agree with you.

True, and leave the flaps on, wired to an all open position for max cooling effect.

Stock tin, yes, it keeps the stock appearance for the stock motor.

also, leave the compression alone. save the motor! cc the finishers that finish in the $

weights, leave them as they are. we have a 2 seater and we have to run it full of fuel to make minimums for the short coarse track.

wheels, leave them steel and 15". we must have 30 of them. why change?

more power? what about the 34 pict? 30 pic & 30 pict are getting a little hard to find. short of buying new. the 34's are everywhere.

claimer rule. raise it! and include a seperate one for the tranny too. spend as you want, just be ready when you finish. if you need an irs setup, go ahead and convert it over and kick butt in that "champ" class. that class sounds like fun!

When we got into the class it was a starter deal. keep the running gear as close to stock as possible and see if you could finish. when you get it all figured out and you want to go faster, then move up to "champ/1600", 1600's, 12's, 10's, semi/pro, etc.

Basically, consider saving the class as it is today. find any old frames out there and get some new people in the class, they will have a blast just like you have.

keep the greasy side down...
Eric
956 in vorra

Kat_Metal_Worx

May 4th, 2007, 13:40

You a hired gun now Pinky? As Cheater's PR person: He will not be running a 2 seater mid season!, or will he??? He is also not the father of Anna's kid...

Jeff Cheater's new car should be done by the snore midnight race the new and improoved class 9 truggy

ACME

May 7th, 2007, 10:06

KATFAAAAAB! Shhhh it's a secret, remember...

9rocky

May 10th, 2007, 06:28

I am not currently racing class 9, but started there, and I am getting one for my son next year. Here is my $.02

!. Trans internals fo sure, still swingaxle though.

2. Tin = no brainer

3. Beam, allow chromoly aftermarket, still ball joint. When I raced 9, we broke the beam all the time.

9rocky

May 14th, 2007, 08:42

What are the chances that you guys are going to get these rule changes put in place?

BeanerBoy

May 14th, 2007, 12:20

Not very good.... It's very hard to get all the racers on the same page on these issues... The only way I see these rules being changed is getting with the promotors of MORE, SNORE, and MDR where most 9 cars race to agree on a set of rules. I don't see SCORE showing intrest on changing the rules due to the fact that none of us race with SCORE and the SCORE racers aren't asking to change anything.

class7s

May 14th, 2007, 17:42

My opinion is SCORE does not care about class 9 or the other lower end cars. I would go to Jim at MORE and ask him if we can institute some rule changes. He is one hell of guy and loves to work with the real racers

9rocky

May 15th, 2007, 07:46

Maybe Corey, Francis, and some of the regular 9 guys should set up a meeting with Jim on these proposed changes. I supposedly just bought my son a 9 car, so I am very interested in seeing if these rules changes can go through.

Johnson954

May 15th, 2007, 08:29

I'm willing to be a 3rd 9-car guy to meet with Jim. Maybe we can all hit him up this next race and a least get an idea of what he would want to make the changes. MORE seems to be turning out the highest count of 9-car entries, so that would be a great place to start.

9rocky

May 15th, 2007, 12:26

Sounds good Steve, I would volunteer, but my son can't race till next year, and with us running class 1, it would look funny. Should Art be brought in on this?

Johnson954

May 15th, 2007, 15:42

I'm sure Art will have a say-so, he always does! haha

I think Jim is really in tune with the 9-car guys (former 9-car racer himself), and he'll be our best bet in getting some changes that will "benefit" the racers. He already okay'd the M/T tires that are too tall, so hopefully he will see the need for some more changes.

9rocky

May 15th, 2007, 15:51

The trans is the most important thing in my opinion. Even if you put FTC 1st and 2nd gear sets in, it is still a swinger. It could blow up if the wind blows the wrong way. I do not think $400-500 bucks extra is going to break the "budget class". Especially if you can get a whole season out of them. My $.02

Johnson954

May 15th, 2007, 17:19

I wouldn't think anyone racing class nine right now would complain about spending $600 for a stronger tranny.

BeanerBoy

May 15th, 2007, 21:19

Steve at the drivers meeting next week lets get all the nine racers together and get this going for 08!!!

9rocky

May 16th, 2007, 04:23

Thanks guys, it looks like the people I am getting my son's 9 car from are going to be nice enough to deliver it this weekend since I am having back surgery on Monday. Now if these rules get changed, I can let him learn to drive it till next year, and destroy the trans. Then when mini-me needs the trans rebuilt, we can get the new stuff put in. I talked to Sir Francis yesterday, and even though he is not racing, he says he is there.

ACME

May 16th, 2007, 06:55

9rocky

May 16th, 2007, 07:41

I know a bunch of the ACME guys will step up as well as it flat out makes sense for the class! Just keep in mind that if you run somewhere else they will not honor the rules and the "SCOPE" sees all...

We are not planning to run anywhere but MORE. But, just like power steering in 5/1600, Score followed Jim's lead, and allowed it. Not saying that is going to happen here, if Jim even allows it, but let's hope. Watch out for "Mini-me" in 2008, going to dress it up just like the 1 car, just hope my kid grows some nuts by then. Trying to keep up with Corey and Francis and the rest of the fast guys is going to be tough. I swore I would never own another VW POS after experiencing fuel injected American muscle, but I learned in class 9, will be a good place for Junior to learn. Hopefully, we can get him something non VW powered within a year or 2.

Johnson954

May 16th, 2007, 16:46

Sounds good Corey.

I just have one question....do they wear rubber gloves when they use the "scope"????

BeanerBoy

May 17th, 2007, 11:56

For everyones protection I hope they do, That scope has been in some dirty places so it might not be a bad idea to double bag the scope to!!!!!

class7s

May 17th, 2007, 13:37

I am open to any changes, hopefully they will implemented before I finish my project. Hate to have to replace anything

9rocky

May 17th, 2007, 17:10

I do not know if Jim or Ron monitors this board, so who is going to post on the More board that 9 guys want to have a meeting with Jim?

ACME

May 23rd, 2007, 09:33

DONE! Jim would like to meet with all the interested MORE Class 9 drivers/owners to discuss possible rules changes this weekend at the race. When/where: This Saturday, 12:00 noon, at the ACME main pit at the MORE race. He says he'll have an hour to talk about what everyone would like to see changed, and open the discussions for future changes to class 9 at MORE. you wanted it you got it, see you there...

ACME

May 23rd, 2007, 11:31

MORE CLASS 9 MEETING TIME/LOCATION CHANGE: 1:00 Sat at the MORE trailer.

As posted on the MORE board:

Jim@MORE:
Sorry Guys the meeting is change to 1:00 at the MORE trailer. right after the Chili Cook off. I told Jeff 12 noon but forgot my other commitment.

class7s

May 23rd, 2007, 11:36

Just got my number from Jim @ More. 924 is now mine. I will agree to any of the changes that you guys want to do

Johnson954

May 23rd, 2007, 15:48

Sweet! We'll be there!

9rocky

May 24th, 2007, 10:59

I just got off the phone with Weddle Industries, and they told me they already have every ratio available 1st and 2nd for the 4.12 or 3.88 ring and pinion. They reminded me that they have drag cars with swingaxles running their gears with 300+ HP and not breaking them. They are the same gears used in the Mendeola E box. They are faxing me a copy of the available ratios and pricing, that I will make copies of and get to Saturdays meeting.

mike_hinson

May 29th, 2007, 12:25

I was unable to attend the meeting with Jim/MORE regarding Class 9 rule changes. Does anyone have any info from the meeting?
Thanks,
Mike Hinson-938

9rocky

May 30th, 2007, 05:57

I was unable to attend the meeting with Jim/MORE regarding Class 9 rule changes. Does anyone have any info from the meeting?
Thanks,
Mike Hinson-938

Mike,

I heard it did not go well, which is typical whenever you put a group of people together to try to form a consensus. I am going to write my views here and hope they are taken in the right context. I just got an old 9 car for my son to race. Some of you know I used to race 9 14 years ago, now we race class 1. I am not bragging about what we have or could do, so this is where people might take this out of context. I bought a complete car, which has mostly decent parts on it as opposed to building something brand new. This was mostly a personal and a family choice because we do not want our son to think he gets the best of everything just handed to him. The car has 2" diameter shocks in the rear, am I going to change to 2.5", no, they are good enough. It has a single port motor, am I going to run out and get it re-done with dual ports to get that whopping extra 2 hp? No, it is good enough, it runs good, and he can learn with this engine. These are both things that the rules CURRENTLY say we can change to make better. Now to the trans, this is my personal pet peeve. This has always been the weakest link. If the rules said I could run an aftermarket ring and pinion and 1st and 2nd mainshaft, would I change those? You bet, in a New York minute. That is something that would help the car from a durability standpoint, and give my son the best chance to finish. He can come down a few extra times with his foot still in the throttle (cause he is learning) without that stock crap disintegrating and ending his day. It will still be the weak link (along with the ball joints) because it is still a swing axle type 1. Someday soon, this is going to happen anyway. Who thought that there would be a short supply of single port heads? There is not an endless supply of stock 4.12's or other trans internals available. Everyone needs to get together and think about what is good for the class, and not whine about "that guy spent $600 bucks I can't afford". My $.02.

ACME

May 31st, 2007, 10:06

Sorry it took so long to post RE the "meeting last weekend but I've been on the road...

Thanks to all that showed and I think the meeting was a great success and thanks to all that showed, we had a number of parties that were not racing on Sat. that drove in just for the meeting and that extra effort is what makes this class great!

Numerous things were discussed and it was all prefaced with the comment: "Jim (MORE) is the ultimate decisions maker and will take all comments/requests into consideration, but he will make the final decision for MORE and this meeting would only apply to MORE as a sanctioning body". With that said the conversation began. Topics such as cooling tin, fan shrouds, opening up the tranny rules, aluminum wheels, alum. centered drums, weight of cars, NOT ALLOWING FORTIN SHIFTERS, and even power steering were discussed. The consensus of the meeting was that everyone wanted to keep the class as originally intended, the costs reasonable, and not turn the cars into mini 16's. The comments flew and some discussions were more animated than others but in the end we all agreed on a few things: 1) Cutting Cooling Tin and any Fan Shroud is legal as long as it's type 1. 2) No aluminum wheels or centers. 3) Any single tube from shock tower to shock tower which may attach to the shock towers in any manner. Jim agreed that these were acceptable, offered no performance advantage and cleaned the existing rules up as some cars did not adhere to the current rules and might have been subject to post race controversy.

Jim will put a ballot together on the other issues which were discussed and mail it to every 9 car that has raced in MORE with a SASE. This will allow all the racers and involved parties who will be racing later this season an opportunity to vote with a secret ballot on the other topics which were discussed. Jim will then review the ballots, make a decision for MORE and let us know of the pending changes after a future event.

As far as the meeting not going well; everyone has an opinion but any time you can get 15+ people to gether to discuss a racing topic and come to some understanding, that is a success in my book... Bonus, by not having it in the ACME pit it kept the Misfits out of our ice chests, the problem is they made their way to our pit later in the day...

Thanks to all that showed and gave their .02!

9rocky

May 31st, 2007, 10:14

NOT ALLOWING FORTIN SHIFTERS

Jeff,

Who the heck is running a Fortin shifter?

ACME

May 31st, 2007, 13:11

the FFFfffabulous one...

9rocky

May 31st, 2007, 14:22

the FFFfffabulous one...

That is just a Kartek shifter in Fortin clothing, I figured that was why that was capitalized. You already got your panties in a bunch, and it aint even September yet, when you usually wear your dress.

Psycho 910

May 31st, 2007, 15:25

I run a fortin shifter, what is the big deal?

Scrapiron

May 31st, 2007, 22:21

Can someone explain why a Fortin shifter would be a problem?

Haney motorsports

May 31st, 2007, 23:37

9rocky

June 1st, 2007, 05:47

9 rocky,Why would you be pushing for new rules when you haven't brought you car up to the current ones?I still belive there are plenty of single port heads out there and it was some what of an excuse made to increase multiple classes (by the way the increase was much more then a few ponies). We have ran multiple courses with multiple drivers and have only lost a hockey stick in our trans. Now this could be that we didn't run competitive races,baja is like a highway,or our tranny builders have good magic wands but I tend to believe that these trannies are pretty darn tough. For 1 or 10 to say lets get together and change a class in just one series just doesn't make since. Major Rule changes should go through Bill Savage,and I'm sure you know why.Changing rules in local events just make it harder for entries to boom.Look around a little before you assume there are limited 4.12's and 4.37's around,heck I haven't raced in 9 in a while and I have plenty of this stuff laying around, most of the time I not looking for it. I did not attend this meeting and kind of glad I didn't,Power steering,alum drums.A great 9 guru once told me "Shouldn't change nothing in that class,perfect the way it is" I tend to agree. A new trans already seems a little steep in price I know I would not want to add another 600 to the bill,I prefer to roll the dice.

C.haney

Chris,

I did not start this thread. It was started by Kenny Thatcher, who is involved with SNORE. That is two race series that are discussing these issues. Power steering in 5/1600 was started in one series (not SCORE by the way) and eventually Savage also allowed it. These issues are only in the discussion phase right now, so if someone wants to present their point of view, let em. I said that at some point in the future, there would not be a supply of ring and pinions and other trans internals. I have talked to a couple of tranny builders, and they agree that eventually, there will not be enough supply of cores. I have also had a couple of tranny builders tell me that if they allowed aftermarket ring and pinions and mainshafts, they would recommend to their customers that are going through their trans every race, to go to two races if nothing comes out in the oil. So, if your trans builder charges between $300 - $500 labor, in 2 races you paid for your mainshaft (-1 labor charge). Some trans builders do not like doing swingers anyway from what I am told, so they are willing to take one for the team. When we ran 9 before, we ran a 4.37, and as I have posted before, toast every time. Just mag. indications, but enough to make you worry and change it anyways. Back then, the fastest cars were running between 34-36 MPH averages in Barstow. Now someone like Corey, is running 36-39 MPH average in Barstow. That is a pretty significant change. Change is the key word, as they have allowed resevoired shocks, adjusters, FORTIN SHIFTERS, the cars have gotten faster. Who would have thought that a 5/1600 would be a 1600 car with a bug body on it, and maybe that is what people are concerned with as IMHO that has cut that class way down due to the costs. As Jeff said, it is going to be voted on, then Jim will make a decision. We will race within the rules as they are written. If they are changed, then we will make a decision as to whether will change with them. I am not the only person who is concerned about the trans, just more vocal. There are lots of others.

9rocky

June 1st, 2007, 08:41

Can someone explain why a Fortin shifter would be a problem?

I am pretty sure it is a joke. It is Toydude's subtle way of giving Frank (aka Fffrrancis) a hard time about spending $$$$$ on a trick shifter. But Jeff, it would not be the trophy 9 (see other thread ) without a ffaabbbulous shifter, now would it.

ACME

June 4th, 2007, 19:24

I agree with Chris, changes for change sake are not in the best interest of the class. However, these cars have evolved as a result of the dual ports and now the tranny is a major weak link, I'm split on this one but favor opening them up. If your racing in other associations that is a concern, however MORE gets more 9 cars at most races than SCORE does in a season so it only makes sense to start with the major player and let it filter down to all the smaller organizations... The last thing anyone wants is someone starting a sub class of their own, that would make no sense at all would it?Bill S. is not the big Kahuna in class 9 and though everyone uses the Score rule book as a guideline (right or wrong), Jim is the ultimate authority at MORE, so it is his decision. From my perspective I believe the association that should lead the trend should be the one that listens to the racers and takes their thoughts into consideration not one that no one really races. Besides I've seen them make a ton of changes that make no sense to me. Here's an example; new chassis, the rules demand a single diagonal across the back of the chassis for roof regidity. They made one, very succesful car builder change all his cars to 1.5", .090 diagonals from a 1" .090 "X" that he had been using for years. I'm not a structural engineer as some claim however, in a 2 seater I believe a 1" "X" of the same material would offer more structural integrity than a single diagonal thus this throws the "know all" theory out the window... This, after they implemented an inspection and told everyone with chassis built to conform to the old rules, you won't fail and would be grand-fathered in. Then they go on to enforce rules for gussets and other things that were not previously required. Besides do you think the "Big Promoter" really gives a rats behind about the 2-3, 9 cars that show? Unless your check bounces or there's an on course issue the 9's are off their radar. Now on to the more important issues; FFFffffrancis wants to know if he car run sans helmet as it messes up his hair, and if he ever races again he wants to look good doing it. All in favor???

BeanerBoy

June 4th, 2007, 21:03

Just a quick question, What did people break at the last race????? With under half the field finishing why don't we look at what people are breaking......

dislocated1

June 4th, 2007, 21:51

988 broke a saginaw steering box, but we still managed to limp around and get a finish, it was like driving a car with zero steering, wore a damn whole in my driving gloves!!....... I too am curious to hear what people are breaking on a normal basis.......

justplainnate

June 4th, 2007, 21:53

lower rear shock mounts...

Scrapiron

June 4th, 2007, 23:33

Just a quick question, What did people break at the last race????? With under half the field finishing why don't we look at what people are breaking......

Engine compression rule.

Johnson954

June 5th, 2007, 01:26

We didn't get to go to the meeting...pre-running took a little longer than expected....but one thing I thought was interesting, was that it was being said that the changes would actually make the trannies weaker. If that is the case, then what is the big deal? Open them up and let the people who spend more money on their trannies break easier!

I personally think that the trannies are still going to be the weak link, no matter what. The swing axle tranny is just not a superior product for off road racing, and the stronger it is made, the faster we will drive, thus breaking it still. It is the limiting factor. The only way to solve the problem is to get rid of it. If I could have my ideal 9car it would be built to the old CORR rules for light buggy....meaning you could run "stock" IRS and "stock" link pin front end. Now I know I just sent some of you into a frenzy, but we are not talking about a 1/2 1600 car...I can't afford one of those, but I can afford to make those changes to my current set up...same wheel base, same motor, same shocks, same weight, but 9-car problems removed.

Now you're talking about an entry level car for any racer, that does not cost too much to build, and would last all season with minor up-keep. I think it would be the ultimate class. I know, SNORE has the champ class, but those to me are more like 1/2 1600 cars, longer wheel base, etc.

For now though, we will just keep trying to improve, and avoid big rocks in Lucerne, and we are going to lose the passenger in the upcoming races, because our car is too heavy as a 2 seat. We were getting spanked in the uphill washes, and in the rough. Our tranny lasted so far, but we only have about 200 miles on it. We will go through it before the next race though, because it is just too risky not to.

Lifeflight

June 5th, 2007, 10:25

We all know a swing-axle in stock form is stronger than an irs in stock form. Does anyone realy think a stock type 1 CV would last a season let alone a race? The last thing i want to prep are CV's every race and carry a complete setup on my car. Also, the ball joint front end was developed as a stronger & simpler peice over a stock link pin. I too think tranny's should be open'd up just to end the whole agument. I also think unless you totaly minimize every single bolt, metal tube and find a driver that weighs 150 pound or less plus a co-dog thats smaller than a 12 year old child, a two seater will continue to get smoked by the single seaters. 1,450 and 1,650 should be the minimums.

ACME

June 5th, 2007, 11:14

Stock BJ is way stronger than stock LP. On the trannies a type 1 swing axle is the same as a type 1 IRS only difference is the axles/cvs' etc... How many guys are DNF'g due to breaking axles? My wifes 11 car runs the IRS and it's weak, plus a pain in the arse to work on. Also there are no "beefy" aftermarket stock parts other than sway away axles and I guarantee that the type 1 stuff will not hold up, it barely holds up in the 11 cars that run it... Keep it the same! If you want IRS build a 16 or go race with the other 3-4 champ cars in NV.

To answer Cheaters question: So far we've got a broken chevy steering box, what else? FYI my wifes 11 went out while leading with a rear arm pivot bolt problem that ripped the axle out of the CV and again it's stock IRS...

Johnson954

June 5th, 2007, 13:43

By "stock", I meant dimensions, not necessarliy parts.

BeanerBoy

June 5th, 2007, 16:10

Engine compression rule.

Where are you going with that comment???

ACME

June 6th, 2007, 09:10

By "stock", I meant dimensions, not necessarliy parts.

Then you want a "Chump Car"...

racer951

August 2nd, 2007, 21:12

9rocky

August 3rd, 2007, 11:49

Any chance you could post a copy here?

Here is a pdf of the available ratios. I removed the pricing so the mods would not think it is spam. Pricing info needs to come from Weddle or your trans builder.

redbaronrace

August 7th, 2007, 00:24

correy i think tha coment haad todo with yur after market main shaft you`ve been running and yur 8.5-9.0 to one motor !!!!!!oh did i say that outload sorry!

justplainnate

August 7th, 2007, 00:59

correy i think tha coment haad todo with yur after market main shaft you`ve been running and yur 8.5-9.0 to one motor !!!!!!oh did i say that outload sorry!

i can vouch for his tranny, theres nothing there. but i wouldnt be surprised if a few guys are already running built trannys.

BeanerBoy

August 7th, 2007, 08:35

correy i think tha coment haad todo with yur after market main shaft you`ve been running and yur 8.5-9.0 to one motor !!!!!!oh did i say that outload sorry!

Eric, maybe you've had a hard time crawling over the hill to get out of Pahrump to go to a race but in post tech at the SNORE Midnight Special heads were pulled and checked, my motor came out having low compression. Why don't you come out to the next MORE race on September the 15th with a wad of cash and place in the top 5 and start protesting parts. If thats not enough time to get the money and "The Red Baron" together we will be racing two weeks later, not sure where yet.

correy=Corey
haad=had
yur=your

racer951

August 7th, 2007, 09:03

Eric, it sounds like you need some dents in your rear bumper to go along with an elementary English lesson. I'll gladly provide both but I've never heard of you until now. When's your next race?

ffrank

August 7th, 2007, 09:08

Senior Torres if your willing to sell your motor for 1000.00 I'll give you 1200.00 and a free meal at Del Taco ( I know how you guys like that). I to would like a piece of the Red Baron, in another post I believe he called me a wussie with a "P". Please come out and lets have a "dog fight" Mr. Baron. Ohh ya and bring cash!!!

9rocky

August 7th, 2007, 09:17

correy i think tha coment haad todo with yur after market main shaft you`ve been running and yur 8.5-9.0 to one motor !!!!!!oh did i say that outload sorry!

Outload? Is that like when you blow your wad or something? Looks like you pissed a few people off in 20 misspelled words or less. Congratulations!!!

ACME

August 7th, 2007, 10:44

I agree with Eric, you're right on man! I'm going on record that Correy is a CHEATER! Correy has never had a head pulled and looked at puffed or CC'd, never had his tranny looked at or tech'd, heck, they didn't buy a scope to single him out it was just a ruse by the establishment, he's never been a target at the races he's run or in post tech by whining competitors. Correy has all the associations and tech people in his back pocket and does whatever he wants. I'm guessing the the Torres Racing empire has thrown hundred's of thousands of dollars, maybe millions around so he can be a baller in class 9! Now we all know, I feel better that it's all in the open. Eric, I'm glad you had the stones to call him out, it needed to be done! I'm just frustrated that it took you so long to get power to the trailer and make the truth be known. Keep up the good work, puff, puff pass and say hi to Bobby/Buddy...

PEST

August 7th, 2007, 15:03

get the money and "The Red Baron" together

He can't, it's rolled and in my garage.

scottys-misfit

August 7th, 2007, 15:22

Is it possable to get a picture of Manfred Von Richthofen's a.k.a (the red baron / snoopy)bi-plane, so someone would know when they have the correct enemy in there crosshairs. I would hate to see someone shot down by freindly fire.

redbaronrace

August 7th, 2007, 20:04

9rocky

August 7th, 2007, 20:09

redbaronrace

August 7th, 2007, 20:13

now thers a real historian scotty knows the real man behind the REDBARON....A+ to u. and whats all this get the cash together to protest , ill just GRIND on the officials todo there jobs like its supposed to be done . motor,trans and weight every time . how many cars got DQ`d in caliente?????????????/hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....... i like it when the cheaters get busted!!!!!!

redbaronrace

August 7th, 2007, 20:18

nah rocky had ruben wood hit me at his top speed on a pole line road in nelson hills in his one car . just keep it straight as i flew off into the rocks...MAN I LOVE NELSON HILLS >.............hey pest can i barrow yur car for that race?

PEST

August 8th, 2007, 00:34

hey pest can i barrow yur car for that race?

You sure can it's quite bent out of shape right now.

redbaronrace

August 8th, 2007, 09:36

HOW BAD IS IT ? send a pic to my email redbaronrace@aol.com

ACME

August 8th, 2007, 11:01

You tell him Eric, I'm glad someone has the stones to tell it like it is! I'm sick and tired of watching Correy abuse class 9 like he is. I heard from this guy, whose sister has a cousin, that knows a guy who hangs out at the 7-11 in Barstow picking up chicks, who heard that Correy paid a certain team off not to race. Keep up the good work Red Baron, we need more people like you! Do you have any insight into the Kennedy conspiracy? I'm glad to see the powers still on... Generator?

9 car groupie

August 8th, 2007, 13:27

correy i think tha coment haad todo with yur after market main shaft you`ve been running and yur 8.5-9.0 to one motor !!!!!!oh did i say that outload sorry!

Wow, you sure are making friends and influencing all the people of the 9 car world....you must be something special

redbaronrace

August 8th, 2007, 18:50

hey pest seriously , send me sum pics of the damage , might be able to help us both out ......

BeanerBoy

August 8th, 2007, 19:45

no corey , i dont have a hard time "crawling" over the hill , i do it every day for work , you probly wont see me racing off road any more unless its ontop of 2 wheels or 4 , just helping out a few freinds now . and ive had my farshare of dents ,front and rear , beleive me im not scared , maybe if yur robby gordon and u catch me in a single lane wash i might be skeeeeeerd!!!!!!!!!!!any one else ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no! as for my internet short hand get over it u over educated dweeb .

We'll If you do make it over the hill you should have come out to the SNORE Midnight Special where heads were removed on the top three class 9 cars to make sure they were legal, and they were. Guess what, They even weighted the cars and checked the trannys. I'm not over educated, just educated. If you weren't fortunate enough to become educated there is this really cool thing that computers can do.. They can spell check, it can make an idiot look like an educated person, you should try it!!!