Dakar 2006 stuff.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Some map stuff

http://www.dakar.com/2006/presentation/docs/roadbook.pdf

Some press stuff

http://www.dakar.com/2006/presentation/docs/cp_05_05_11_us.doc

Technical rules T-1 (Robby and Miller's class)

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1154856872__AppJ_2004_Art_285.pdf

Regulations all class'

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1632357571__AppJ_2004_Art_281.pdf


I have some more stuff I will link later...

[cabo500]

FYI

BFGoodrich seeking fifth consecutive Dakar win
Two tyre specifications available for competitors [28/12/05 - 12:35]




Zoom
BFGoodrich ready for the Dakar challenge

he 28th Dakar Rally, which is due to start in Lisbon on December 31, will take entrants on a 9,043km traverse of Portugal, Spain, Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Guinea and finally Senegal where the event will end on the shores of the Lac Rose. To reach this traditional finish ceremony location, the 508 competitors will have to rely principally on their road books. The organisers have effectively taken steps to restrict the use of GPS aids with a view to putting the onus back on traditional navigation skills and enhancing the role of the co-drivers. All the top runners have honed their preparation for this year's African classic with particular care and the 2006 Euromhiloes Dakar promises to be a very close and exciting thriller.

With twenty consecutive Baja 1000 victories, eight FIA Cross-Country World Cups and six wins on the legendary Dakar to its name, BFGoodrich Tires, producer of rally-raid's benchmark tyres, has this year produced two types of tyre for its partners: the Rock T/A (235/85 16), which has triumphed in the past two Dakars in association with Mitsubishi, plus the evolution All-Terrain T/A Comp (235/85 16). Given that the single tyre type ruling continues to apply this year, the different factory teams will have to choose just one of these tyres prior to the start.




"The single tyre type ruling and the outlawing of automatic inflation/deflation systems for 4x4 vehicles means that the work of BFGoodrich Tires has this year focused on the versatility of its products. The BFGoodrich Rock is suited to all the different types of terrain visited by the 2006 Dakar. However, crews must be extremely rigorous when it comes to adjusting their tyre pressure to match the type of surface they are actually driving over," underlines Aimé Chatard, BFGoodrich Tires' Rallies Programme Manager. "On rough ground, running with the 'ideal' pressure protects the tyre and its sidewalls, while for sand it is necessary to reduce air pressure in order to increase the size of the tyre-to-ground contact patch. Yet crews very often omit to re-inflate their tyres after crossing dunes or voluntarily run with low pressure over rough portions with a view to enhancing performance. But punctures are inevitable in this case."

Tyre and tyre pressure management
Dominique Bravy, BFGoodrich Tires Cross-Country tyre technician, also stresses the importance of running with the right tyre pressure: "Good tyre and tyre pressure management is vital in cross country rallying. The stages are long, the surface is often rough and the competitors get up to very high speeds. This causes tyre pressures to increase with distance. Now that cabin-mounted inflation/deflation systems have been banned, certain crews are tempted to take risks by running with low pressures. Yet at the beginning of a leg, the cars can be carrying as much as 500 litres of fuel plus four spare wheels. Running with such a heavy load, competitors need to inflate their tyres to the pressures recommended by BFGoodrich Tires' technicians, especially at the rear."

However, although onboard inflation/deflation systems continue to be outlawed in the case of 4x4 vehicles, they are still permitted for two-wheel drive cars. "This is undeniably a 'plus' for the two-wheel drive runners because they don't have to keep stopping to adjust the pressure of their tyres, an operation which can cost something like four minutes."

This year, BFGoodrich Tires has made the All-Terrain tyre – an evolution of the Rock – available for its partner teams. "The construction of the BFGoodrich All-Terrain Comp allows it to combine reduced rolling resistance on sand with greater precision. It's not a revolution, however; more an evolution," says Aimé Chatard. "In the world of cross-country rallying, testing is a difficult and complex business. In order to validate an evolution, you need to cover between 350 and 400km. This work generally takes place in Morocco where it is possible to work on different types of surface in the same basic area. The teams have worked hard to prepare for the 2006 event and the vehicles themselves have come on considerably. The technology we will see on this year's Dakar is of a very high level."

Rocks, wadis, dunes, camel grass… and the rest!
The total length of the 2006 Dakar is 9,043km, of which some 5,000km will be against the clock. It's a classic route which features all the usual challenges as competitors make their way between Lisbon and Dakar, including the rocky tracks and wadis of Morocco, the dunes and ergs of Mauritania and the camel grass and flats of Mali, while Guinea will see a switch to narrower tracks that wind their way through luxuriant vegetation. "The first two stages in Morocco could spring a surprise or two," warns Aimé Chatard. "The tracks are very rough and the drivers will be looking to size each other up as the rally gets into its swing, so the pace will no doubt be very quick."

Another likely challenge will be the marathon leg that the organisers have programmed during the second half of the event, between Bamako and Tambacounda. Although crews will be able to rest overnight in Labe, no work on the cars will be permitted. "Last year, the marathon leg was severely affected by a sandstorm, so we weren't able to get any feedback about tyres which will have to survive for 1,400km. That's a very tough challenge."

A clash between Mitsubishi and Volkswagen, with BMW and Schlesser-Ford waiting in ambush
With a record of ten Dakar wins to its name, including five in a row, Mitsubishi Ralliart once again stands out as the team to beat in 2006. As part of his and the team's preparation for the Dakar, outgoing, two-times winner Stéphane Peterhansel won last November's UAE Desert Challenge in style, while Luc Alphand, who finished 2nd in 2005, is becoming more and more competitive. This will be the former skiing champion's ninth Dakar and he won two rallies outright in 2005 (Tunisia and Portuguese Baja). Mitsubishi's ranks also include double Dakar winner Hiroshi Masuoka and former biker Joan Nani Roma.

Volkswagen has revealed its determination to win the 2006 Dakar by entering five Race Touareg 2s for Bruno Saby, who took three FIA Cross Country wins in 2005 to sew up the World Cup as early as last July, Jutta Kleinshmidt (2001 Dakar winner), two-times World Rally Champion Carlos Sainz, South Africa's Giniel De Villiers and Mark Miller from the USA, a choice line-up indeed to take on Mitsubishi's experienced squad. However, the BMW-X5s and the Schlesser-Ford Buggies (Jean-Louis Schlesser, Thierry Magnaldi, Josep Maria Servia) can also be expected to play a leading role again.

Competition from America
Although BFGoodrich Tires supply the majority of the 2006 field, the Dakar is not a 'control tyre' event. "We will be keeping a close eye on the performance of America's Robby Gordon. He's an extremely experienced off-roader and he will be driving a Hummer running on another brand of tyres," says Aimé Chatard. During the Dakar, individual teams are responsible for the transport of their own tyres (approximately 80 per vehicle, and mounted on rims prior to the start). Even so, additional supplies and fitting work (carried out on-site by Euromaster) is programmed in the course of the event.

Latest 15 stories, here...Robby Gordon: “Not here to...Off we go for day 2 of...Scrutineering goes on nice and...The first day of scrutineering...Jutta Kleinschmidt starts her...The Dakar Rally in...BFGoodrich seeking fifth...Volkswagen ready for the Dakar...Lisbon Dakar rally route...Lisbon Dakar rally route...Robby Gordon Tackling the Most...Merry Christmas and happy New...Two-wheel challenge in the...Many famous names at the...Volkswagen without Technical...
Press Release
BFGoodrich

[cabo500]

check out the very cool audio updates from mark miller on http://www.usadakar.com/

[cabo500]

Check your area listings.

DAKAR OLN COVERAGE:

1/1/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/2/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/3/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/4/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/5/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/6/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/7/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKARRALLYHIGHLIGHTS
1/8/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/9/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/10/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/11/06 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/12/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/13/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLYHIGHLIGHTS
1/14/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/14/2006 7:00 pm - 8:00 pm DAKAR RALLY
1/14/2006 10:00 pm - 11:00 pm DAKAR RALLY
1/15/2006 1:00 am - 2:00 am DAKAR RALLY
1/15/2006 4:00 pm - 4:30 pm DAKAR RALLY HIGHLIGHTS
1/21/2006 8:00 pm - 9:00 pm DAKAR RALLY
1/21/2006 11:00 pm - 12:00 am DAKAR RALLY
1/22/2006 2:00 am - 3:00 am DAKAR RALLY

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Don't forget OLN has a show on right before the Dakar coverage. It's called, "Baja Diaries" @12:00PM PST

[cabo500]

Check out this KILLER blog
grab some coffee-you'll be there awhile!

http://www.flyhiflylo.blogspot.com/

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Check out this KILLER blog
grab some coffee-you'll be there awhile!

http://www.flyhiflylo.blogspot.com/

I've already checked that blog out. It sucks!

[Boa1277]

I enjoyed the website. I did get alot of useful info. I am still trying to figure out how to use the live timing website. Where do you think Robby will have the most impact,(which stage) Thanks for the info, it is worth looking at if you are into the Dakar....

http://www.flyhiflylo.blogspot.com/

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I enjoyed the website. I did get alot of useful info. I am still trying to figure out how to use the live timing website. Where do you think Robby will have the most impact,(which stage) Thanks for the info, it is worth looking at if you are into the Dakar....

http://www.flyhiflylo.blogspot.com/

The live timing is some what tricky.

You have to click on the clock on the lower right on your desktop and change to GMT. (8:59PM right now) (Chase 2 figured that one out)

Then select the four teams you want to follow.

It refreshes about every ten minutes.

[bufeo]

Thanks again Flyhi for your BLOG. It's a great site.

I've been following the Dakar Rally for over twenty years, and I can attest to the fact that trying to understand what's going on over there from this side of the pond can be extremely frustrating. And back in the days, read: years, before the tel/sat communications we have now was archaeic in comparison.

I can remember getting up at 0200 (PT) and tuning in shortwave radio to try and get updates. I even strung a makeshift antenna between our house and the neighbor's house in order to try and improve the reception.

The comment that Gordon had yesterday about getting off course following someone who they, Gordon/Skilton, thought would "know the way" and losing over two minutes getting back on track is only minutae of all the things that can go wrong.

Gordon said something to the effect that “This is an incredibly large and confusing area of the earth; it’s very easy to trust your racing instinct instead of the route book and your navigator… ."

These IriTrack and internet hookups are fantastic, but, at the same time, they can be confusing owing to the brevity of information, and I HATE IT when those little car/moto images just STOP on track. Last spring during the Tunisia Rally I was up following Grider 'live' and the image just stopped. I mean cold stopped, no movement. It wasn't until the update from Gauloises Racing that I learned that Andy's transponder broke.

That was a relief because I had visions of Andy being stranded somewhere in the eastern Sahara...or worse, being lost in the neighboring Libya. Yikes!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Thanks again Flyhi for your BLOG. It's a great site.


I can remember getting up at 0200 (PT) and tuning in shortwave radio to try and get updates. I even strung a makeshift antenna between our house and the neighbor's house in order to try and improve the reception.

Dude you are hard core.

Glad you like the blog. I have been on vacation for the two weeks so it made it easy to be up to date on the Blog in a timely fashion.

[bufeo]

Dude you are hard core.

Glad you like the blog. I have been on vacation for the two weeks so it made it easy to be up to date on the Blog in a timely fashion.


Good on ya! We're now spoiled, so we expect you to take more time off and continue the up-dates. :D

[bufeo]

Here's another link some of you might like to see. Chris Blais' dad and wife, Patty, are doing a great job keeping readers informed. Chris has been phoning in regularly. Gives another perspective.

http://www.district37ama.org/forums/index.php?

Good read.

[kats]

Sorry for asking a basic question, can someone explain whats the difference between (special and connection) ?
Thanks.

[Chase 2]

Sorry for asking a basic question, can someone explain whats the difference between (special and connection) ?
Thanks.

There are typically two parts to a day’s stage. The liaison (or connection) and the special. The special is the portion of the day’s stage where the fastest time wins. Although the liaisons are not included in the day’s time, there is a time limit for you to traverse them. Failing to get to the start of the special (DSS ) incurs penalties. Failing to go from the end of the day’s special stage (AS*) to the bivouac within the time period allowed, also incurs penalties.

[mattb]

Does anybody know if SCORE or BITD have ever addressed the "Dakar" racers about coming here? It would be a very smart move for one of the series to try and get these cars over for a special "Dakar Class." You all know that VW, BMW, Mitsubishi, etc. would love to say that they won the Baja 1000. None of these manufacturers are currently represented on a corporate level, and it would be awesome to see them out there.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Does anybody know if SCORE or BITD have ever addressed the "Dakar" racers about coming here? It would be a very smart move for one of the series to try and get these cars over for a special "Dakar Class." You all know that VW, BMW, Mitsubishi, etc. would love to say that they won the Baja 1000. None of these manufacturers are currently represented on a corporate level, and it would be awesome to see them out there.


They did several years back. If they did it today. LOL The one cars and TTs would blow them away! Robby's "Dakar 1 Car" is heavy and has 3-400 HP less. They would be second fast.

[mattb]

I totally agree that the cars from Europe would get killed. I think it would be great to get them to come race though.

[Icewalker]

Never heard so much twaddle in my life - what do you mean the cars from Europe would get killed ??? - VW, BMW, Mitsi etc would just turn up with something built for Baja - much the same as they do when they build the Pikes Peak specials or any other class of motorsport for that matter. Don't forget these were the guys that were building 1500cc engines that were pumping out close on 1000hp in F1 qualifying trim.

FWIW I think it would be really close run good to watch motorsport - don't care if it was a Japanese, US or European motor that wins the Dakar or Baja for that matter as long as it's good racing.

BTW - I thought that RG's car was "state of the art" ? At least that's how it was advertised at the beginning of the Dakar. All of a sudden it is "heavy and has 3 - 400 hp less" ?

If I remember correctly the reason it has 3-400hp less is so that it could get to the ole magical 500 miles per tankful. The H3 is still pumping out something like 450hp and as far as weight goes it isn't that far off the schlesser bugs and definitely less than the Bowlers.

Jeff

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Never heard so much twaddle in my life - what do you mean the cars from Europe would get killed ??? - VW, BMW, Mitsi etc would just turn up with something built for Baja - much the same as they do when they build the Pikes Peak specials or any other class of motorsport for that matter. Don't forget these were the guys that were building 1500cc engines that were pumping out close on 1000hp in F1 qualifying trim.

FWIW I think it would be really close run good to watch motorsport - don't care if it was a Japanese, US or European motor that wins the Dakar or Baja for that matter as long as it's good racing.

BTW - I thought that RG's car was "state of the art" ? At least that's how it was advertised at the beginning of the Dakar. All of a sudden it is "heavy and has 3 - 400 hp less" ?

If I remember correctly the reason it has 3-400hp less is so that it could get to the ole magical 500 miles per tankful. The H3 is still pumping out something like 450hp and as far as weight goes it isn't that far off the schlesser bugs and definitely less than the Bowlers.

Jeff

Your right if any factory team decided to win baja they could. bring some cash. But if they ran the Current Dakar cars they would get OWNED.

Good point about the small turbo motors. Without a Turbo they would need to come up with something else.

RG's car is state of the art. To you at least. and No, RG's car is very fat. I'm sure it will be on a diet for next year. He is giving up about 1K lbs to Schesser.

Robby's first time out. 15th, 14th, 11th and a 5th. out of 7 stages. He never got stuck, He never got a Flat, He never got very lost, and the best part? He has full funding to do it again.

Robby's head is already spinning up next year's combo.

[bufeo]

I totally agree that the cars from Europe would get killed. I think it would be great to get them to come race though.

If this were true (a big IF), then why don't more of the American cars go over to Dakar and kick butt?

At this juncture any projections would be pure speculation and loyalty to a type.

This discussion sort of sounds like the F-1 -- USAC Car quarrels of the fifties. It was never settled owing to the fact that they argued over the 'rules' too much and couldn't settle on how to configure the track. Only three D Jags accepted the challenge in 1957, and they had just come from a win at Le Mans.

Originally USAC and the European F-1 (or maybe it was an Italian car club, I can't remember exactly) guys wanted to incorporate the new high-banked Monza track with the road course but the USAC boys would have no part in making right-hand turns. The '57 race was run strictly on the high-banked oval and even that beat up the USAC cars. (I've driven that oval in an MGA Twin-Cam and I can attest that to keep a car up on that bank in the '50s took some real doing. My suspension stayed compressed the entire length of the curve.)

Anyway, nothing was settled, even though the following year a couple of Ferraris and Maseratis showed up.

I do remember that some great names in racing came to the party. Cigar-smoking Jimmy Bryan, Eddie Sachs, Johnnie Parsons, and Pat O'Connor were a few of the USAC drivers, and I think one of the Jags was driven by Jack Fairman in the '58 race. I know that a Jag won the First Lap prize money, but that was it.

The second race attracted more of the F-1 drivers. Phil Hill was there (he was driving F-1 at the time). Stirling Moss, Mike Hawthorne, Luigi Musso. And on the USAC side was a relative newcomer to the sport. A young upstart named A.J. Foyt.

Man, those were the days. Sorry, I'm rambling on.

Okay, who's going to send the invitations to the Rally-Raid guys??? :)

[FlyHiFlyLo]

IMO?

It's all about market exposure. A large part Dakar is only getting second day 30 min 1PM show publicity on a top 75 cable channel in the US is because of Robby. Don't get me wrong but...Very Very few care about the Dakar in the US. We are just the crazy ones. If you took every single web hit in the US related to Dakar over the last week. It wouldn't amount to one good day Nascar.Com brings in. I love the Race. Hope it will get as big here as it is in the rest of the world. It would take a Lance Armstrong type. I don't think Robby and Mark Miller could do it alone.

The Score rule is open for Dakar. It's called the open class. It isn't even ranked in the T-2 class. Robby wanted to race with the big boys so he Built a T-2. Perhaps Robby, Andy and Mark McMillen, Hovey and the rest need to go next year with their cars and show them how it's done Open Cockpit Style!

Go over there with 10 Class one cars and 10 Oshkosh 6x6 in T-4 Two Monster school buses Painted Red, White and Blue, as one team with everyone supporting each other. Then leave a trail of Budwieser beer cans, Wonder Hamburger bun bags and Lay's potato chip bags all the way to Victory in Dakar.


Oh sorry guys, I got caught up in the moment... :)

[subrunner]

Go over there with 10 Class one cars and 10 Oshkosh 6x6 in T-4 Two Monster school buses Painted Red, White and Blue, as one team with everyone supporting each other. Then leave a trail of Budwieser beer cans, Wonder Hamburger bun bags and Lay's potato chip bags all the way to Victory in Dakar.


Oh sorry guys, I got caught up in the moment... :)

LOL!!! Now there's an idea! Don't forget Marlboro's and Twinkies.:D

[bufeo]

That's a kick, FlyHi. Good post. Moment or no... :D:D:D:D:D

PS - I, for one, am glad tomorrow's a rest day.

[Chris_Wilson]

Icewalker, it's not that we don't think anyone from europe, asia, or elsewhere could
not come in and eventually be competitive, it's that with thier present state of the
art, they are significantly behind in baja racing (suspension and offroad chassis
development mostly). No matter the budget, they could not come in to baja and take
an overall anymore than they could come to Daytona and win the NASCAR 500 on the
first try. Same deal with baja racers expecting to overall Dakar in one or two tries or
IRL guys thinking they could win an F1 world championship in a couple tries.

Although Robby seems to have raised the state of the art for go-fast Dakar cars
this year, even with the DNF. It really would have been amazing for RG in a
converted class 1 baja rig to overall Dakar. For now, Mark Miller in a euro concept
car is doing outstanding but really no better than the other world class drivers
that are in the same league as him.

Comparing the state-of-the-art WRC or Rally Raid cars to a class 1 car in baja is
about as silly as comparing an old IMSA GTP to a GTS car. No way the existing
Dakar cars could even keep up with my prerunner in a Baja race, let alone a
current unlimited car. Apples and Grapes, man! And as always, just my humble opinion.

[Chase 2]

IMO?

It's all about market exposure. A large part Dakar is only getting second day 30 min 1PM show publicity on an top 75 cable channel in the US is because of Robby.

What in the world are you smoking?? We actually used to get better coverage before RG started racing Dakar. In the last two years Dakar coverage has dropped to nil as compaired to before.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

What in the world are you smoking?? We actually used to get better coverage before RG started racing Dakar. In the last two years Dakar coverage has dropped to nil as compaired to before.


"only getting second day 30 min 1PM show" before we had to wait a month. Plus it's not NETWORK COVERAGE. And even so, nobody cares in the USA is my point. Are you getting cocky on me? BTW the checks in the mail sometime this week. What's the addy Diq :C

LOL

[Offspring]

I wonder what kind of changes we will see with the H3 for the baja races? Will the hp be jacked up? Or will it be a test for Dakar 07?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I wonder what kind of changes we will see with the H3 for the baja races? Will the hp be jacked up? Or will it be a test for Dakar 07?

At this point who knows. But I'm pretty sure the plan will be the RB TT with a Hummer body on it for The 500 and the 1000. I think MEL will lay up some glass versions of the Dakar Hummer Body. This is what makes sense to me. But that Dakar Hummer would whoop butt in the SCORE/BITD open Prerunner class. This would be cool for putting some miles on it prior to next year and still let Andy do his thing. Just an Idea.

I like the deal Robby has with Andy. Marketing wise, Robby has such a diverse back ground and 37 years old just the other day, he can't be held as a Golden Child like he once was, like a Jeff Gordon or a Dale Jr. still are today. Too much water under the bridge. Motorsports fans love him or love to hate him. But Andy could be the type who could go to Dakar next year in another Hummer (kinks worked out and well tested). Then steal the hearts of America Like Lance did.

Here is a quote I read the other day.

"If Robby wins it will be an upset of galactic proportions. It would be akin to America winning the World Cup or Jamaica winning the bobsled competition -- it just shouldn’t happen, but it might."

[FlyHiFlyLo]

6. ELLIGIBLE VEHICLES
6.1 Events are open to vehicles of a maximum gross weight of up to 3,500 kg for Groups T1 and T2, and greater than 3,500 kg for Group T4, in due possession of a registration certificate.
These vehicles must comply with the safety specifications laid down by the International Convention on Road Traffic, as well as the safety specifications laid down by the FIA regulations and by these Prescriptions.
6.2 The vehicles shall be split up into the following categories:
• Group T1: Improved Cross-Country Vehicles
Vehicles homologated in the Cross-Country Group (vehicles must comply with the specific conditions for Group T1 vehicles - Appendix 2.
• Group T2: Cross-Country Series Production Vehicles
• 2-wheel drive category: the Organisers must provide for a 2-wheel drive category within Group T1.
• Group T4: Series Cross-Country Trucks weighing more than 3,500 kg (only for Marathons and Cross-Country Rallies when the terrain allows it). There will be a separate classification for T4 trucks in international Cross-Country Rallies.
6.3 Standard vehicles which are not or no longer homologated in Group T1 may be authorised to take part in Group T2 with a T1 sa¬fety and preparation level. Vehicles must fully respect Article 284 (Group T1) and must not have characteristics superior to Group T2, except in particular cases.
• For all technical information, please refer to the Technical Chap¬ter of these current specific regulations (page 45), to the FIA tech¬nical regulations and to appendix J of the FIA Prescriptions.
The total number of vehicles, of all groups combined, is limited to 185 for cars, 75 for trucks.
6P1 Eligible Vehicles
• GROUP T1: IMPROVED CROSS-COUNTRY VEHICLES
Group T1.1: Petrol 4x4 improved cross-country vehicles.
Group T1.1.1: Petrol 4x4 improved cross-country vehicles,
twin engined.
Group T1.2: Diesel 4x4 improved cross-country vehicles.
Group T1.3: Petrol or diesel 2-wheel drive vehicles.
• GROUP T2: CROSS-COUNTRY SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLES
Group T2.1: Petrol cross-country series production vehicles.
Group T2.2: Diesel cross-country series production vehicles.
• GROUPE «OPEN »
This group is reserved for drivers who do not feature in the FIA priority list. The organising committee reserve the right to refuse any crew in this category.
Group OP.1: All vehicles conforming to Score Regulations.
Group OP.2: 4 wheel drive vehicles more than 2.8 tonnes and less than 2.20 metres wide.
(see details in the technical regulations appendix of the current regulations.)
• GROUP T4: SERIES CROSS-COUNTRY TRUCKS
Group T4.1: Series production 4x4 trucks with the engine positio¬ned over the front axle.
Group T4.2: Series 6 to 8 wheel drive trucks with the engine po¬sitioned over the front axle.

2. Roll cage dimensions:
The dimensions of the tubes must conform with score regulations (2003 – 2006 Score International Off-road Racing Rules and Re¬gulations) and more precisely respect the following dimensions of the following table:
3. Weight:
Group OP.1:
For 2-wheel drive, the minimum weight is 1,350 Kg.
Group OP.2:
The minimum weight is 2,800 kg.
Or respect of Appendix J – FIA, article 285/3
4. Tyre size:
Tyres must respect the following sizes:
• 950 mm max, for 2-wheel drive Group OP.1 vehicles and for Group OP.2 vehicles.
• 840 mm max, for 4-wheel drive Group OP.1 vehicles, on 15 inch rims.
• Or respect of article 285/8, appendix J FIA
5. Vehicle width:
Group OP.1:
For 4-wheel drive, the max width is 2,20 metres.
For 2-wheel drive, the max width is 2,40 metres.
Group OP.2: The max width is 2,20 metres.
6. Restrictor:
Group OP.1 and OP.2 vehicles must conform to article 4P1.1 of the current technical regulations (2 wheel drive only), as well as with Appendix J FIA, Article 285, article 4.1.1-A.
7. Inflation / Deflation:
Automatic inflation / deflation will be allowed for Group OP.2 vehi¬cles if it exists as standard and providing the system has not been modified in any way.
Automatic inflation / deflation systems are forbidden for vehicles in Group OP.1 4x4 even if fitted as standard.
8. Miscellaneous safety equipment:
Vehicles must conform to appendix j FIA, Article 283, articles 7, 15, 16, 17 and 19.
9. Fuel tanks:
Fuel tanks must conform either to article CR21 of the score regulations
or with Appendix J FIA, Article 293, article 14.
10. Fuel:
Fuel used must conform with Appendix FIA, Article 282, article 9.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

19P2 LATE AT TIME CONTROL BEFORE THE START OF A SELECTIVE SECTION
All checking-in late at a CH (time control) preceding the start of
a selective section will be penalised by a minute per minute.
Competitors more than 30 minutes late will be awarded the day’s fixed penalty. In all cases, a new start time will be given and the competitor
must reach the end of the day’s leg following the race itinerary.

Am I reading this right?

If Robby showed up 1 hour late to the start he could have started. The ASO extended the start of stage 8 by one hour to 1:00PM. If Robby showed up at 1:59 he should have been able to start.

[cabo500]

At this point who knows. But I'm pretty sure the plan will be the RB TT with a Hummer body on it for The 500 and the 1000. I think MEL will lay up some glass versions of the Dakar Hummer Body. This is what makes sense to me. But that Dakar Hummer would whoop butt in the SCORE/BITD open Prerunner class. This would be cool for putting some miles on it prior to next year and still let Andy do his thing. Just an Idea.

I like the deal Robby has with Andy. Marketing wise, Robby has such a diverse back ground and 37 years old just the other day, he can't be held as a Golden Child like he once was, like a Jeff Gordon or a Dale Jr. still are today. Too much water under the bridge. Motorsports fans love him or love to hate him. But Andy could be the type who could go to Dakar next year in another Hummer (kinks worked out and well tested). Then steal the hearts of America Like Lance did.

Here is a quote I read the other day.

"If Robby wins it will be an upset of galactic proportions. It would be akin to America winning the World Cup or Jamaica winning the bobsled competition -- it just shouldn’t happen, but it might."


Just a couple note, my .02 and a question.
Note: Fly7, thanks for the best coverage (incl the blog). All of the new and old internet sources failed to provide relative, clear and updated information for DAKAR.
My .02: The DAKAR is the biggest, baddest in the world, period. The desert offroad races in our neck of the woods are great and we are lucky to be close to the action.
Question: Are our races now tuneups for bigger races, depending on your budget?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Just a couple note, my .02 and a question.
Note: Fly7, thanks for the best coverage (incl the blog). All of the new and old internet sources failed to provide relative, clear and updated information for DAKAR.
My .02: The DAKAR is the biggest, baddest in the world, period. The desert offroad races in our neck of the woods are great and we are lucky to be close to the action.
Question: Are our races now tuneups for bigger races, depending on your budget?


Thanks for the compliment. I was hoping all the links would be helpful and glad you liked it. I have got at least tons of e-mails from all over the World and ALL have been positive.

As for this statement; "The DAKAR is the biggest, baddest in the world, period. " No Doubt!!!! I under estimated the support you need when you need it. It can't be finished without one or two dedicated T-4s period! Much less win the thing. Klaus' concerns were spot on in this aspect. I have no idea what happened with the Leased T-4 entry.

I don't understand your last question;;;;?

[ChuckH]

DAKAR is ok but not great, you need lots of logistics but that doesn't make it the best race to me, for one thing the rules are limiting somewhat, 10 inch travel cars don't excite me, yeah RGs buggy-truck was cool but its kind of the exception.

If they opened the rules so you could have TT and Class 1 type cars it would be more interesting to me.

Watching the cars flounder in the dunes today didnt make for good TV

Just my .02

[DUMP!]

ChuckH

"If they opened the rules so you could have TT and Class 1 type cars it would be more interesting to me."


FLY, Maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't believe that RG had to adhear to any wheel travel rules running in the two wheel drive catogory, right????

If that is so really the only rules that would limit a current TT from competing in the T2 class would be three things that I can think of off the top of my pointed head.

Those would be:

1)Body / 2)Cockpit.

A current TT would need a fully developed body that from a overhead view would not allow you to be able to see any mechanical part of the chassis. (That is why all buggies etc have full bodies). also the cockpit would need to be fully inclosed. IE- windshield and side windows etc.

3)Engine intake restrictor.

If that is all that would be required to make changes too, then I think it would be a relitivly easy changeover to make a TT leagle to race Dakar.

Dump

[Brad Falin]

I thought the rules were opened up this year for class one cars, I do not think the wheel travel rule applied to these vehciles. If the rule applied they should of had to run a 33" tire unless your in the truck class, just asking, you would have to get better mileage to take a trophy truck

[Offspring]

19P2 LATE AT TIME CONTROL BEFORE THE START OF A SELECTIVE SECTION
All checking-in late at a CH (time control) preceding the start of
a selective section will be penalised by a minute per minute.
Competitors more than 30 minutes late will be awarded the day’s fixed penalty. In all cases, a new start time will be given and the competitor
must reach the end of the day’s leg following the race itinerary.

Am I reading this right?

If Robby showed up 1 hour late to the start he could have started. The ASO extended the start of stage 8 by one hour to 1:00PM. If Robby showed up at 1:59 he should have been able to start.


I thought the DQ was for not finishing stage 7, or reaching the end of the days stage transfer section after the timed section in time? I think whether or not he got to the starting line the next day in time was kind of a mute point. Perhaps I got it all screwed up.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

The restrictor is the main issue with using a TT is NO Power to make it work right.

Go to the blog and click on the ProPower link. They are running a super light Pro Truck but only have about 300hp.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I thought the DQ was for not finishing stage 7, or reaching the end of the days stage transfer section after the timed section in time? I think whether or not he got to the starting line the next day in time was kind of a mute point. Perhaps I got it all screwed up.

If you don't complete a stage: you get a penalty. But can start the next day.

[cabo500]

I don't understand your last question;;;;?

My fault. I attended the DAKAR press conference prior to the Best In The Desert McMillin Nevada 1000 in Las Vegas last year, when the ASO announced they had adjusted the rules to allow North American Race teams to compete. I spoke briefly with the ASO head who intimated that the move announced by ASO was akin to opening up an arms race.

He wanted DAKAR to become a new 'field of competition' for teams from here in the states. He also acknowledged that such a new field, would change the landscape more here, in the short term, than over there. He said that because DAKAR was a seasoned event, the field would change, with American teams in the hunt, in the long term, 'over there'. The Europeans are set in their ways.

Now, seeing the '06 event so far, my question had to do with, whether the bigger teams would now open up new equipment budgets- sponsor needs-and set forth plans to more regularly compete in DAKAR and use such series as SCORE and BEST, less so CORR, as annual programs of equipment & sponsor development to play overseas. Since, many of the large teams look at such races as the Baja 1000 & the Nevada 1000 as challenging, but not ULTIMATE challenges. The Baja 1000 is the Ultimate for the majority of us.

And our local offroad races, being 'sectionals'. With $$$, rather than winning, being the key factor to get into the bigger 'tournaments'. Offroad, has long ago gone international. There are some very talented pilots in our neighbor countries, Mexico, Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

DAKAR kind of being, the Olympics of Offroad. Thats the question, as a proposed thought. (?) Really enjoying the threads here, thanks Klaus.

[ChuckH]

Restricting our motors to about half the power we run here isn't exactly opening it up for our cars, the reason why they didnt really open it up is because if we started going over there in numbers we would blow them away ( if they kept there present cars )

I don't see how he thinks letting our hobbled cars race there will change anything here.

When going fast over natural terrain we have the fastest cars in the world, were the F1 of dirt.

[Brad Falin]

Turbochargers do not care about restricter plates, so just twin turbo a trophy truck and watch the transmissions fly, imagine the truggy with 35lbs of boost. You would need to build a powerstroke or duramax or cummins trophy truck for Dakar, you would get some fuel economy and turbos to boot.

[tractoR]

Restricting our motors to about half the power we run here isn't exactly opening it up for our cars, the reason why they didnt really open it up is because if we started going over there in numbers we would blow them away ( if they kept there present cars )



Not quite so. The power (intake size) restiction applies to all categories, and the categories with the bigger engines can have a lot bigger restictor. The minimum weight to capacity requirements also favors the bigger engines somehow, with a possibly bigger power-to-weight ratio.
The whole point of restricting power is not for giving more advantage/ disadvantage to one category or another, but to slow down the cars. Same goes for wheel travel restriction (that came in later).
Actually a lot of people see the current regulation being in favor of big engine, 2WD buggies. Up to 30% less weight, unlimited travel and integrated suspension systems.

[tractoR]

Turbochargers do not care about restricter plates, so just twin turbo a trophy truck and watch the transmissions fly, imagine the truggy with 35lbs of boost. You would need to build a powerstroke or duramax or cummins trophy truck for Dakar, you would get some fuel economy and turbos to boot.

Supercharged gas engines are practically not allowed. That is, anything bigger that 1333cc is out of the race, with a "supercharged" calculated capacity of 2 liters. (turbo) diesels have the same "supercharged" capacity coefficient of 1.5, so that the 2.5 TDI VWs (undisclosed power ?) are actually racing in the 3500-3750cc weight reqs. whereas the 4.0 (270hp "official" power) mitsubishis are in the immediate next category up and -only- 80lbs heavier.

[ChuckH]

Not quite so. The power (intake size) restiction applies to all categories, and the categories with the bigger engines can have a lot bigger restictor. The minimum weight to capacity requirements also favors the bigger engines somehow, with a possibly bigger power-to-weight ratio.
The whole point of restricting power is not for giving more advantage/ disadvantage to one category or another, but to slow down the cars. Same goes for wheel travel restriction (that came in later).
Actually a lot of people see the current regulation being in favor of big engine, 2WD buggies. Up to 30% less weight, unlimited travel and integrated suspension systems.

Welcome to race desert

Yeah there slow compared to our cars :D im not sure thats a good thing ;) :)

On paper Gordon has an advantage and if they really opened it up to our cars like they claimed, well i think you know what would happen.

[ChuckH]

One more thing.

They say they want US racers to come over there, But then they give Gordon 35th starting order, if your a rally driver or with VW ectra you start up front, but a top racer from the states in a American car gets no respect.

[Chase 2]

One more thing.

They say they want US racers to come over there, But then they give Gordon 35th starting order, if your a rally driver or with VW ectra you start up front, but a top racer from the states in a American car gets no respect.

Respect is earned, especially with the Euros. I'm pretty sure that your starting position on the first day (like it makes that much difference) is determined by seeding from the last year’s finish. I believe that teams are seeded as well as drivers, RG had a better start position than Ronn Bailey. Starting 9th didn’t hurt Mark Miller.

Renaults, Porsche, Citron, and others had some real high tech stuff in the years past, but much of what they had was regulated out. BMW had neat bikes but the rules changed and now running twins is history. This is FIA/ASO this ain’t SCORE or BID. If you are going to play in their game you play by their rules. So they don’t have a TT class, I guess you just have to build something that fits their rules and show them who the better driver and navigator is, if possible. The Schlesser cars seem to work pretty well, Bailey’s car isn’t a POS either. We might have the F1s of dirt but this ain't an F1 race, regulation wise this is more like Nascar and you can't run an F1 in Nascar.

[ChuckH]

If RG hasn't done enough to earn some respect then their whack, Miller starting where he did shows where there priorities are, Euro teams and Euros.

[NIKAL]

This is FIA/ASO this ain’t SCORE or BID. If you are going to play in their game you play by their rules. So they don’t have a TT class, I guess you just have to build something that fits their rules and show them who the better driver and navigator is, if possible. The Schlesser cars seem to work pretty well, Bailey’s car isn’t a POS either. We might have the F1s of dirt but this ain't an F1 race, regulation wise this is more like Nascar and you can't run an F1 in Nascar.

The Schlesser cars and Bailey's car are Jimco's. Jimco narrowed the wheel track a few inches to meet FIA/ASO rules but the wheel travel is about the same as the Class 1/10 cars. I believe Schlesser won a stage this year also. It's not that the Americans can't win and that our cars and trucks can't win. It's the fact that we have not been over there much and we Americans dont know how to play by there rules "Yet". Like Chase2 said our cars and trucks are the F1 of the dirt. We build our cars to go 1000 miles fast and fuel milage has never been an issue. Over there you have to go over 6000 miles and you can only gas and pit in there designated spots. Our chase trucks go down the highways and pit were ever they feel (Baja). Their your support is on the course behind you. Dakar might be a off-road race, but it is a differant breed. With American drivers like Robby Gordon, Mark Miller and Darren Skilton going over there and racing with sucsess. It will only be a matter of time when American teams going over to race Dakar will be a regular deal and we will be expected to be contenders for the overall win.

[Chase 2]

If RG hasn't done enough to earn some respect then their whack, Miller starting where he did shows where there priorities are, Euro teams and Euros.
RG is getting there, the fact that many worship him here in the states means nothing to them. Mark starting where he did has to do with where the VW team finished last year, not where the team is from.

It will only be a matter of time when American teams going over to race Dakar will be a regular deal...
But Americans have been going over for years. We’ve had some pretty big names run Dakar and some like Danny La Port have done very well. Malcolm Smith and Curt Leduc have been there (and didn’t go back). Look at the Arciero/Miller team’s long term goals. I think we can safely say that RG has the same long term goal, he just (in a very RG way) doesn’t have the patients to wait until he’s totally ready. We will have Americans winning.

This is a RALLY race, stage racing, people this is not Baja. The terrain is different; the sand is nothing like what we have. The sand at Glamis is much coarser grained and firmer as compared to the vast ergs of dunes in Africa. You have to navigate through and around them. RG found out what happens when you go flying blindly over them.

[ChuckH]

Its also clear that being a top driver in the dez here means nothing to them, oh but if your a rally driver you get respect, or drive for VW, what is more like dakar, rally or Baja...!!

worshiping him has nothing to do with it, its RG record in the dez that should mean more than a rally drivers experience

just my 2 cents about things, at this point we will just have to agree to disagreeing :D

[klaus]

VW gets lots of ink because they concentrate on marketing better then other teams. They are also capable of investing more cash into this race then RG did and ever will. That's why they are on TV. They produce multiple Press Releases per day in regards to the Dakar race. The Media prints 1.What they get their hands on 2.What pays them.

In my opinion the ASO is a fine organization that takes no BS from no one and doesn't bend the rules to please anyone. That's what it looks like at least looking from thousands of miles away.

Like some of you said we shall not overlook that its a race in a different country and culture, different terrain, different rules yet its the next closest sport/event to SCORE style desert racing. How would we feel if Jutta Kleinschmidt would show up at the San Felipe 250 and trying to smoke the field and then back it up with bolt statements. We wouldn't give the team high odds of finishing well. Same applies to RG in Dakar and its expected.

I still like the idea of bringing some of our ideas over there and see if they apply. Same for typical European Marathon Teams to come race here and apply there bag of tricks to Baja.

[Chase 2]

Very well said Klaus.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Respect is earned, especially with the Euros. I'm pretty sure that your starting position on the first day (like it makes that much difference) is determined by seeding from the last year’s finish. I believe that teams are seeded as well as drivers, RG had a better start position than Ronn Bailey. Starting 9th didn’t hurt Mark Miller.

Renaults, Porsche, Citron, and others had some real high tech stuff in the years past, but much of what they had was regulated out. BMW had neat bikes but the rules changed and now running twins is history. This is FIA/ASO this ain’t SCORE or BID. If you are going to play in their game you play by their rules. So they don’t have a TT class, I guess you just have to build something that fits their rules and show them who the better driver and navigator is, if possible. The Schlesser cars seem to work pretty well, Bailey’s car isn’t a POS either. We might have the F1s of dirt but this ain't an F1 race, regulation wise this is more like Nascar and you can't run an F1 in Nascar.

Good point HummBuggy boy! :)

[FlyHiFlyLo]

I'm not going to post anything on the Blog today for respect to Andy.

They do like Robby over there. They gave him lots of freedom to get his car over there and Bring what Robby wanted to bring. Robby will be back.

Robby Gordon is Mr. Trial by Fire. In fact Robby didn't even know what the car wieghed till they weighed it to put it on the plane. Robby and crew learned way more than just the obvious stuff. Can't wait for round two! Ding Ding!

It's not a shame by no means as to what the end result was either. Sure we talk a ton of Crap! But when it is all said and done, THEY WILL GET THEIR ***** KICKED!

Go Blais! Go USA!

[down4glamis]

these are some great posts, w/ sum great points. i enjoy reading them, and reading your responses. im not really into dakar, as much as jumping on the bandwagon as gordon/skilton are over there.

last year skilton and barry thompson raced in a kia(?). im not sure how they placed, but it shows americans have been trying. lol i also remeber seeing the pictures of the 6-8wheeled behemoth that leduc put on its side.

but all in all, i thought robby was gonna come out and upset the aso/fia by taking a win and getting an overall. i was very hopefull, as im sure all americans were compared to all the euro's who were very skeptical. just shows we have confidence, and just need more time to show wat we can do anywhere around the world IMHO...

[tractoR]

Guys, racing is not about "kicking some ****" or show who is is "the top driver" or about who builds "the F1 of desert". Its about development, experience, trial and error, making mistakes, etc. and so forth. Surely US offroad racing scene is bigger and faster than the european scene, as is a 100x bigger industry as a whole, but what makes your trucks so fast has been banned already : I'm speaking about long travel suspension and big engines, you name it. The regulations are more encourageing for 2WDs right now because of the historic superior results of 4WDs. The big teams like Citroen was, Mitsubishi and VW are, probably had enough money, talent, and curiosity to study, use or buy american offroad technology, as well as inventing and re-inventing things. Schlesser has been using american ideas and technology for many years, and won a couple of times. Mitsubishi has been professionally developing the current version of their evo pajero for at least 3 years, and has been winning the race and championships for 15 years. Peterhansel has been won the race half a dozen times (or more ?) on bike and trucks. Vice-versa, the exact same resoning holds true for any top dog european racer coming to the american offroad races. I would love to know what mitsubishi and VW think about 2WD long travel vs. 4WD short travel. VW would have an obvious marketing problem developing a 2WD truck, and probably has a lack of long-term experience somewhat, but I would bet mitsubishi (if they keep their effort going as they always did) has some secret ideas for a 2WD, if the need arises either from the competition, or regulations.

[ChuckH]

looks like i stirred the pot with Dakar, love all the quantifications. ;) :D

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Guys, racing is not about "kicking some ****" or show who is is "the top driver"

Yes it is.

Beer Cans and Frito lay! You wait and see Pierre

[ChuckH]

The Euros are just upset that lance won the last 7 tours and have made themselves believe racing isn't about winning.

i don't think Americans got that memo, or VW with their 30 cars entered in Dakar.

Just joking, its all good.

[dezracer9]

i just want to say the dakar race isn't the same to me without robby in it!! i have been and wil always be a robby gordon fan no matter what he drives. i take nothing but crap from people that are nascar fans---about being a rg fan--but who cares!! i can't think of a more well rounded driver...seems he'll try anything and won't give up!! i was just hoping he would do better but experience and knowing the terrain is what matters in dakar. rock on rg!!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

i just want to say the dakar race isn't the same to me without robby in it!! i have been and wil always be a robby gordon fan no matter what he drives. i take nothing but crap from people that are nascar fans---about being a rg fan--but who cares!! i can't think of a more well rounded driver...seems he'll try anything and won't give up!! i was just hoping he would do better but experience and knowing the terrain is what matters in dakar. rock on rg!!

Ditto. Gas On!

[Icewalker]

Man this has been a great thread - had to go back to work for a few so missed the last day or two.

A couple of points that were bought up - as far as the technology goes - yes alot of it has been regulated out of the Dakar - which is probably why we aren't seeing things like the Porsche 959 or any of the modified peugot, Renault, etc Rally supercars - you know those ones they were the ones that weighed as much as a bag of Frito's but had 800 bhp on tap and long travel suspension and good (relatively speaking) fuel mileage. Don't forget that limiting the H3's power output had as much to do with fuel economy and longevity as it did with regulations. There's only so much you can do with an old overhead valve design.

FWIW my feeling is that if the Factory teams came over on mass to run the Baja it would end up spoiling it. How long would it be before say Toyota were turning up with a Tundra that had an F1 engine shoehorned into it.

My 10 cents on Team America going to the Dakar would be - bring RG back for next year in the new improved H3, Get Jeep in on the act and perhaps one of the Cadillacs get some more Baja drivers over there maybe get some US rally drivers to go over as well.

On the whole Baja being a run up for bigger races - I don't buy it. Baja stands on its own as one of if not the toughest off road race in the world. What would be really cool would be for SCORE to up the ante and come up with a Baja 5000 or whatever and get some decent coverage of the events on OLN or wherever. I'm probably in the minority on this but damnnnnnnn 1/2 hour of Dakar or if we're lucky an hour of Baja followed by 10 hours of professional bull riding ??????

Jeff

[Chase 2]

I am in full agreement with TractorR with one exception, kicking a** is pretty rewarding. LOL

[cabo500]

Man this has been a great thread - had to go back to work for a few so missed the last day or two.

On the whole Baja being a run up for bigger races - I don't buy it. Baja stands on its own as one of if not the toughest off road race in the world. What would be really cool would be for SCORE to up the ante and come up with a Baja 5000 or whatever and get some decent coverage of the events on OLN or wherever. I'm probably in the minority on this but damnnnnnnn 1/2 hour of Dakar or if we're lucky an hour of Baja followed by 10 hours of professional bull riding ??????

Jeff

Great idea! How about a REAL BAJA 2000. Tijuana to Mexicali. The HARD way, via CABO. Down and back.

Found this: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=10502

Did anyone else see the Official DAKAR 2005 DVD?
Its worth it just for the "Piece of S***!" comment,
from RG, talking about his VW. Classic ;)

[Sideways]

Icewalker brings up a good point.

In the 80's the factories had some nasty cars. Lancia Stratos, Audi Quattro, Porsche 959 4WD. Mega horse power and suspension. They banned them because of safety issues as I remember. Look'em up on the net if you've never seen one.

Schlesser's won the Dakar in an American based chassis using a American (Ford) engine. Other Americans are trying and have tried to win in Euro cars.

The activity on this board has dropped dramatically since RG dropped out. why?

What we're missing is an American driver winning in an American made pakage, RG, etc.

Don't fool yourself that American Baja Technology is the state of the art. VW, BMW, Mitsbishi and others run Tubbed cars and still do well. Somone mentioned before, it's so they can identify with their target market better. We're Blacksmiths compared to what the factories can put out!

RG's H3, while very cool, is like a NASCAR version of a Taurus. Closer to our dreams than reality.

RG can slip back in next year, with lessons learned, and beat them before they wake up.

Someone recently said that "The game is to see how slow you can go and still win the race"

My 2 cents, off to work.

[Icewalker]

Looks as though there are going to be new Land Rovers running next year

http://rovering.squarespace.com/journal/2006/1/9/world-exclusive-next-generation-bowlers-for-2007-dakar-rally.html

Wonder if Ford/Land Rover will be pumping some cash into this ?

Jeff

[Alliturken]

RG will win the Dakar at some point, because he has the ability. Without the roll last year in the VW, he had a chance even then, though the Touareg was not quite up to the Mitsu standards. But it could take some time to properly develop the "Hummer", and I hope they stay commited to the program for as long as it takes. Already Hummer has had a pretty big marketing win with it this year, even with the DNF: By all accounts Robby and the Hummer were a crowd favorite, and on a Eurosport UK poll, it was voted coolest looking vehicle in the race. Pictures of it are all over the place, even on some of the Euro news stories about Caldecott's death. Hummer/GM badly needs some new demand outside the US if they are going to survive. Ford should take note, too. Both are over-reliant on the US market, and US racing.

As has been said already, no doubt a 2wd buggy configuration can win it. But the current configuration will have to be re-thought out before next year. A TT with half the HP and half the travel is a little like mounting a prop engine on an F16...the strengths are essentially eliminated. The engine is so choked by the restrictor, he's giving up a lot of its top speed, and the suspension is too soft for the amount of travel and heavier weight. But I think they'll figure it out. I'm already excited to see the next attempt. I'm sure he knows it could take a couple of years to get it right.

We can have fun talking about "going over and kicking Euro butt", and no doubt RG will do it; but when it comes to racing, and the auto-making business in general, the fact is not only Europe but also Japan generally kicks US butt pretty soundly, across the board, (LeMans Corvettes excepted). US braun isn't much match for Euro/Japan auto methodology/strategy/management right now. And in areas like Baja racing, it probably doesn't matter if we have an advantage or not. There is no demand anywhere in the world for large V8 trucks. Only here. I doubt the Euro/Japan makers are super-interested in winning Baja vs. Dakar, (besides, Baja gets next to no world press coverage, and only a tiny bit here in the US). But the US automakers would be smart to build something that could win Dakar (in a race trim). A hot little V6 Jeep, Chevy or Ford, would certainly sell cars for them in Europe where they have dismal market share. The WRC Focus had a major impact on Ford Europe's sales of that car. Even that effort would not have happened without the insistence of the Ford Europe execs. Props to Hummer for making this commitment to performing on the world stage. Hopefully they get it right, and the others follow suit. Can't wait 'til next year. And in the meantime, go Mark Miller, go Chris Blais and Jonah Street.

[Chase 2]

Waaaaay too much emphasis is being put on equipment around here. There is a reason Peterhansel is winning, and it doesn’t have that much to do with what he’s driving. Sure the Hummbuggy got a lot of attention, (so did the Condor motorhome at the mint 400) but it was driver error that planted it into the camel grass. Peterhansel doesn’t make the mistake of flying over the crests of the dunes planting the nose in a bush. He knows how to read the terrain of Africa like we know how to read the dez in Baja. Perhaps Ryan could chime in, but I believe we have nothing like the ergs of Africa. The sand type, the shape, and configuration of the dunes are nothing like we have here. The Dakar IMHO is more about who makes the fewest mistakes than how trick his equipment is.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Waaaaay too much emphasis is being put on equipment around here. There is a reason Peterhansel is winning, and it doesn’t have that much to do with what he’s driving. Sure the Hummbuggy got a lot of attention, (so did the Condor motorhome at the mint 400) but it was driver error that planted it into the camel grass. Peterhansel doesn’t make the mistake of flying over the crests of the dunes planting the nose in a bush. He knows how to read the terrain of Africa like we know how to read the dez in Baja. Perhaps Ryan could chime in, but I believe we have nothing like the ergs of Africa. The sand type, the shape, and configuration of the dunes are nothing like we have here. The Dakar IMHO is more about who makes the fewest mistakes than how trick his equipment is.


Who hasn't nose planted their car in the top ten? Everyone has had issues. I'm realizing it's all about recovery time, because YOU WILL HAVE ISSUES IN AFRICA.
Only a Moron like Robby would be stupid to launch the dunes?

[ChuckH]

I have looked at the pictures of the dunes there and they look like ours in shape and every other way, i don't see anything different, from the TV it also looks like cars behave the same as here.

http://www.wanadoo.mg/medias/img/SGE.AAR26.090105194544.photo01.quicklook.default-245x162.jpg

[Chase 2]

I have looked at the pictures of the dunes there and they look like ours in shape and every other way, i don't see anything different, from the TV it also looks like cars behave the same as here.

The grain size is much smaller. When was the last time you saw a motorcycle burry its front wheel completly in the sand like it fell into a hole? And when the rider falls off his arm burries up to his shoulder?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

The grain size is much smaller. When was the last time you saw a motorcycle burry its front wheel completly in the sand like it fell into a hole? And when the rider falls off his arm burries up to his shoulder?

Are you talking about yesterday's OLN coverage? Man that was crazy!

[ChuckH]

His arms buried to his shoulder !!! a little exaggeration there huh, a steep dune is soft, the dunes in north vegas are pretty soft and will eat a wheel easy

Come on... i have watched TV and seen pictures and have been to dunes in most western states, including in the gulf coast where the sand is a smaller grain.

Dunes is Dunes.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

His arms buried to his shoulder !!! a little exaggeration there huh, a steep dune is soft, the dunes in north vegas are pretty soft and will eat a wheel easy

Come on... i have watched TV and seen pictures and have been to dunes in most western states, including in the gulf coast where the sand is a smaller grain.

Dunes is Dunes.


Moon Dust?

[Chase 2]

Who hasn't nose planted their car in the top ten? Everyone has had issues. I'm realizing it's all about recovery time, because YOU WILL HAVE ISSUES IN AFRICA.
Only a Moron like Robby would be stupid to launch the dunes?

First let me say I would never call one of these drivers a moron and I didn't say anyone was stupid.

Second I think it's about time you started realizing some of what’s really going on at the Dakar rather than posting supposition and innuendo in your blog, like RG burning up his clutch helping Mark.

In your pic you have absolutely no idea how fast that Mitsubishi is going, and where the front wheels are going to land. Did you ever think that perhaps he is using a technique that is keeping him from high centering on the dune? Much different than launching.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/Chase2/34b16488.jpg

[Chase 2]

His arms buried to his shoulder !!! a little exaggeration there huh, a steep dune is soft, the dunes in north vegas are pretty soft and will eat a wheel easy

Come on... i have watched TV and seen pictures and have been to dunes in most western states, including in the gulf coast where the sand is a smaller grain.

Dunes is Dunes.

No really his arm buried up to his shoulder.

Being a Professional Geologist it’s quite possible that I see a difference where you don't. Perhaps those who do well in the dunes also see those differences and know how to use them to their advantage. Those who see dunes are dunes are left to get stuck and lost.

[ChuckH]

Yeah im an idiot

Having spent 100s of hours in dunes means nothing,

fresh blown dunes are a little softer (newly moved)

But what do i know, im an idiot.

[Kirk_Babbington]

Chase 2 is right, while I'm not a professional geologist, I have taken a few geology classes at UNLV and grain size differs greatly due to wind and terrain. You can tell how small the grain size is because there is no float on the dunes, they just sink in. Did anyone see the Volkswagen (I think) in the 'bowl' and had to drive around in circles to get enough speed to get out? That terrain looks like hell on earth!!!

[ChuckH]

Grain size is also affected by where the sand came from, like sand from the ocean, thats why gulf coast sand is a really fine grain, but funny thing is gulf coast sand is very much like the sand at dumont when it comes to driving in it.

The Volkswagen driving in circles would have happened the same way at dumont.

Jeez have you guys drove different vehicles in sand to know how they react, they dont teach that in class.

[racinteach]

the other issue was the tire deflation devices were not allowed in the 4wd classes correct? so they may not have stopped to air down like in previous races where they would air down and keep driving to air back up...just a thought? maybe there were just hoping on raw horse power to get out of it..

[Alliturken]

Dunes is dunes seems like a pretty big home-spun assumption. Let's ask Blais or Grider about that when they get back here. Or RG or Mark or Ronn.

Peterhansel is obviously no slouch as a driver or navigator, but I don't think there can be much doubt that the Mitsu effort is and has been a dynasty, that car just floats over the nasty fine-grained stuff better than the others. It should, with all those years of development. They have something figured out, not to mention the use of that Australian-made air-adjust-on-the-fly suspension/sway system they have been using the last couple of years, (they may still have some kind of competition exclusive on that, not sure). The Mitsu has made every driver who gets in it better than they would be otherwise, including Alphand, Roma, Masuoka. I'd bet some of them would even say that. If we think tricked out development of the equipment doesn't matter a lot, we lose from the start, in pretty much any kind of racing, from Karting on up. Americans are able to do it as well as anyone, but it takes time and method. The days of a gung ho cowboy with inferior tools going over and slaying all were last seen 40 years ago or so. We still dream about it, nothing wrong with that. With properly developed stuff, no reason RG or someone else from here can't win Dakar within a year or 3. :)

[Chase 2]

Grain size is also affected by where the sand came from, like sand from the ocean, thats why gulf coast sand is a really fine grain, but funny thing is gulf coast sand is very much like the sand at dumont when it comes to driving in it.

The Volkswagen driving in circles would have happened the same way at dumont.

Jeez have you guys drove different vehicles in sand to know how they react, they dont teach that in class.

Well, like the last you disagreed with me I’ll just say that we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not calling you an idiot, I’m say that with my 37 years of driving off-road along with my geologic education and field studies, I can tell a difference. That is not an attempt to put you down or build me up. Some people can read Braille some people see little bumps. There’s an old saying that goes something like this: The Eskimos have over 100 words to describe snow, the Hawaiians have one.

[Alliturken]

Dunes is dunes seems like a pretty big home-spun assumption. Let's ask Blais or Grider about that when they get back here. Or RG or Mark or Ronn.

Peterhansel is obviously no slouch as a driver or navigator, but I don't think there can be much doubt that the Mitsu effort is and has been a dynasty, that car just floats over the nasty fine-grained stuff better than the others. It should, with all those years of development. They have something figured out, not to mention the use of that Australian-made air-adjust-on-the-fly suspension/sway system they have been using the last couple of years, (they may still have some kind of competition exclusive on that, not sure). The Mitsu has made every driver who gets in it better than they would be otherwise, including Alphand, Roma, Masuoka. I'd bet some of them would even say that. If we think tricked out development of the equipment doesn't matter a lot, we lose from the start, in pretty much any kind of racing, from Karting on up. Americans are able to do it as well as anyone, but it takes time and method. The days of a gung ho cowboy with inferior tools going over and slaying all were last seen 40 years ago or so. We still dream about it, nothing wrong with that. With properly developed stuff, no reason RG or someone else from here can't win Dakar within a year or 3. :)

[ChuckH]

Well, like the last you disagreed with me I’ll just say that we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not calling you an idiot, I’m say that with my 37 years of driving off-road along with my geologic education and field studies, I can tell a difference. That is not an attempt to put you down or build me up. Some people can read Braille some people see little bumps. There’s an old saying that goes something like this: The Eskimos have over 100 words to describe snow, the Hawaiians have one.

So your a Eskimo and im a Hawaiian, not a very subtle put down there, Your whole post is calling me a idiot.

Your geology deg doesn't mean squat when talking about vehicles dynamics in sand, have you seen gulf coast sand, have your drove it, sand any finner would be silt powder.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

So your a Eskimo and im a Hawaiian, not a very subtle put down there, Your whole post is calling me a idiot.

Your geology deg doesn't mean squat when talking about vehicles dynamics in sand, have you seen gulf coast sand, have your drove it, sand any finner would be silt powder.

He didn't say he had a degree. Don't assume anything that's how bad rumors start.

[ChuckH]

Dunes is dunes seems like a pretty big home-spun assumption. :)

Not a home-spun assumption there slick, its from experience driving in fine grain sand and bigger grain sand, what matters most to how soft a dune is how recent it has been built by wind.

Go drive in the dunes after 40 plus mph winds and the down wind side is very soft.

[Alliturken]

"Slick": Neat, my Gramps used to call me that when I was a little kid. I like it. :)

My point was, when it comes to the particulars of the fine African sand, we should listen to someone who has actually been in the Dakar race and experienced it first hand. Anything else IS an assumption, no matter where else you have driven, or how many hours.

I'm sure there were theorists who thought the jungles of Viet Nam were just another clump of trees, eh?

[ChuckH]

Yeah you cant tell anything by watching the cars in the sand, Not :rolleyes:

[Chase 2]

Yes, I've been through out the Gulf Coast in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Florida. I have driven in Gulf coast sediments (including Sands, Silts, and Muds). I know the difference between silts and sands. I at least walked if not driven on sand dunes in Arizona, North Carolina, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Texas, Nevada, as well as throughout California and Baja California. You right my degree doesn’t mean squat, but my experience in the dunes does.

I, like you, haven’t been in the dunes in this part of Africa. If you re-read my post I asked if Ryan could chime in regarding my dune interpretations. We are both speculating base on our own personal experiences, but you are getting upset.

I’m really sorry you think this is some sort of personal attack, it isn’t. You totally missed the whole point I was trying to make. Does the Eskimo care if the Hawaiians have only one word for snow? I doubt it. Does the Hawaiian care if the Eskimos have 100 words for snow? He’s most likely glad he doesn’t need 100 words for snow. But, if to the Hawaiian snow is snow, and he’s fine with that, does it matter that the Eskimo uses 100 words to describe it? No it doesn’t

Flame down man.

[ChuckH]

Lets review

That is not an attempt to put you down or build me up. Some people can read Braille some people see little bumps. There’s an old saying that goes something like this: The Eskimos have over 100 words to describe snow, the Hawaiians have one.


Yeah yeah, you read braille and i only see bumps, i got it awhile back.

Not an attempt to put me down huh.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/Chase2/34b16488.jpg

How could he have thought the radiator wouldn't get damaged with no protection?:eek:

[FlyHiFlyLo]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/Chase2/34b16488.jpg

How could he have thought the radiator wouldn't get damaged with no protection?:eek:


That was after the thrash repair. They had skid protection on it. What happened was the cage tubes moved and cracked the core at the tank.


What Chase is saying isn't nothing you can't just find on the internet he doesn't need a degree to repeat what Robby said a month ago:

Here it is right from Robby's mouth; (Pre Dakar Testing at Glamis)

“The terrain of the Southwest United States is similar in many respects to the conditions we’ll face overseas, so it’s an ideal place to test. The main difference between the two is that the sand is even finer in Africa than it is here, but the car ran great on every surface type and I expect we’ll be okay in the sand dunes in Africa as well.”

Robby never got stuck in the Africa sand I might add.

[Chase 2]

Lets review




Yeah yeah, you read braille and i only see bumps, i got it awhile back.

Not an attempt to put me down huh.

I don't read Braille!! LOL!!! I only see little bumps, but i'm told some people really do read those little bumps. Enough already!

[ChuckH]

Try staying on topic and stop being a richard with your put down doublespeak bullchit.

maybe you need to learn that word since you act like your not doing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak

[JrSyko]

Wow Chuck, you seem to make friends with everyone :-)

[ChuckH]

Wow Chuck, you seem to make friends with everyone :-)

Get off my case, he started that game, i know you and i have have bumped heads but this is none of your business

Unless you want to start with me too, bring it if you do.

[ChuckH]

Here it is right from Robby's mouth; (Pre Dakar Testing at Glamis)

“The terrain of the Southwest United States is similar in many respects to the conditions we’ll face overseas, so it’s an ideal place to test. The main difference between the two is that the sand is even finer in Africa than it is here, but the car ran great on every surface type and I expect we’ll be okay in the sand dunes in Africa as well.”

Robby never got stuck in the Africa sand I might add.

Yeah i just don't get how some people think dakar is like driving on Mars or something, its not the "boogieman desert" they make it out to be, it being so long is the hard part.

[Kirk_Babbington]

Yeah i just don't get how some people think dakar is like driving on Mars or something, its not the "boogieman desert" they make it out to be, it being so long is the hard part.

That and the fact that they cannot use GPS units for navigational purposes, its all on paper notes now. I dont know how those bikers use that roll system.

[BAJACATDIESEL]

I heard on the ole xm yesterday that Robby was in 1rst gear and doing less than 20 mph when he crested the dune and hit da camel grass . I would have imagined Robby doing a major nose plant .

[NIKAL]

That was after the thrash repair. They had skid protection on it. What happened was the cage tubes moved and cracked the core at the tank.


No disrespect Fly but I dont think there ever was a skid plate there. This picture is from day 1 and I dont see a skid plate.

[ShaneR]

I would have to agree that you don't see a skid plate or any protection for the radiator when he was testing it at Glamis either? Possible thought that with no contact driving they didn't need it?

[CharlieIII]

A valuble lesson learned if that was the case.

[dezracer9]

after listening to mark millers audio update i am sure this has to be one of the major reasons rg decided to do his own project for this years dakar..playing the team orders thing has to kinda suck especially if you have a great chance of doing better. hopefully maybe he can put a 2 0or 3 car deal together for next year and do better...just my.02

[FlyHiFlyLo]

after listening to mark millers audio update i am sure this has to be one of the major reasons rg decided to do his own project for this years dakar..playing the team orders thing has to kinda suck especially if you have a great chance of doing better. hopefully maybe he can put a 2 0or 3 car deal together for next year and do better...just my.02

I'm sure that part wasn't fun last year. He said that he was in positons many times that would have resulted in great stage results only to have Jutta in need. Plus sitting in the middle of Africa waiting for parts you gave away would be no fun either. I think the main reason RG came back with his own deal is he felt he could build a car on his own that would win.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

No disrespect Fly but I dont think there ever was a skid plate there. This picture is from day 1 and I dont see a skid plate.

No prob, he did run some protection when he got to Africa. (Some)

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Here is a Pic from the Blog.

[Blue Man]

Question- isn't the radiator in the rear of the car. This is a Class 1 with a Hummer body right?

[JrSyko]

Get off my case, he started that game, i know you and i have have bumped heads but this is none of your business

Unless you want to start with me too, bring it if you do.

Oh I'm shaking at my keyboard!

[klaus]

Three questions to Volkswagen Team Manager Peter Utoft

What has changed in the team since the 2005 "Dakar"?
"The number of team personnel has grown from 62 to 78. Instead of four
Volkswagen Race Touareg prototypes we have five rally cars in action. The
most important thing is that we have improved the procedures due to our
experience. The operational procedures are more detailed this year, to a
large extent they were already established before the rally, so that only
small adjustments are necessary to suit the actual circumstances during
the event.”

From the organisational point of view what is the challenge of the Dakar Rally?
"Our planning must guarantee that every team member is at the right place
at exactly the right time. For this purpose, we must distribute 78
employees in 27 vehicles, and know at the same time where each team member
is on the service-routes which are sometimes longer than 700 kilometres.”

How would you summarise events leading up to the final third of the rally?
"Although the team is larger everybody has bonded extremely well with one
another, the procedures are more routine and calm. Every team member must
work very closely together under the toughest conditions. We know from
experience that under such conditions tension can arise. However, we
succeeded in knitting the team together from the word go. The atmosphere
in the Volkswagen bivouac is still excellent.”

[mattb]

I heard on the ole xm yesterday that Robby was in 1rst gear and doing less than 20 mph when he crested the dune and hit da camel grass . I would have imagined Robby doing a major nose plant .

What channel on XM? Thanks.

[ChuckH]

Oh I'm shaking at my keyboard!

Yeah your tough behind that.

[Hemp]

on rb.com is says

"American racer Robby Gordon’s attempt to win the famed Dakar Rally in his first try as a team owner/driver came within half an hour of becoming a reality"

so isnt that saying he was within a half hour of winning the Dakar rally? How could that be true when he started having trouble on the 5th stage?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

on rb.com is says

"American racer Robby Gordon’s attempt to win the famed Dakar Rally in his first try as a team owner/driver came within half an hour of becoming a reality"

so isnt that saying he was within a half hour of winning the Dakar rally? How could that be true when he started having trouble on the 5th stage?

He still could have won stages.

[elsancho1976]

im wondering if they're making reference to the fact that he missed the start of stage 8(?) by 30 minutes

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Blog updated :)

[RacrDude]

No prob, he did run some protection when he got to Africa. (Some)

Like I said on the day it happened...that front "Bumper / Skidplate" is NO where close to "Robby Proof" ( that's not a bad thing...just a fact ). Still a Badazz lookin ride tho...I am sure there will be more protection next year. Of course...we are ALL assuming that all the "Current" parties will do this again next year.

[cabo500]

Who is Gordons suspension sponsor for 2006?

[chud]

The radiator was in the front?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

The radiator was in the front?

Yup it is.

[Racbaja]

Congrats to Miller and blaise, you made all of us U.S.A. racers proud.

[Hemp]

Who is Gordons suspension sponsor for 2006?

why do you add photos of the cabo 500 when it has nothing to do with dakar?
and this isnt the first time either

sorry if I seem mad but it feels like subliminal messaging and I am kind of tired of it. I could see if it was on topic or if you were a sponsor to the site, but this is just pathetic advertisement

[cabo500]

not intended as such. by the way, dont bogart that left handed cigarette

[Fourstroker]

why do you add photos of the cabo 500 when it has nothing to do with dakar?
and this isnt the first time either

sorry if I seem mad but it feels like subliminal messaging and I am kind of tired of it. I could see if it was on topic or if you were a sponsor to the site, but this is just pathetic advertisement

You read my mind. F...ing Annoying

[BAPerf]

not intended as such. by the way, dont bogart that left handed cigarette

That's the way, follow one bad thing with another...

[cabo500]

That's the way, follow one bad thing with another...

LOL personally don't touch the stuff, but would rather pass it on to someone not under the influence:D

[klaus]

subject is dakar, lets try to stick with it ?

[NIKAL]

On Robby's site Peter Brock has a photo journal of Robby at Dakar. There are some amazing photos. Defiantly worth looking at. This one should expain how exposed the radiator was. I understand if you block the radiator with a skid plate you will have airflow problems, and at Dakar the last thing you need is over heating problems. But I'm suprised that there was no protection. I'm guessing that issue will be solved for next year.

[partybarge_pilot]

On the subject of sand (if your not totally tuned out yet) Most of the time the sand out at glamis is pretty compacted from all the traffic. A few years ago we were out there the 2 weeks before halloween after a large wind storm. Around the normal spots it wasn't to bad, but further south out by China Wall it got really soft. I went over the bars three times from burring the front wheel. Not a fun day. Also if your out at superstition west of the intrance to the sand dam there are some really soft dunes up near the top of the mountian. Almost impassible with a knobbie. I can't even imagine trying to ride them on the tanks they ride in Dakar.

[Chase 2]

And finally, I just wanted to tell everyone that I had lunch with Fly today, where he presented me with a check for $100.00 made out to the Malcom Smith Motorsports Foundation. With great pleasure, I have forwarded the check to Malcom for the benifit of the Orphanage at Valle de Trinidad.

So let me get this straight, for $100 you'll take Rubby with a new untested team, against Mark, Dirk, and a team that even got Rubby across the line, AND youl'll give me 12 hours? I'll take that bet. Loser gives the money to Malcom Smith for the orphanage in Valle de Trinadad.

Good thinking, That's a great cause! Your on! This will be fun.

Fly is a man of his word, and it was fun.

[ShaneR]

Fly is a man of his word, and it was fun.[/QUOTE]

What is this world coming to? You two having lunch together? I just don't know what to believe anymore!!!!!
It was very cool of you two to donate the money like you did!

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

Next thing you know they'll be making a movie about you two. Humpback Desert.

[Chase 2]

Hey, I have to keep the pot stirred, don't I ??

It always was my intent to give the money to the Orpahnage. The Malcom Smith Motorsports Foundation is what is cool, how can anyone not help out such a cause?

They sent me a link with recent pics: malcolm smith foundation (http://www.malcolmsmithadventures.com/pages/5/index.htm)

[Chase 2]

Next thing you know they'll be making a movie about you two. Humpback Desert.


That is really, really, sick. How is it you thought of it??

[FlyHiFlyLo]

And finally, I just wanted to tell everyone that I had lunch with Fly today, where he presented me with a check for $100.00 made out to the Malcom Smith Motorsports Foundation. With great pleasure, I have forwarded the check to Malcom for the benifit of the Orphanage at Valle de Trinidad.





Fly is a man of his word, and it was fun.


Little crumb crunchers better get some steak and potatos for dinner one night. JK :)

Next year Beotch!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Next thing you know they'll be making a movie about you two. Humpback Desert.


He's too ugly.

[Chase 2]

He's too ugly.


Yeah but Hogwild was posting pics of you playing the piano!

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Yeah but Hogwild was posting pics of you playing the piano!


Your just mad because you don't own a thong like that.

[Hog Wild]

One minute you're friends, then you're at it again causing trouble. Which photo really represents you guys?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

One minute you're friends, then you're at it again causing trouble. Which photo really represents you guys?

On our way to lunch.

Bring it Hog Man! LOL

[Hog Wild]

Bring it Hog Man!
Ok Ok, you win. Will this cool things down?

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Ok Ok, you win. Will this cool things down?


Cheers Bro!

[Offspring]

just wanted to tell everyone that I had lunch with Fly today

You should have snapped that pencil-neck in half...lol

[FlyHiFlyLo]

You should have snapped that pencil-neck in half...lol


Alright George, now you are just starting crap.