Class3 / 3000

[tsm1mt]

A search didn't turn up a whole lot - I understand Class 3 doesn't seem to be a very popular spot in these days of center-mounted A-arms..

I'm not a SCORE member, so I don't have access to the SCORE book, but I can peruse the BITD book, which notes both a 3100 and 3000 class. 3100 is "stock" and not what I'm interested in pursuing.

The 3000 seems intriguing, though.

There's a vague little bit about the front suspension, though.

If I'm starting with a solid-axle leaf sprung vehicle, I understand I have to retain the stock front concept (I-beam, A-arm, etc) and I'll retain the solid front axle.. and the rules then say the "spring" is open, which opens the possibility of leaf springs, torsion, air-bag, coil, coil-over, etc.

I can interpret that to mean a SA leaf sprung vehicle can run a solid front end with a link suspension and coils.

I'm told SCORE Class 3 is a little clearer and at least one person has interpreted it to mean the stock mounting system must be retained (thus, no leaf front EBs, or radius arm CJs)

It's a bit of a drive for me to just go hang out at a race and poke my head under everyone's rigs, and I failed to approach Moss's and their Class 3 BBronco at Primm when I had the chance.

The only Class 3s I saw in Primm were Fords, and all running stock-style radius arms and coils. What I don't know is if that's just because only Fords felt like racing, and felt the stock setup was fine, or because nothing else can be competitive running leaf springs.

[toddz]

A search didn't turn up a whole lot - I understand Class 3 doesn't seem to be a very popular spot in these days of center-mounted A-arms..

I'm not a SCORE member, so I don't have access to the SCORE book, but I can peruse the BITD book, which notes both a 3100 and 3000 class. 3100 is "stock" and not what I'm interested in pursuing.

The 3000 seems intriguing, though.

There's a vague little bit about the front suspension, though.

If I'm starting with a solid-axle leaf sprung vehicle, I understand I have to retain the stock front concept (I-beam, A-arm, etc) and I'll retain the solid front axle.. and the rules then say the "spring" is open, which opens the possibility of leaf springs, torsion, air-bag, coil, coil-over, etc.

I can interpret that to mean a SA leaf sprung vehicle can run a solid front end with a link suspension and coils.

I'm told SCORE Class 3 is a little clearer and at least one person has interpreted it to mean the stock mounting system must be retained (thus, no leaf front EBs, or radius arm CJs)

It's a bit of a drive for me to just go hang out at a race and poke my head under everyone's rigs, and I failed to approach Moss's and their Class 3 BBronco at Primm when I had the chance.

The only Class 3s I saw in Primm were Fords, and all running stock-style radius arms and coils. What I don't know is if that's just because only Fords felt like racing, and felt the stock setup was fine, or because nothing else can be competitive running leaf springs.

There is a Blazer that races in SCORE Class 3 from Illinois (Stephen on this forum is involved with the team) and they run a leaf spring front end. I've never seen a Blazer or any other leaf spring vehicle running something other than leafs in the front in Class 3 or Class 3000 (although some have interpreted that to mean quarter-elliptics). If you have coils stock (like an EB), some interpret that to mean coilovers, since they meet the "concept".

If you'd like to see some pics of Moss's Bronco and get more technical details, there's an in-depth article on it in the latest issue of Bronco Driver magazine, which you can find at Barnes and Noble and other good bookstores.

Todd Z.

[tsm1mt]

There is a Blazer that races in SCORE Class 3 from Illinois (Stephen on this forum is involved with the team) and they run a leaf spring front end. I've never seen a Blazer or any other leaf spring vehicle running something other than leafs in the front in Class 3 or Class 3000 (although some have interpreted that to mean quarter-elliptics). If you have coils stock (like an EB), some interpret that to mean coilovers, since they meet the "concept".


So while the rules read:

Front suspension must retain the original design and concept (a-arm, struts, I-beam, etc.) as originally produced and installed for that manufacturers chassis for that year of vehicle.. Primary spring systems are open but are limited to one spring (coil, torsion bar, leaf, etc) per wheel.


which leads me to believe you could take an A-arm torsion bar truck and using the "open" spring system clause, swap to coils, I'm hearing I should stick with a leaf sprung front if that's what it left the factory with.

Hrrmm.

"7200 Mid-size truck/SUV" won't work, either, since I have a factory installed V8..

I noticed the "800" rules specifically allow a link front end - Vehicles with straight axle front ends may modify suspension configuration to utilize a four link and coil over shock system... but since my vehicle wasn't marketed as a "full size" truck, I fail that test.

I guess that would leave the TT class, or some form of Sportsman.

I'm getting a little more serious about investigating what I'd need to do to make class requirements for SCORE or BITD because the season has ended for me up here, and it's time to start plotting the winter overhaul and upgrades.

Now that I finally have most of the rig holding together, I'm driving hard enough to bring out new weaknesses.. and one of my issues is the need for a large diameter long-travel front driveshaft thanks to the rear shackle.

I'm developing clearance problems with the transmission case at full bump - which is compounded by the fact I've been racing this chassis for 7 years and things are getting fatigued and it's time for a big freshening up - the bump stops are retreating further into the frame after each race - the boxed frame is crying uncle.

Links would get rid of a lot of the driveshaft plunge, and I could go back to a more conventional slip and a smaller diameter shaft that'll clear the transmission with ease.

Ideally, I'd like whatever "solutions" I implement to be compatible with as many sanctioning bodies as possible.


If you'd like to see some pics of Moss's Bronco and get more technical details, there's an in-depth article on it in the latest issue of Bronco Driver magazine, which you can find at Barnes and Noble and other good bookstores.

Todd Z.

Thanks, Todd. I'd never noticed Bronco Driver before. I'll have to hunt a copy down.

[Brandon_Charley]

The SCORE rule book says:

"Primary coil springs are limited to one coil per wheel and must be mounted according to stock concept."

Which means that if your SUV came with coil buckets it has to keep em and if it came with c/o it has to keep em.

[roach]

you can run a coil-over shock on a truck that had coil buckets i.e. bronco. but the lower mount has to be the same, or close to, location. if it is on the beam, it has to stay on the beam, if it were on the radius arm, then it would have to sit there. i asked this question specifically to Savage knowing that the rule said "one coil per wheel" and most coil-over shocks run a dual-rate set up which is "two" coils. he gave the OK as long as the mounting method remained the same. both coils in one carrier will be considerd one spring i guess.

[jamoffroad]

i will be driving in class 3 at baja . in a old bronco . the class is full of old tech trucks but it is ripe for all the new factory sport utes and they are trying to get more racers so im sure if you keep the "factory concept" then sal and casey would let you run until you start to win or someone complains about your truck beening to far from stock. class 3 was one of the first factory classes ever and it is going to come back someday . class 3 was 4x4 short wheelbase , and 4 was long wheel base 4x4 back in the 80s when we used to race for factory teams "ford,jeep,dodge& chevy" before TT . so build your farm truck and race it but when the factorys come back it will be hard to run . good luck hope to see you at the races soon.

[toddz]

i will be driving in class 3 at baja . in a old bronco . the class is full of old tech trucks but it is ripe for all the new factory sport utes and they are trying to get more racers so im sure if you keep the "factory concept" then sal and casey would let you run until you start to win or someone complains about your truck beening to far from stock. class 3 was one of the first factory classes ever and it is going to come back someday . class 3 was 4x4 short wheelbase , and 4 was long wheel base 4x4 back in the 80s when we used to race for factory teams "ford,jeep,dodge& chevy" before TT . so build your farm truck and race it but when the factorys come back it will be hard to run . good luck hope to see you at the races soon.

Jeff:

Tell us more about the truck/team you'll be racing....... There are a number of us old Bronco nuts on this forum that are involved with racing them in one way or another.

Todd Z.

[jamoffroad]

the team is called "old horse racing " they race 2-3 bronco in a co-op . the first team 1 is the owner of a bronco shops toy and is pretty race ready , fber glass ,longer wheel base ,stripped down . team 2 loco pony is bronco orignal owner street driverthat gtes more mods for racing every year . this is their fourth try truck rebuilt each year more mods,more racey. truck now has bilstien buy pass and air pumps ,deavers . went on diet to lose weight, more horse power. they have web site called "old horse racing" check it out their are pics of trucks and last years race . the truck is very old school like racing in the 70s-80s not high tech but will be fun thats why not looking to win just finsh, "you got to finsh to win".

[toddz]

the team is called "old horse racing " they race 2-3 bronco in a co-op . the first team 1 is the owner of a bronco shops toy and is pretty race ready , fber glass ,longer wheel base ,stripped down . team 2 loco pony is bronco orignal owner street driverthat gtes more mods for racing every year . this is their fourth try truck rebuilt each year more mods,more racey. truck now has bilstien buy pass and air pumps ,deavers . went on diet to lose weight, more horse power. they have web site called "old horse racing" check it out their are pics of trucks and last years race . the truck is very old school like racing in the 70s-80s not high tech but will be fun thats why not looking to win just finsh, "you got to finsh to win".

Gotcha. I'm a member of the OHR group-saw your post last night on the forum.

Todd Z.

[irishprerunner]

be and a friend are about to statr building a class 3 also. it will be a 78 bronco. i need to get a SCORE rule book so i know all the exact rules. the biggest thing that confuses me between BITD and SCORE is. do you have to retain the factory top and bumpers for BITD? we will probably never race a SCORE or BITD race but if we are able to i would like to be able to be legal for either of the series. there is not a whole lot of info for this class, i found a few good articles on Moss but that is about it. it seems like the rules for BITD kinda contradict them selves from what i have seen racing in pictures and what there rules say, but i guess that is what happens in a small class like 3.

[irishprerunner]

you can run a coil-over shock on a truck that had coil buckets i.e. bronco. but the lower mount has to be the same, or close to, location. if it is on the beam, it has to stay on the beam, if it were on the radius arm, then it would have to sit there. i asked this question specifically to Savage knowing that the rule said "one coil per wheel" and most coil-over shocks run a dual-rate set up which is "two" coils. he gave the OK as long as the mounting method remained the same. both coils in one carrier will be considerd one spring i guess.


so you can get rid of the actual coil bucket and run whatever lengh coil-over that you can fit in there?

[irishprerunner]

the first team 1 is the owner of a bronco shops toy and is pretty race ready , fber glass ,longer wheel base ,stripped down . ".


i did not think you were allowed to stretch the wheelbase.

[Chris_Wilson]

I'm no class 3 expert but it seems, despite the sucess of the Moss solid front axle
bronco, that an 80-96 TTB bronco ought to be able to outrun any solid axle class 3.

[irishprerunner]

you are correct chris that should be the case. the reason we are building a 78 is simply because we already have the truck with a good motor, tranny, axles, ect... i think where Moss has had great success is the fact that there just aren't many people willing to race class 3 and he always finishes the races.

[tsm1mt]

be and a friend are about to statr building a class 3 also. it will be a 78 bronco. i need to get a SCORE rule book so i know all the exact rules. the biggest thing that confuses me between BITD and SCORE is. do you have to retain the factory top and bumpers for BITD? we will probably never race a SCORE or BITD race but if we are able to i would like to be able to be legal for either of the series. there is not a whole lot of info for this class, i found a few good articles on Moss but that is about it. it seems like the rules for BITD kinda contradict them selves from what i have seen racing in pictures and what there rules say, but i guess that is what happens in a small class like 3.

Sounds like you're in a very similar spot to me.

I've been campaigning a ~1977 Scout II in smaller venues for 7 years. Car is in need of a bunch of TLC, and I'm trying to decide what the next batch of "upgrades" should be, and would like to have the option to run BITD/SCORE should the opportunity arise.


I, too, noted that BITD wants me to retain the factory top.

If I wanted to be particularly competitive, I'd probably pick a different platform, but racing, wheeling, & daily driving a Scout is part of my "thing" now. Even the hauler is an IH. Besides, they keep rumoring that IH is toying with the idea of bringing back the Scout.. and maybe they want to repeat their 1977 Class 3 win and need a driver? :D


the class is full of old tech trucks but it is ripe for all the new factory sport utes and they are trying to get more racers so im sure if you keep the "factory concept" then sal and casey would let you run until you start to win or someone complains about your truck beening to far from stock. class 3 was one of the first factory classes ever and it is going to come back someday .

When you put the "factory concept" in quotes, just which version of "concept" are you implying? :D

What I would LIKE to do, is retain the "factory concept" of a solid front axle 4x4, and update it with a 5-link and coil-overs (or whatever you'd like to call a 4-link + panhard, which is likely a necessity thanks to the oil pan and driveshaft making any "V"d link system difficult, leaving the 5-link or radius arms + trackbar as primary options).

Or would you mean the "concept" of leaf springs and a solid axle.. in which case a 4-link and floating leaves (ick) or 1/4 eliptical might retain the "concept" unless by "factory concept" it means "axle located and sprung in the same fashion as the factory".. which would mean the axle must be *located* by the leaf spring, and there's no need to think on this any further. :D

The rear suspension is pretty clear about being "open" so long as I don't go from my solid rear axle to an IRS.. so a 4-link and coil-overs would be fine out back.

As far as winning a few times and bringing out the complainers, I doubt I'll ever be in a position to be repeatably competitive in BITD or SCORE (assuming I can even be competitive). The races are all just too far from home, and I'm not independently wealthy. I race for the fun of it, and bragging rights. The best I could hope for would be one or two far-from-home races a year, if that. There's usually plenty of short-course stuff closer to home to run, anyhow.

I could just change camps and decide to run an EB or 78/79 BB or even smarter yet, a TTB 80-96 BBronco (which seems to be the latest rage here - we're only 15 years behind the south-west in race technology).. that would get me a coil'd front end, and the open rear.. but I enjoy being a bit different. You don't see many Scouts racing, and it's fun. Yes, I even run one of those 700lbs small-block IH motors, too.. and I could've built 2 350s or 351s for what this one cost..

[tsm1mt]

you are correct chris that should be the case. the reason we are building a 78 is simply because we already have the truck with a good motor, tranny, axles, ect... i think where Moss has had great success is the fact that there just aren't many people willing to race class 3 and he always finishes the races.

You have to finish to win. Sometimes the slowest, but most reliable, vehicle will win.. or sometimes it's just the driver that's smart enough to let his competition take themselves out of the running.

That's been my strategy for a good while - don't bother taking the hole-shot, or getting out in front. Let the other guys go.. push them from behind a little.. and let them get stupid and pretty quick they'll put themselves in the DNF slot.

Doesn't work on everyone, but around here there are times when half the field will take itself out of the race early on by out-driving their vehicles.

With regard to a 78 SA Bronco vs TTB.. one "advantage" is, IIRC, the biggest factory engine in a 80+ Bronco is the 351W, a fine engine in itself, but in 78/79 you could get the 400M.. which despite it's bad reputation, can be built into one strong running engine with the right components.

A friend runs a 10+:1 400M in his "78/79" tube-chassis trail truck.. it turns 53" Michelins on 2.5T Rockwells and spins them *HARD*. Same guy is building an EB at the moment to race, and will be installing a worked over 302 (IIRC).

[toddz]

I'm no class 3 expert but it seems, despite the sucess of the Moss solid front axle
bronco, that an 80-96 TTB bronco ought to be able to outrun any solid axle class 3.

That is definitely true, Chris. As you remember well, the Ashley/Smith Enduro Bronco decimated the competition in Class 3 during the years it ran in the late '80s/early '90s. It's the most successful racing Bronco of all time (Moss is close behind though).

Ken Leavitt runs an early '80s TTB Bronco right now and is competitive with Moss speedwise but has not been as fortunate in terms of vehicle reliability.

Todd Z.

[toddz]

i think where Moss has had great success is the fact that there just aren't many people willing to race class 3 and he always finishes the races.

Prep and reliability are the keys to Moss' success, and the fact that Don and Ken are both good drivers.

Todd Z.

[toddz]

With regard to a 78 SA Bronco vs TTB.. one "advantage" is, IIRC, the biggest factory engine in a 80+ Bronco is the 351W, a fine engine in itself, but in 78/79 you could get the 400M.. which despite it's bad reputation, can be built into one strong running engine with the right components.


A strong running Windsor is lighter than the 400 - that's one key advantage I see with running it. Mosses run a 351W in their Bronco.

Todd Z.

[toddz]

so you can get rid of the actual coil bucket and run whatever lengh coil-over that you can fit in there?

Yes. Ken Leavitt has that setup on his Bronco and Salvador Cervantes and Kirk Kovel both run coilovers in their EBs.

Todd Z.

[jamoffroad]

two of the " most recent factory trucks" were solid axle jeeps , cherokee, and grand cherokee from mike lisle racing in the late 80s.later with clive skilton of jeepspeed . clive still has the last one and races every once and while. the problem with solid axle is the steering has a ton of bump steer. hard to get rid of and so times the steering gets to be complex with lots of travel and solid axle but it has been done . even a couple of the early TT were solid axle. rod hall always had solid axle for his hole career with dodge , so it can be done it just takes time and work to make it workout. and the "stock concept " is up to bill savage if he likes it it passes , or not . its up to him . but like i said if you build it race it , but if you win it could get DQ , so do what you want and think will work , I would let you race until you start to domanate then will see . hope this helps . the rule books are out , but new one is coming soon with new roll cage rules and so on .

[Stephen]

For score, the best I can come up with is location and spring are 2 separate subjects. For leaves/solid axle, the axle is located with steel bars running from the frame to axle and is held up with leaf springs that just happen to incorporate those same steel bars. This is how I assume a 1/4 elip rear is OK. You still have steel bars (links) locating the axle, and leaves holding it up. Applying this to the front is a lot harder to do but there's a jeep honcho truck in idaho somewhere (ken wartluff?) that runs in BORE with a semi elliptic 4 link front that seems to work very well. It's really complex though and I hate the maintenance on leaf springs unless you're close to a spring shop.
I'd like to see class 3 opened up more like bitd. 15" travel limit, same axle configuration as stock (solid axle, I beam, a-arm, etc) retain 4wd, period. go ahead and link it up, add coilovers, etc. Some common ground on score and bitd rules would be great.

I think a lot of how rule interpretation is decided needs to come from guys who watched class 8 evolve. How did they get from a rule set like the 3's to a basically open truck except for the frame and motor placement?

[amrein1743]

I'm really glad to see the intrest in class 3 racing...I thought I was the only one thinking about building one.

I agree, I would like to see SCORE and BITD rules be the same. I would like to race both, but I think BITD's rules are a little more open...

Not to hijack the thread, but I have been wondering if building a class 3 is even a good idea in terms of the future of off road racing. Class 3 doesn't get a great turnout already, and I don't think contingency pays back as well as other similar classes like 7, 7s, and 8. Plus everyone seems to be real excited about CORR racing, which leaves me wondering about the future of small classes like class 3. Anyone have an opinion on this?

Chris Amrein

[jamoffroad]

your looking at it all wrong . less entries easier to get press, better to get sponser. easier to win better chance to win season champ. be one of 8 trucks or 1 of 20. in btid the factories really look at stock class for run it sell it. so if you look at it right it makes since the factorys sell millions of SUVs each year so if you win with one the factorys might help but if you run a 78 dodge ramcharger i dont think it will help , but if you run a 2004 trail blazer then chevy mite help you out . score and BTID want to sell the sport to the factories so you need to help out . In BTID ford pays good money but you need to run a new truck "SLA" to get payed . Short, Long arm front suspenison. to get payed so your 72 HI stout wont work but if you love it run it . just my opion.

[Stephen]

I don't think class 3 is going to disappear but I do wonder about the popularity. I hope that some of the interested people here (myself included) can get it together to actually get racing which will create a class. I think if it's done right it has a lot of possibilities for being popular since there are a lot of people that could crossover from the recreational 4wd world. The guy running a trail rig and wanting to do something different could feel right at home in a 3.
Right now score seems to be the hot bed of activity and there's only a half dozen racers at best so it is hard to find a good race at this point. One problem could be that jeepspeed is pulling from the same crowd and I don't know how well jeepspeed mixes with other class 3's.

I think we do need to press the promoters to consider making the rules such that it's a racer's class and not a manufacturers class. At this point nobody at GM cares that score makes K5's run a leaf spring. And I'm sure they don't care that much about any class above the stock classes since a tahoe with a totally one-off a-arm front suspension with coilovers (legal in bitd) does nothing to sell tahoes. We might as well all run something that levels the field somewhat and is relatively cheap and easy to build and maintain. This is part of my "allow all solid axle fronts to run links and coilovers" soapbox. Then use the funtional 4wd requirement and a 15" or so travel limit to keep it all kind of even. Let really short trucks like eb's and jeeps stretch a little wheelbase here and there but limit all to 108 or 110.

[jamoffroad]

stepen your mixing classes and rules. you are right that Jeepspeed is stealing drivers, but that is the class you sound like you want to race. I want to race a class with the possabilty of getting payed to race "I want to be a pro" . Yes racing is fun and the greatest sport to me but you sound like you want to race for fun. so build your K5 with a "linked" front end . race for fun in MDR,MORE,SNORE,VORRA they will let you run anything you bring . I want to race but i want to get something out of my effort. dont get me wrong "Jeepspeed" is cool class but jeep dont make cherokees any more and not going to pay you to race them, The only thing facotrys get out of racing is bragging rights, or testing product. Thats how they justify the expence to their board of directors and stock holders. We as a sport have to get professional if we want are sport to be taken seriously by the factorys and media . Are sport cant servive being a " Rich thrill seekers sport" . That is the out look of most people . We need to get organized and professional if we want to be taken seriously. Yes all the promoters should use the same rules and classes, not have races to close together , and should have more pay back, but "WE" the racers need to help also by looking the part of pro racers, giving them race teams and vehicles to show the factorys .give the promotors something to promote .So we need to be serious to be taken seriously.

[Blue Man]

So where would a Jeep Cherokee fit in now, Class 3 or Jeep Speed? JS was first developed for a low budget entry form of racing, now it is out of control and you need $s to compete. On the Jeepspeed web site there is bickering about everything, it looks like they lost the reason the class was created. I would realy like to race something with a cage, but it seems to be so out of control it is not worth the time. I spoke with three drivers at a BITD race and they had anywhere from 14K to 40 K invested, a middle $ entry won their class. I think I will stick to bikes for now.

[irishprerunner]

stepen your mixing classes and rules. you are right that Jeepspeed is stealing drivers, but that is the class you sound like you want to race. I want to race a class with the possabilty of getting payed to race "I want to be a pro" . Yes racing is fun and the greatest sport to me but you sound like you want to race for fun. so build your K5 with a "linked" front end . race for fun in MDR,MORE,SNORE,VORRA they will let you run anything you bring . I want to race but i want to get something out of my effort. dont get me wrong "Jeepspeed" is cool class but jeep dont make cherokees any more and not going to pay you to race them, The only thing facotrys get out of racing is bragging rights, or testing product. Thats how they justify the expence to their board of directors and stock holders. We as a sport have to get professional if we want are sport to be taken seriously by the factorys and media . Are sport cant servive being a " Rich thrill seekers sport" . That is the out look of most people . We need to get organized and professional if we want to be taken seriously. Yes all the promoters should use the same rules and classes, not have races to close together , and should have more pay back, but "WE" the racers need to help also by looking the part of pro racers, giving them race teams and vehicles to show the factorys .give the promotors something to promote .So we need to be serious to be taken seriously.

to me the problem with getting the factory support is again the rules. class 7 & 8 can get away with it because you can put updated body pannels on and nobody would know the difference. now take my case with a 1978 bronco. i might be able to adapt a newer front clip but class 3 does not allow the whole body to be replaced and honestly i think it would look stupid to have a new modern clip on a vehicle ford has made anything like it in almost 10 years. i don't know about you but i can not afford to go buy a newer expedition and build the piss out of it, and even then is the wheelbase to long. hell that is why we are interested in class 3 i think anybody can be fairly competative without giving up their first born.

[tsm1mt]

I hope that some of the interested people here (myself included) can get it together to actually get racing which will create a class. I think if it's done right it has a lot of possibilities for being popular since there are a lot of people that could crossover from the recreational 4wd world. The guy running a trail rig and wanting to do something different could feel right at home in a 3.


I'm a cross-over that used to be heavily interested in recreational trail riding.. in '98 a friend let me take the wheel of his "race Scout" for a weekend.. and while at the race, another guy offered me a couple chassis to work with, and within a month I'd begun combining what I had into something *I* could race.

First raced it on the 4th of July in 1999, and I'm still abusing that poor vehicle.

I'm not racing SCORE, though. We have our own short-course organization throughout Montana. The rules are very simple. If you show up in a 4x4 (we're a 4x4 organization, so we specifically encourage 4x4s.. the same organization that organizes the racing is the same organization that coordinates statewide recreational trail use as well) with a 6pt rollcage, and you have a helmet and long sleeves, long pants.. you're probably race legal after you empty your rig of any loose objects, and pass the tech person's once-over.

Very easy for a recreational wheeler to join us and do 100-yard sand drags in his daily driver, or make a solo pass around our "obstacle course" for time - and you can have a lot of fun, without feeling the NEED to win and hurt your rig.

Entry fees are around $25. ;)

When we run wheel to wheel, we add a few more safety requirements, and you don't see as many recreational rigs in the mix.. though often you see someone that used to just have a street/trail vehicle build a race vehicle.

What does this have to do with Class3? Just pointing out that short-course 4x4 wheel-to-wheel (or solo timed) racing is popular up here.

Many of us are interested in making our vehicles SCORE/BITD Class 3/3000 legal - particularly me, which is why I started this thread. ;)

There's still the matter of the 1000 mile drive to Primm that puts a cramp on us, but there are members of M4x4A that make the trek periodically. While Al Hogan isn't an M4x4A member, I believe he is based out of Montana, and attends our races from time to time. There's also a CORR team based out of Montana - and they were instrumental in getting a CORR-approved track built, though CORR hasn't held an event here yet, we have had races on that track.

[tsm1mt]

now take my case with a 1978 bronco. i might be able to adapt a newer front clip but class 3 does not allow the whole body to be replaced and honestly i think it would look stupid to have a new modern clip on a vehicle ford has made anything like it in almost 10 years. i don't know about you but i can not afford to go buy a newer expedition and build the piss out of it, and even then is the wheelbase to long. hell that is why we are interested in class 3 i think anybody can be fairly competative without giving up their first born.

Agreed. My pockets are not deep enough to buy a 2000+ model anything and dedicate it for a competition vehicle and THEN upgrade/modify it.

Instead, I start with someone's discards, or salvaged from the wrecking yard.

Doesn't get much more "grass roots" than that. ;)

There's under $10k in my racer. First season I had under $1500 total investment. After I got tired of yarding the junkyard engines every other race, I spent some coin on a new mill, then a built trans, and then just kept throwing money at it now and then when I'd break something.

[Stephen]

For the factories to get any good out of a desert race, they need to have a somewhat stock vehicle racing. Hence the reason ford supports the stock classes so heaviliy in bitd, they're not dumb, they know they can take data from those racers to sell trucks or learn to build better trucks. Or at least portray an image that buying a ford will somehow make you race ready.
That's never going to happen in score's class 3 or bitd 3000 since the rules allow the vehicle to be heavily modified, typically to the point that the factory can get no data about how their vehicle system performs. If there's not going to be any big money from the manufacturers, it might as well be cheaper and easier to run for those in the class. And they don't need to modify the rules to limit the vehicles to factory specs, that's what the stock classes that already exist are for.

My understanding of jeepspeed is that they fit into class 3 easily as long as they're 4wd with the only problem being that they have a 12" travel limit in jeepspeed and could open it up a bit more for score. They're probably pretty competetive in score. Jeepspeed would fit but probably wouldn't compete well at all in bitd 3000 if there are any serious competitors in the class. An A-arm tahoe would kick the crap out of any short wheelbase 4wd.

Budget racing is all relative but even a 3 won't be cheap, I'm planning on at least $1K per wheel in shocks alone, for open course racing you need a nice big fuel cell of some sort, 8 wheels and tires seems to be the get-by minimum, a GPS is probably mandatory equipment, etc, etc, etc. It's pretty scary how expensive a "cheap" truck can get. It may be easier for someone from the rec. 4x4 world since we'll probably have lots of parts laying around but that only takes you so far.

[jamoffroad]

first off this thread is about "CLASS 3 RACING" . well class 3 is a SCORE race class. Not the montana 4x4 club races. that said lets talk about class 3 racing. yes Jeepspeed are legal in class 3 and yes they are very competetive even with only 12 inches of travel, people always get sucked into how much travel . it quality not amount its how its used that matters . im talking about people getting the class more modern like trucks not 25-30 yrs old some thing thats available at the dealer lot down the street . thats what we need to get the class to grow . modern trucks with a arms and coil overs ,not leaf spring , atleast not in the front. and racing isnt cheap we raced class 9 for years and the guy that payed the bills spent 25-30 just to race class 9 for one season . when we won the season championship in class 12 we spent 75,000 to win the title and won 3,900 for the season championship. so the old saying is if you want to make a little money racing , start with alot. i dont think your farm truck that you sand drag,mud bog, and fairground race is anywhere near race ready for SCORE,BITD,CORE,MDR,MORE, or even tough truck . so go race it and have fun. because score and baja are for real racing.

[tsm1mt]

first off this thread is about "CLASS 3 RACING" . well class 3 is a SCORE race class. Not the montana 4x4 club races. i dont think your farm truck that you sand drag,mud bog, and fairground race is anywhere near race ready for SCORE,BITD,CORE,MDR,MORE, or even tough truck . so go race it and have fun. because score and baja are for real racing.

I know this is about CLASS 3 / Class 3000 racing.. I started the thread to get a better idea of the boundaries of Class 3 before I wind up modifying my way out of anything but the open TT class.

The only point I was trying to make is there are people that want to race a 4x4, and I have dozens up here. Most of which would be aiming for Class 3.

No, my rig isn't ready for SCORE/BITD/etc, but it's my intention to make it SCORE legal. That aspiration is shared by many of my competitors - they're all looking over as many rulebooks as they can to adjust their rigs to meet the specs.

Not all of them are interested in entry fees close to $1000, and with SCORE's annual inspections, I doubt many of us will be able to run SCORE / run SCORE again.

But I want the option.

[Stephen]

first off this thread is about "CLASS 3 RACING" . well class 3 is a SCORE race class. Not the montana 4x4 club races. that said lets talk about class 3 racing. yes Jeepspeed are legal in class 3 and yes they are very competetive even with only 12 inches of travel, people always get sucked into how much travel . it quality not amount its how its used that matters . im talking about people getting the class more modern like trucks not 25-30 yrs old some thing thats available at the dealer lot down the street . thats what we need to get the class to grow . modern trucks with a arms and coil overs ,not leaf spring , atleast not in the front. and racing isnt cheap we raced class 9 for years and the guy that payed the bills spent 25-30 just to race class 9 for one season . when we won the season championship in class 12 we spent 75,000 to win the title and won 3,900 for the season championship. so the old saying is if you want to make a little money racing , start with alot. i dont think your farm truck that you sand drag,mud bog, and fairground race is anywhere near race ready for SCORE,BITD,CORE,MDR,MORE, or even tough truck . so go race it and have fun. because score and baja are for real racing.

So to summarize, jeepspeed is class 3 legal and will run competetively in score races but with no travel limits in score they could stretch their legs a bit more than jeepspeed would allow.
And don't plan on long course racing for cheap.
I guess you agree.

If you want to agree a little more, maybe we could lobby score to ease up on the factory type spring requirement and you could run a late model something with coilovers and we could run old trucks with coilovers. Seems like that would make it easier for all of us to build, tune and maintain a race vehicle. With racing being a little cheaper and easier, maybe a few more people would do it and create some competition and a purse. Besides, coilovers are just so nice and shiny.
So back to the post subject, until we get a rule change from score, I don't see how you can do much with the front of a leaf sprung truck beyond some creative mounts for some 1/4 elliptics somehow. Or link/double shackles on semi elliptics. No matter what, we seem to be stuck with leaf springs in some form. I guess one other option is to build it and ask the racers if they'll let you in, this has happened recently and they were OK with a 2wd jeepspeeder but if you look competetive, I doubt they'll let you into the class more than a couple times.
For bitd it's easy, link/coil the front and rear and go for it but it's going to be tough to be competetive in any short wheelbase 4wd, especially with a solid axle.

[irishprerunner]

first off this thread is about "CLASS 3 RACING" . well class 3 is a SCORE race class. Not the montana 4x4 club races. that said lets talk about class 3 racing. yes Jeepspeed are legal in class 3 and yes they are very competetive even with only 12 inches of travel, people always get sucked into how much travel . it quality not amount its how its used that matters . im talking about people getting the class more modern like trucks not 25-30 yrs old some thing thats available at the dealer lot down the street . thats what we need to get the class to grow . modern trucks with a arms and coil overs ,not leaf spring , atleast not in the front. and racing isnt cheap we raced class 9 for years and the guy that payed the bills spent 25-30 just to race class 9 for one season . when we won the season championship in class 12 we spent 75,000 to win the title and won 3,900 for the season championship. so the old saying is if you want to make a little money racing , start with alot. i dont think your farm truck that you sand drag,mud bog, and fairground race is anywhere near race ready for SCORE,BITD,CORE,MDR,MORE, or even tough truck . so go race it and have fun. because score and baja are for real racing.

i understand that racing is not cheap, o am slowly learning that with my "1450" truck. the issue i see with "modern" truck is that there is not enough payback for me to go but a newer SUV and build a more complex A_Arm suspension that keeps 4X4 and really make myself go broke. with my 25-30 year bronco i can still keep it on a little bit of a budget. we will probably never run SCORE or BITD's whole season simply because of the costs of everything that it takes to travel from az with a decent size pit crew. we will mainly race in the whiplash series here in az but if the timeing was right and we made it to a SCORE or BITD event i still want to be able to race in a class that has similar vehicles.

[tsm1mt]

i understand that racing is not cheap, o am slowly learning that with my "1450" truck. the issue i see with "modern" truck is that there is not enough payback for me to go but a newer SUV and build a more complex A_Arm suspension that keeps 4X4 and really make myself go broke. with my 25-30 year bronco i can still keep it on a little bit of a budget. we will probably never run SCORE or BITD's whole season simply because of the costs of everything that it takes to travel from az with a decent size pit crew. we will mainly race in the whiplash series here in az but if the timeing was right and we made it to a SCORE or BITD event i still want to be able to race in a class that has similar vehicles.

Irish, you n' I are on the same page.

I can see how it's EASY to take a large fortune and make a small one by going racing if you start out with a $10k-$30k vehicle, and then get serious about throwing money at it.

I think a person can have a lot of fun by starting with something a little less sexy, spend wisely, and drive like you own it. :D

I, too, will never make a full season of SCORE or BITD, but once in a while would sure be fun.


For bitd it's easy, link/coil the front and rear and go for it but it's going to be tough to be competetive in any short wheelbase 4wd, especially with a solid axle.


If BITD doesn't have anything against trading my leaves for a link & coil setup, then I guess I'll stop worrying about SCORE.

[Gadzooks2]

tsm1mt, You might try writing down the configuration you are thinking about building and running it by the tech inspector for each series you are considering running. If you want to build a unique system, you might find a series that you are legal in and competitive. Oh, and by the way to try and get their decision in writing:D

[Stephen]

bitd's rulebook is available to download, you should go grab it. For you that would be a good series to run since at least one race (vegas to reno) ends up closer to home.

Score's rules aren't as accessible but here's the pertinent section:
Suspension components:
Spindles may be reinforced or replaced but must retain the orignal stock concept. Front and rear suspension must be of the same basic design and concept as originally produced and installed on the chassis to which is mounted. This will be determined by manufacturer of chassis and the year the chassis was manufactured. Suspension parts may be strengthened, reinforced, or replaced bu the stock track width (4" must be retained (sic).Suspension must retain the original design and concept (a-arm, MacPherson struc, Ibeam, etc.) and all primary spring systems must retain the original concept (leaf, torsion bar, coil, etc) that was delivered on the year chassis that is in use. Items with no restrictions are:
A pivot point bushings
B spring rates and capacities
C Ball joints
D mountings
Primary coil springs are limited to one coil per wheel and must be mounted according to stock concept.
Stock production wheelbase must be retained +/-2" as long as it does not exceed 108"

To summarize the shock section, anything goes except shocks through the hood.
Secondary suspension is allowed as long as the primary can hold ride heigh +/- 1.5" with out the secondary.

[endeavor]

SCORE rules aren't online, but if you are serious about racing spend the $20 and they'll mail one to you. It takes about a week, and then you won't have to guess. Also -- if you have specific questions, there is a tech line that you should use prior to spending money. I've had several, and they cleared them up for me before I coughed up the dough. My impression is they really want to work with the Class 3 guys..

I'm building a Class 3 Bronco ('76) right now. Our first race will be the '06 500, and although it's considered a "budget" class I can tell you that it takes serious money (at least it's serious to me) if you are going to be serious about racing. I'm a huge believer in one of the previous comments "you have to finish to win". Scroungin' junk yards for parts won't get it done. We'll have about 45-50k in our little Bronco before we load her on the trailer, so I can only imagine what the pro's are spending.

Maybe I mis-read some of the comments, but I don't think the popularity of off-road racing will be determined by the small group that's willing to bounce around the desert in a Class 3, so I don't think driving a 25-30 yr old vehicle is bad for the sport. One of the great things about the sport is that "average Joe's" like me can build a vehicle and actually have a chance to compete like the big boys.

Lookin' forward to seeing some of you guys next month at the 1000. I'll be pullin' for all the Class 3 guys, but especially the Old Horse Racing gang! :D

[subrunner]

Personally, I wish they'd let longer wheelbase vehicles in. Like Suburbans.

[roach]

glad to see some interest in class 3 again. Moss better clean his rear view mirror soon (he has not used it in soooooo long, no one ever comes up on him!!!!) i have a realistic plan of having mine done by the '06 point to point baja 1000. the first 3 or 4 months of building mine were phone calls and e-mails to find out what was going to be legal and what was not. i did lots of homework before i grabed the plasma cutter and got busy. hope to see more and more entries out there!! see you guys at the 1000.

[Chris_Wilson]

"Personally, I wish they'd let longer wheelbase vehicles in. Like Suburbans."

They do. It's called class 8.

[Stephen]

Roach, if you don't mind giving out the info, what kind of issues did you have to sort out through Savage? I understand if you have things you don't want to talk about since pushing the rules as far as possible is pretty much what racing is about. It might be useful info in this post to see what questions you had answered and what they said.

[roach]

i guess without revealing too much...........

my big concers were wheel base limitations and track widths, displacement, and more important, just how much material i could remove from anything and everything.

for example:
1. rules say stock sheetmetal must to retained, but then again the rules say no internal sheet metal is needed. after the approvall, i was able to remove EVERYTHING but the "A" and "B" pillar outer skin, roof outer skin, lower windshield sheetmetal, and bottom door jam.
2. "one coil per wheel" allowed, but was allowed a dual rate coil-over and will consider it one spring as long as it is mounted in the same location as stock. (lower mount only)
3. allowed to run a big block!!!
and so on and so on. the rest you will have to wait and see.

here are some teasers..............
a pair of custom built fuel safe 25 gal fuel cells (i will let your imagination go to work on this one) total 50 gals!!
deaver rears w/ 16" 5 tube bypass
custom front TTB's w/ 14" 3 tube bypass
big block 460
and of course, a picture of Donald Moss with crosshairs on the dash!!!

[Stephen]

Good info, thanks!
That's the kind of stuff that makes it easier for others to build without asking the same questions again and again.
You'll have to tell us the story about how you got the BB OK'd sometime, that's interesting.
I think one thing we can count on with the body mods is that they just want these trucks to be recognizable as some kind of vehicle. They're not trying to make it hard, they just seem to want joe (or jolene) blow to see your bronco and know it's a bronco.

[sickrick]

1. rules say stock sheetmetal must to retained, but then again the rules say no internal sheet metal is needed. after the approvall, i was able to remove EVERYTHING but the "A" and "B" pillar outer skin, roof outer skin, lower windshield sheetmetal, and bottom door jam.
If this is true I may be able to run my bronco?

http://groups.msn.com/fabmotorsports/sodaampcorrtrucks.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=52

[Stephen]

Looks like you have all the right sheet metal to me.

[sickrick]

The problem is the cage, it is 1 3/4 and I don't think I can get it under 4000 lbs.

[roach]

rick, as long as you can have your car looked at before the middle of next year by score, you are OK. then you would obviously need your yearly inspection of course. this hole NEW rules still gets alot of people confused. your truck would not be legal to the 06 and above specs, but since your truck is already built, you just need it to be inspected before the cut-off date and then your fine, even with 1 3/4 tubing.

[sickrick]

I had planned on running it this year; but have put it off until next year and I don't want to make a trip to california just for the inspection.

I still think that a yearly crack inspection is pointless and just amounts to a tax on the racers, but thats a whole different thread.

[DarrenSkilton]

Great to see Class 3 getting talked up! I loved racing in all the Class 3 vehicles over the years and feel that it is such an important class in the history of the sport. If anyone wants a bargain on killer Class 3, PM me. I have a couple of championship winning Kias that are itching to go for spin!

[sickrick]

Take two they're small.

[sickrick]

Darren,
Thanks for the pm.
You certainly cound't build a better truck for that kind of cash. That is out of my price range until next year, but I bet someone else might be interested. Do you have a link to some photos. Are they identical?

[roach]

You'll have to tell us the story about how you got the BB OK'd sometime, that's interesting.


easy, from the Score rule book.....

"COMPETITION REGULATIONS"
"manufacturers body, engine, and chassis combinations must be retained. this class is an open produtction class and all components will be considered open unless restricted herein"

as long as it is a ford body, ford frame, ford engine, it is all good.

"CR23 ENGINE AND ENGINE DISPLACEMENT"
"engine must be of the same manufacturer basic design and type and have the same number of cylinders as the one installed by the manufacturer. any displacement engine may be used as long as the original block casting ramains the same. block must be made of the same type of material as that of the block that is installed by the vehicle by the manufacturer for the particular chassis and body series. engine must be readily available to the general public in the USA."

so, where does it say here that you cant run a big block????

[tsm1mt]

[QUOTE=roach
so, where does it say here that you cant run a big block????[/QUOTE]

If the rules had read "for the year vehicle" then the 351W in the '79 Moss Bronco would be illegal just as much as a 460 in a '79 Bronco would be.

Nothing but a 351M or 400M. :D

[jamoffroad]

cr23 states that any engine that is sold buy manfactuter is ok ** ford in ford is ok chevy in ford not ok**

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

engine must be of the same manufacturer basic design and type and have the same number of cylinders as the one installed by the manufacturer.

Does Big Block/Small Block fall under same basic design and type?

[DarrenSkilton]

The two class 3 cars I have are identical in drivetrain and chassis except one is built for Baja and one for the Dakar. One has a 35 gallon cell the other a 90 gallon cell. Radiator location and windshield are the other major difference. If you likd, we could custom prep the Baja car with my spare trophy truck motor, it will bolt right in. At the Baja 2000 I had the car at 119 mph on the Bay of LA road with the 300 hp version of that motor.

The baja car is all apart right now. So if someone wanted take it with all the parts to assemble and prep it themselves I would adjust the price accordingly. I need the space in the shop!

some old links with photos

http://www.truckworld.com/Racing/Off-Road/99-Baja-1000/99-Baja-1000.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/motor_sports/1268876.html

[Stephen]

"COMPETITION REGULATIONS"
"manufacturers body, engine, and chassis combinations must be retained. this class is an open produtction class and all components will be considered open unless restricted herein"


I think I like your interpretation, I would have guessed that maintaining the "combinations" stated above would require keeping the block size but read your way, a BBF is just fine. And if Savage cleared it, it is done.

[offroadaction]

Anybody see the sweet Class 3 CJ-7 in the classifieds?

http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/trader/atl.cgi?ct=2&md=second&id=24874

Lots of money, but it seems to have all the top of the line stuff. Gotta love short wheelbase and leaf springs!

[ntsqd]

so, where does it say here that you cant run a big block????

"CR23 ENGINE AND ENGINE DISPLACEMENT
... any displacement engine may be used as long as the original block casting remains the same. "
This sentence could be interpreted to mean that the engine block used must be of the type and size originally installed by the manf. It could also be interpreted to mean that you can't use anything except the actual engine block that came in the vehicle. Or it could be read to mean that as long as a production block, of the same manf. is used it's OK.
Really depends on who is doing the reading, and how they decide to interpret it. If you don't have a BBF OK'd in writing, I'd get it.

[racinteach]

I had a toyota landcruiser back in the early 90's . raced it in Baja promotions series and at the time La rana..had blast miss it big time..knowing what I know now I could have had it run faster then it was. National spring made my packs and did an awesome job. I moved the pivot locations a bit and when sitign was just a bit over wheelbase(within rules) but when it sat under throttle it would stretch....make it more stable..managed to get 18 " out of the rear and 14" out of the front.. while only sitting a few inches over stock height....not bad for a kid out of high school...man I miss that FJ40....I am now much smarter adn more creative...give me another short wheel base racer...anyday...

[Stephen]

Does anyone have an interest in lobbying SCORE to allow changing the spring type on the front end, similar to class 8? There seem to be some interested racers or at least some interested potential racers watching this post so it seems to be a good place to ask.
We're planning a class 3 K5 and I'd like to run a coil or coilover up front instead of the leaves to make it easier to build and tune and to provide some crossover to a coil conversion kit. It seems like others would be interested, especially those that have to run torsion bars.
I know a leaf sprung vehicle can be competetive, it would just be a bit easier and maybe cheaper to open the spring requirements up.
I'm not sure what it would take to get a rule change through, the big deal last spring seems to have fizzled out but maybe less sweeping changes would make it happen.

[tsm1mt]

Does anyone have an interest in lobbying SCORE to allow changing the spring type on the front end, similar to class 8?

I'm interested in keeping my solid-axle front end, but dumping my leaves for coils and links.

I'm fighting steering linkage issues with leaf spring interference, as well as problems related to the need for a long-travel driveshaft required to accomodate the ever-changing pinion angle and pinion-to-t'case distance.

Many days it seems it'd just be simpler to link it. :D

[Stephen]

Those are the standard leaf spring issues. There's ways around most of it but it's a bunch of excess monkey motion to get the job done. In our case, we're looking at doing some link/coil kits for the older GM's and it would be nice to get some of them racing. For a non racing (rule compliant) suspension, trying to build quality front wheel travel out of leaf spring is pointless. I think we should make that jump in racing also. Nobody cares about long travel leaves in the aftermarket, why force racers to build/develop suspensions that use them. Same for torsion bars, everybody wants to switch to coilovers, let's make it easy and do it ourselves too.

[tsm1mt]

Those are the standard leaf spring issues. There's ways around most of it but it's a bunch of excess monkey motion to get the job done.

Went high-steer to avoid bump-steer and the springs in the way, full cross over.

Then used the draglink as a bump stop, so I notched the frame and brought the pitman arm up.

Bent the springs and the front housing with the stock shackle-forward design.. went RS.. went to a long-slip 'shaft.. not long enough, I pogo'd the t'case apart a few times before I got it RIGHT.. now the 'shaft is tearing up the stock-depth transmission pan at full bump because of the 2" diameter needed for the 14" of slip..

It's fun. :D

Link it, go back to a short-slip 'shaft, don't worry about anything moving around unexpectedly, and don't bother with heavy soft leaves and just slap on the coil-overs.

I'm going to run at least one more season with the front leaves just to prove I can..

I've been campaigning the poor thing since 1999.. :D

[retroblazer]

I can't believe I missed this thread. First, the interest in this class is growing. Second, to the dumb asses who think the factories are their salvation, they're not. Third, with an equalized rule base, I was able to get twenty plus Class 3's to race at Crandon. They race now, but nobody outside the Midwest know's about them because they are not a CORR class. They are know as "Formula 4x4" and have a separate points championship sponsored by Johnson Meats. The rules are simple, 14 inches of travel per corner, maximum of one 2 1/2" smooth body shock, no coil-overs, no by-passes. Maximum width of 82" 410" engine displacement. Wheelbase is limited to 108" So, if you want to strecth, you can, if you want to four link it, you can. No single make gets an advantage. That's the ***** about SCORE class 3. If there's not a travel limit, it will become strictly ford ttb's, period. www.rafforacing.com

[4lb2]

Just wanted to pop in and say I'm planning on having my trail b2 class 3 race ready for the 07 mrd superstition series.
The idea of racing on saturday and crawling on sunday sounds pretty fun!

[roach]

well, got the bronco race truck tagged by Score Tech today. passed with flying colors. one step closer to getting it to the dirt!!!

[BroncoII]

Irish, you n' I are on the same page.

I can see how it's EASY to take a large fortune and make a small one by going racing if you start out with a $10k-$30k vehicle, and then get serious about throwing money at it.

I think a person can have a lot of fun by starting with something a little less sexy, spend wisely, and drive like you own it. :D


Same here. I will be running a 90 Bronco II in the 06 Baja 1000, Class 3. It is being built strong to finish the race. Lot of the local shops here in Erie have been willing to help and much fab work is being done where i work. Truck is fairly stock with the focus being on some extra travel, strength, cooling systems, and ease of repair/replacement in the field.

Running 2.9L Injected V6, dana 35 front, 8.8 rear. Thinking about naming the rig, " I Think I Can"

[roach]

Thinking about naming the rig, " I Think I Can"

for the baja 1K, i would name it "I HOPE I CAN!!"
all in fun. anyway, good luck, i wanted to have mine ready for this race also, but two things stand in my way right now. time and money!! PM me if you have any questions, i went left and right, as well as up and down the rule book on what do and dont's you got. post some pics or your rig. it keeps the class 3 thing going here.

[steveG]

BroncoII, Have you thought about using a 4 door Explorer? The longer wheel base will handle a lot better and it already comes with the D35, 8.8 and best of all, a 4.0L. Because of their popularity they're pretty cheap too.

I had a 92 4wd 4dr and it handled surprisingly well in the dirt.

http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/289268/fullsize/Explorer%20d-day%20(5).JPG

Whatever you use, good luck and keep us posted on the build.

[wrightracing.net]

Ok, I need to setup the rear shocks for our Class 3 1986 bronco. I am torn between one 3.0" X 18" bypass or two 2.5" X 18 bypass at each corner? My thinking is that two shocks contain more oil and distribute the load and heat buildup IE shock fade is less. Is this a valid thought or am I off base. Tell me what you think. I am running National leafs and straping it at 20" of travel with fox bump stops.

[Brandon_Charley]

"Primary coil springs are limited to one coil per wheel and must be mounted according to stock concept."

That part of the rules means that TTB Fords have to use coil buckets, not coilovers, correct?

[wrightracing.net]

"Primary coil springs are limited to one coil per wheel and must be mounted according to stock concept."

That part of the rules means that TTB Fords have to use coil buckets, not coilovers, correct?

Coilover shocks are ok with Score and Most sanctioning bodies up front but Leafs have to be used in the rear. For a Bronco with coils up front the suspension still retains the stock concept of a coil spring but coil buckets are not regulated on f150's or bronco's. Now in the case of the ford lightning, the coil bucket's are part of the frame so if you cut then off you are breaking the frame rule that you can't remove material from the frame, but you can add to it.

[Brandon_Charley]

Then what does the part of the rules that I quoted mean? The part about retaining leafs or coils is stated before that part.

Coilover shocks are ok with Score and Most sanctioning bodies up front but Leafs have to be used in the rear. For a Bronco with coils up front the suspension still retains the stock concept of a coil spring but coil buckets are not regulated on f150's or bronco's. Now in the case of the ford lightning, the coil bucket's are part of the frame so if you cut then off you are breaking the frame rule that you can't remove material from the frame, but you can add to it.

[wrightracing.net]

Then what does the part of the rules that I quoted mean? The part about retaining leafs or coils is stated before that part.
The primary coil is a coil spring. The rule states original concept and so a coil over still stays with in that rules intent. The coil-over shock must be mounted in the general location of the original coil. The coil bucket is not regulated, so you can build a shock tower, hoop or engine cage to mount the coilover. They just don't want TT's racing bronco's and jeeps. This is an entry level class.

I hope to start my front end on the Bronco next month. I am going to 2.5X16 fox coilovers and a 2.5X16 smooth body for damponing. I might have some bypass tube put on the smooth bodies when I can afford too. It makes it a little harder to adjust but still ok for now. I am working on the cage right now.

[retroblazer]

I can't believe I missed this thread. First, the interest in this class is growing. Second, to the dumb asses who think the factories are their salvation, they're not. Third, with an equalized rule base, I was able to get twenty plus Class 3's to race at Crandon. They race now, but nobody outside the Midwest know's about them because they are not a CORR class. They are know as "Formula 4x4" and have a separate points championship sponsored by Johnson Meats. The rules are simple, 14 inches of travel per corner, maximum of one 2 1/2" smooth body shock, no coil-overs, no by-passes. Maximum width of 82" 410" engine displacement. Wheelbase is limited to 108" So, if you want to strecth, you can, if you want to four link it, you can. No single make gets an advantage. That's the ***** about SCORE class 3. If there's not a travel limit, it will become strictly ford ttb's, period. www.rafforacing.com

I hate to quote myself, but seeing that Donahoe is building a Class 3 Toyota FJ revives the matter of new cars being built for Class 3. Anybody have any pictures of his front end?

[Donahoe]

The front end in our New FJ can be bought off the shelf. Here is a picture. 13" of wheel travel with a coil-over and a by-pass shock. Total chaos makes a pretty nice system. We are going to do some real world testing for them next year..For now its keep it simple. If we need more later we might change it but I doubt it will need it.. The FJ will have its world premeire at the BFgoodrich Booth at the SEMA show. Then its off to the 2006 Baja 1000 for its first race.

Here is a link to some build pictures.
http://www.donahoeracing.com/project_detail.php?projectID=12

[ironbenderii]

What happened to your FJ Cruiser @ the 1000? I thought it was going to be there to race??

Jack

[Bulldozer]

Ok, I need to setup the rear shocks for our Class 3 1986 bronco. I am torn between one 3.0" X 18" bypass or two 2.5" X 18 bypass at each corner? My thinking is that two shocks contain more oil and distribute the load and heat buildup IE shock fade is less. Is this a valid thought or am I off base. Tell me what you think. I am running National leafs and straping it at 20" of travel with fox bump stops.
I think a single 3 or 4 inch bypass with a whole buncha tubes would be better than 2 shocks per corner.

[wrightracing.net]

I think a single 3 or 4 inch bypass with a whole buncha tubes would be better than 2 shocks per corner.

I just got hold of some 3.0X18 resi kings non bypass for a great price so for now I am going to run those. Setup and tuning of the shocks will take a little more but the bypass shocks just make setup easier.

[Chadzu]

couple of Q's. What is minimum weight for a 3/3000? Does score have a front wheel travel limit like bitd? What is the weight that score makes you jump to 2" tube for cage? I'm going to try my luck with an isuzu amigo in 3. Probably do some mdr races at first with a dream to run the penensula some day. The v6 will be way down on power, but for me its about building it and then having a good time with it.
This thread has been a good read, Thanks.
Chad

[wrightracing.net]

couple of Q's. What is minimum weight for a 3/3000? Does score have a front wheel travel limit like bitd? What is the weight that score makes you jump to 2" tube for cage? I'm going to try my luck with an isuzu amigo in 3. Probably do some mdr races at first with a dream to run the penensula some day. The v6 will be way down on power, but for me its about building it and then having a good time with it.
This thread has been a good read, Thanks.
Chad

Well the BITD rules are vary different for class 3 than MDR or Score. Score and MDR are almost the same. The cab and the frame of the vehical can't be cut. You can add to the frame to strengthen it, but you can't notch it cut it or lighten it. The suspension must remain OEM concept. Example- coil sprung front end you can use coil-over shocks but a leaf sprung front end you still have to use leafs-Front or rear. On the rear of my Bronco I have to run leafs or in some peoples interpritation of leafs you can get away with 1/4 eliptical reverse leafs. Motor block must be OEM for that vehical but it can be bored and stroked for more power. As far as safty it is the same. I think the limit for the cage is 4000lbs but if you are building a new cage spring for the 2"X.120" DOM or 4130.

Get a Score book, they don't cost much.

As far as wheel travel it is limited by what stock concept can handle and still stand up to racing. Also there is a 4" wider than stock rule, no more than +2 on each side.

I am no expert and I am building my Bronco and learning as I go from Guys with more experience than me when it comes to Building a race truck.

Like you it is just fun building the truck. I am still new to race fabrication which is more involved than just a play truck. I have built 3 buggies and a couple prerunners but a race truck is a whole different animal.

Good Luck

[TheWebWheeler]

Not to slide off topic here...

But I've wonder Hows Lee Orr is allowed to run his Bronco in MDR's class 3 ?
I'm not familar with MDR rules But he would never be able to run Score from my understanding..

It's 2WD with I-beams.. I suppose its because its similar to TTB arms?

SCORE's Class 3 is Short wheel based 4X4...
Whats is MDR's class desccription? :confused:

[wrightracing.net]

Not to slide off topic here...

But I've wonder Hows Lee Orr is allowed to run his Bronco in MDR's class 3 ?
I'm not familar with MDR rules But he would never be able to run Score from my understanding..

It's 2WD with I-beams.. I suppose its because its similar to TTB arms?

SCORE's Class 3 is Short wheel based 4X4...
Whats is MDR's class desccription? :confused:

It's not up to Score or MDR for class requirements until someone protests. Than Score and MDR will step in. 4wd is a class 3 requirement but until there is a protest he can run. Class 3 is so small in MDR like last race there was only one Jeep that ran class 3.

[TheWebWheeler]

Well if what your saying is right .....
Then what the hell are rules for :confused:

Rules are suppose to be the guide line The Class must follow, NO? http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif

So we can Cheat until its protested & SCORE Or MDR Decide to look into & make a choice on it. :confused:

& its not cheating to bend the rules Until Its protested?

Ok Lets say Someone Protest Lee Orr, While at the Outlaw 250 Their was a Class 3 guy that was very serious about his attempts at protesting Lee Orr.

& nothing has been done about it..

& what if MDR decides ok since many have protested Orr's rig.
He can not run that class with his set up.
Does that mean MDR will remove his Past Class wins? :confused:
He's already establlished a good record there, Not being a 4X4..

But as I said I dont know what MDR rules State?

I know this thread aint about this exactly But it is somewhat related..http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/m2c.gif

[AaronDixon]

BITD is throwing out Class 3000 in 2007.

6 Cyl trucks will run 7100 (7s)

8 Cyl trucks will run class 8000 (8)

And of course you could always run sportsman...


Aaron

[wrightracing.net]

Well if what your saying is right .....
Then what the hell are rules for :confused:

Rules are suppose to be the guide line The Class must follow, NO? http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif

So we can Cheat until its protested & SCORE Or MDR Decide to look into & make a choice on it. :confused:

& its not cheating to bend the rules Until Its protested?

Ok Lets say Someone Protest Lee Orr, While at the Outlaw 250 Their was a Class 3 guy that was very serious about his attempts at protesting Lee Orr.

& nothing has been done about it..

& what if MDR decides ok since many have protested Orr's rig.
He can not run that class with his set up.
Does that mean MDR will remove his Past Class wins? :confused:
He's already establlished a good record there, Not being a 4X4..

But as I said I dont know what MDR rules State?

I know this thread aint about this exactly But it is somewhat related..http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/m2c.gif

This bedate has gone on in class 8 for many years. Who has modified the frame, is that body moved, up, down, forward, back or what ever? The General Idea is to stay as close to the rules intent. Now we get into defenition of terms and the lawyer come out. It is a mess and always will be in limited classes.

Now putting a class 3 in with the class 8's not cool. Oh well I am just racing MDR with my class 3. In the end it's all about having fun in the desert. I hate when it gets all political, but you know some people have a stick up where th sun don't shine and ruin all the fun. :D

[roach]

i ran the 2004 seasong in Score class 3 with a 2wd cherokee for cash winnings. it was with the permission of the other class 3 guys who were racing, so there was no problem. but either way, in this case, David is right, MDR might not go up to every car and do an under car inspection. it is alot of time up to us to police each other. and if none of the other guys in this class mind, he can run until someone does.

[ntsqd]

BITD is throwing out Class 3000 in 2007.

6 Cyl trucks will run 7100 (7s)

8 Cyl trucks will run class 8000 (8)

And of course you could always run sportsman...


Aaron
That is the end of short wheelbase racing in BitD. Too bad too.

[151fab]

How do they measure the track-width on a ttb front end. I have a '94 bronco I'm widening a set of beams for. I'd like to go 4" a side but would that ruin any future plans of running in anything less than TT? Can you offset the wheel to compensate or are they measuring from the discs, balljoints, etc. Also, can you move the pivot points on the beams and radius arms?

[tsm1mt]

As far as wheel travel it is limited by what stock concept can handle and still stand up to racing. Also there is a 4" wider than stock rule, no more than +2 on each side.

Good Luck

I was doing some math and napkin engineering for my 100" WB Scout II with visions of class 3 / 3000 in my head.

BITD limits 15" front vertical travel, but I was going to beat that.

..except with a ~24" long front driveshaft, I can't get more than 9" from horizontal without the clearanced U-joints binding, and at horizontal I have transmission pan clearance problems.

The solution is to clock the transfer case and lower the front output, but even still, if I can lower the front output 3", I'm looking at around 12-13" of vertical travel out of the front end without pushing the t'case back (interestingly you can't move the engine back or the axle forward, but you could build a longer t'case adapter and/or run a divorced transfercase to get more front shaft length).

OTOH, I had everything worked out for 20-30" of rear wheel travel, too.. but with a 40" rear driveshaft, I'm stuck at around 14-16" from horizontal without tearing out the U-joints violently.

Can't notch the frame (well, much for BITD, any for SCORE) so I can't get much above "horizontal" unless I lower the entire drivetrain (which puts me back to the transmission pan clearance problems up front).

So the wheel travel limits are not an issue for most SWB 4x4s.. for that matter, my stock leaf springs have enough in 'em to run to the limit of the driveshafts. The downside is I'd rather run coil overs instead of wasting a set of leaf springs every season or two.

....

Can a Class 3 run in Class 8? There are 4x4 Class 8s now (no more Class 4), but would I need to make a minimum WB to qualify?

And if I run a SWB 4x4 in Class 8, does that mean I'm still stuck with leaf springs if originally equipped?

[Moss2]

That is the end of short wheelbase racing in BitD. Too bad too.

They put a death sentence on the class when they allowed 120" wheelbase. What is 'Short' about 120"? They should have combined the classes then. I think they did it to give a little transition period.

Tsm you could run your scout in 8 probably but you will get your clock cleaned. There is high attrition in the class so you may out endure them but I havent seen any Scouts that tough yet.

151fab I think they measure from wheel flanges so you would be limited to 2" per side. I think that is what Roach made his and he was(is?) trying to max the rules. As far as pivots and arms it is open. No stock parts or pivot points are requiered in SCORE.

[y2kbaja]

BITD is throwing out Class 3000 in 2007.

6 Cyl trucks will run 7100 (7s)

8 Cyl trucks will run class 8000 (8)

And of course you could always run sportsman...


Aaron


The only difference between class 7100 and 3000 (6 cyl) is that 3000 needed to be a suv body from the factory. I'm glad this merge happened. It's about time.

[Chadzu]

The bitd rule book says that track width is measured from brake baking plate to brake backing plate.
Looking over the bitd rules I couldnt find any notice that 300 is gone for '07. New rules for 7200, which makes pretty much anything with a v6 legal.
I am wondering if the 300 guys are going to have to change to 7100 rules or not. My biggest concern is with the stock length leaf springs that the 7100 rules stipulate. I was planning on running some 56" rears, but if the 7100 rules apply then I will have to stick to the stockers. I like the lower weight of the 7100 class. I was going to have to haul around lead bars to make 3750. The wheel base thing is going to be tough for me. I will be under 100" and there is no way I can make it handle like a 120" extra cab truck. I supose I will have to hope that all the 2wd trucks get stuck. At any rate I think I better make my rear bumper really strong:rolleyes:

[wrightracing.net]

One of the problems is BITD is killing the true Class 3. Class 3 was a Full Size Sport utility 4wd. Now the mid size utility guys and 2wd want us full size guys to limit our wheel travel just because they chose a vehical that was unable to get as much wheel travel as we chose. The TTB front suspension is a 26 year old design so why handicap us that chose a better setup.

Now that said Don and Ken Moss are running a solid axle front setup and they still win races. In Class 3 it is a drivers class and non of us even running 20in of travel have won as much as them.

So stop blaiming the longer travel vehicals for your lack of first place wins and build a better race truck with-in the rules and stop changing them to fit your truck.

What is next tire size limits?

That is my 2cents

[Chadzu]

I think that Moss wins races because he busts his butt. He brings the best race car he can every time and has that old bronco pretty well sorted out. It may not have the greatest suspension design, but it works. I don't really care what the rules are, but I would like them to be clear. 12",15", 36" in front doesn't matter to me just make it clear, preferably score and bitd could have the same rules. To me a 300 is 4wd short wheel base utility. ttb, a-arm, solid, doesn't concern me. I think that stock concept on suspension is a good idea, and can keep costs down some. If one design is clearly better than another, well thats racing.
This leads me back to the rules in bitd. Since I will be in a v6 car it looks like I would be in with 7100. As written the 7100 rules are more restrictive than the 3000 rules. I would be mad if I showed up with 15" of front travel and longer than stock rear springs and was DQed because of it. I will contact bitd and see what the official word is going to be.

[tsm1mt]

Tsm you could run your scout in 8 probably but you will get your clock cleaned. There is high attrition in the class so you may out endure them but I havent seen any Scouts that tough yet.


I'm going to get my clock cleaned no matter what - but I won't get the smile wiped off my face. :D

Seems that right about the time I get the Scout dialed in and working well I get one good season out of it before metal fatigue catches up with me and get the bright idea to "improve" something while I'm at it. :)

Next month will kick off the 9th season for this chassis.

If I were smart, I'd build a Bronco. But instead, I'm stubborn.

And, FWIW, you (plural, Don n' Ken) are my heroes.

Who says solid axle SWB 4x4s can't win races?

[Moss2]

Seems that right about the time I get the Scout dialed in and working well I get one good season out of it before metal fatigue catches up with me and get the bright idea to "improve" something while I'm at it. :)

You got that right about fatigue! This years 1000 it took out Atkinson, maybe Barnes, cost us at least an hour and Raffo many hours. All of us had new things break that I think we at least hadn't magnafluxed.
If you really want to frustrate the 2wd class 8 guys just show up at a rainy day short course and enter their class like Don periodically does.

I can see the promotors dilemma. There is really no activity in the class these days and the new vehicles that fit the rules are mismatched to the old stuff. It will certainly put a smile on your face to finish a Nevada or Mexico long course for years to come though. Build something in your budget and drive it to match. I would personally drive/ride just about anything just to do it.

[wrightracing.net]

The Moss Brother's and thier Team Kick Butt.

After years of Race support I hope to have my 1986 Class 3 Bronco ready for the Feb race out at Plaster City.

It was sad to not see any Class 3's at the Dash this year.

Is anyone going to race The Superstition Series?

Come on guys lets race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tsm1mt]

If you really want to frustrate the 2wd class 8 guys just show up at a rainy day short course and enter their class like Don periodically does.


There's a track outside Billings, MT built with the intention of talking CORR (or the "other CORR") into holding a race there, so it's ~1mile long short course. Nice, relatively smooth clay (or at least, good honest hard-pack) track surface.

They've been pushing everyone to build new 2wd trucks to race on the course, and pushing those of us with 4x4s to remove the hubs or driveshafts, etc.

..so the last race of '06 was held in October IIRC.

It rained for 2 days before the race and it was miserable the day of the race.

I was the only guy that showed up with functional 4wd - the rest had gone the "fast and loose" approach with 2wd setups.

When the start flag went down (land rush start), I just sat at the start line and waited a few minutes before I bothered to go.

I think one other racer completed the first lap. The first corner had a couple of casualties.. the second corner a couple more.. after the big jump there was a Class 8 that wound up in the infield instead of making the turn..

It was actually kinda boring.. especially when I had to slow down because I was no longer in a "save the car and make sure you finish, don't get stupid, you're well in the lead" mode, but instead it became, "Hey, we're out of tear-offs and still have some racing to do - better save the visor"

It will certainly put a smile on your face to finish a Nevada or Mexico long course for years to come though. Build something in your budget and drive it to match.

One of these years the stars will align correctly and I'll make the trek and drag along a pit crew. It WILL happen.

[rommel]

The Moss Brother's and thier Team Kick Butt.

Thanks for the props!

[TheWebWheeler]

Thanks for the props!

http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/humm_smilie.gif Being I consider myself part of their Team..........
I must admit I've forgotten who is rommel? :confused:

[Moss2]

http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/humm_smilie.gif Being I consider myself part of their Team..........
I must admit I've forgotten who is rommel? :confused:

I know if you are like me you have gotten used to ignoring the 'junk' people put below all their posts but in this case it is actual useful info that may help you. Rommel is the guy you want with you when you are stuck between Loreto and San Javier or you need something done fast with little to work with.

Ken

[retroblazer]

Looks like we'll finally see a new Class 3 entry race. The Donohoe Toyota LC is entered at Laughlin. We currently have four entries in the class. Ken, your brother said that it was less than a 50/50 chance that you guys would enter. Has anything changed?

[Moss2]

I'm glad Donahoe is getting close to putting that LC in the desert. I dont think we will see it run though at Laughlin unless we get a wild hair later. We all have a lot of work right now and its a lot of extra work and money for those two short days racing. Good luck to Ya!

Ken

[TheWebWheeler]

I know if you are like me you have gotten used to ignoring the 'junk' people put below all their posts but in this case it is actual useful info that may help you. Rommel is the guy you want with you when you are stuck between Loreto and San Javier or you need something done fast with little to work with.

Ken

http://www.tvsquad.com/media/2006/03/homer-doh.jpg Sorry Dave.....

Yeah I guess like Ken Said, I pretty much dont even see sig lines anymore...

Dave is da man! http://www.thewebwheeler.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[151fab]

Bronco and Blazer for sale on http://www.bajaconcepts.com/brokers/ Bronco is linked at rear so would be prerun only but Blazer has mdr wins under it's belt though it's got an I-beam front end. What class would the blazer fall under.

[Moss2]

Bronco and Blazer for sale on http://www.bajaconcepts.com/brokers/What class would the blazer fall under.

Trophy truck or sportsman. I dont think it would qualify as a class 8. I guess if it had a stock frame you could clean up in class 3000 in BITD.