Oil breaking down?

[Dezertpilot]

Ok in my 4runner I have an oil pressure problem. I have swapped in an 87' 7m-ge(Supra inline 3.0 six) into my 86' 4runner. So I change the oil and I run Mobil 1 10w30 full synthetic. At about 4000 miles it seems to me that the oil is breaking down way to early. I have an Autometer Oil pressure guage and I do know that oil pressure should be about 10 psi for every 1k RPM's. Its all fine for the first 3700 miles or so when I rev the motor to 5 or 6 thousand RPM's the oil pressure climbs accordingly. But now since it seems that the oil is breaking down the needle in the guage will go to only a little above 25 psi. Say 35 psi or so. Isnt this bad? I had this problem b4 and I checked my oil and I was low. But I checked it a few times recently and the oil level is fine. I even run Lucas oil stabilizer. Is my oil breaking down too early? I was thinking maybe the oil is getting to hot for some reason and its breaking down quicker than normal. I was thinking about installing an oil temp guage and see how hot it gets and then check Mobil 1's website to see what the optimum oil temp should be. If it gets hotter than normal I was thinkng about running a small oil cooler to see if it remedy's the problem. If not maybe a dedicated oil cooler/fan combo. It just seems that I am having to change the oil to often for the miles I am supposedly able to get out of full synthetic. Waht are your guys opinions on this?

[matt_helton]

i change my oil every 2500 miles.

[phoenixx]

Hey Ryan,
Check out this link. I have been using amsoil for years and have been happy with it. If I found something better, I would use it. Personal choice/opinion.
Hope all is going well and see you at the next race.
Chris

http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests/amsoil_vs_mobil1.aspx

[Dezertpilot]

Chris aren't you a distributor for Amsoil? I am going to do the Mobil 1 this time and then I want to try to some of that Amsoil next time. I usually pick up a case of 6 quarts at a time. I am really anxious to try it next time. Oh and I run 10w30 should I keep it that weight or try a thicker/thinner weight? Maybe 5w30? The motor has about 27k on it now.

[Ryno]

Mobil 1 is pretty much the best off the shelf. If Porsche uses it in all their cars, inlcuding the GT3 and their race cars, I'd put it in my truck, and I do.

It's summertime, so maybe try a heavier weight. A 40wt should do the trick. Mobil1 is the only oil I've used that comes out like it wasn't even used, a nice golden color.

[jeff]

Mobil 1 is standard fill in all sorts of high end performance vehicles... Dodge Viper, Chevrolet Corvette, Mercedes Benz / McLaren SLR, all Porsche vehicles, Ford Mustang Cobra R, all Aston Martin cars... you get the point. If there was a problem with the oil those engines would find it. If a 9000rpm turbo motor can't kill the oil I'd say your Toyota has other more serious problems. Me thinks you've got a bigger problem to take care of. It sounds like changing the oil is a bandaid repair. An idea would be to send a test sample to an analysis company... they can tell you what sort of state the oil is in when you drain it. That might give you a clue as to whats wrong. It's pretty cheap and in this scenario would be worth every penny.

If you want more information about oil than you'd ever care to read about try www.bobistheoilguy.com - there is days of reading on that site and almost all of it is about lubricating fluids. There is some VERY interesting things that they've found while testing certain products. Might be worth a look.

Aloha

[Dezertpilot]

Maybe my oil filter stops filtering after 3k miles. I just read on the side of the Fram HP1 that to change your oil and filter every 3 k miles. I was figuring that since I am running synthetic the drain intervals might be longer. I think I am gonna try another type of filter. I really think I am just going to run the reusable, cleanable filter that gets advertised on this site and change at 3k miles and then I think I should be on the safe side. If this problem keeps occuring I think I might send in a sample to a lab.

[ChuckH]

Try not using Lucas oil stabilizer with your Mobil 1, maybe use a thicker blend in the summer

Check this out
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Truck_SUV_5W-40.aspx

[steveG]

It does sound like maybe you've got another problem, but if your oil pressure drops after 3700 miles, why not just change it sooner?
Also, I know a lot of people swear by brand "x" super oils, but how does it do with conventional oil changed every 2500 miles like matt suggested? I'm not going to say that all those performance oils aren't worth the money for some people and some applications, but I've driven a lot of cars and put A LOT of miles on conventional oil and never had one lubrication related problem. At work we service thousands of cars that use conventional oil. Many of them have 200,000 plus miles and the most common thread between them is regular oil changes.

You guys might find this interesting: I had a customer come into the shop last week and request an oil filter change on his 2002 Explorer with about 32,000 miles. That's right, an oil filter change. His supplier told him the Amsoil engine oil he was using was a 25,000 mile oil and all he had to do was replace the filter every 3,000 or 3500 miles or something like that. He only had about 18,000 miles on the oil, so I went ahead and had the filter replaced like he asked. Just for kicks I took a drop of oil from his filter and put it on a white cardboard sample card. What color was the oil? BLACK with lots of gritty deposits. The customer took the card to ask his supplier if that was ok. I get a kick out of stuff like that.

[Dezertpilot]

Yes I have always changed my oil at 3k or so but since I switched to Mobil 1 10w30 I was thinking that I could go longer thats what synthetics are for right? To go longer b4 the oil breaks down. But now I am going to go back to a 3k oil change. I still might run the Mobil 1 or I might change to some Amsoil. But I am REALLY thinking about changing my oil filter to a reusable one that I can clean and monitor when ever I feel like. Oh and next time Ill change to a 5w40 and skip on using the Lucas Oil stabilizer. Tnat is some thick ****.

[steveG]

Maybe this has changed, but last time I checked reusable filters didn't filter as well as a premium brand paper filter (I use WIX).

Why can't you monitor a paper filter? You can buy a tool to cut them open for inspection.

[Dezertpilot]

Really you have heard that they dont filter as much? You hear dor hard evidence? And what tool are u talking about? I have been using fram HP1 for the last two oil changes.
I really like those cool reusable ones but if u know they dont filter as well......

[steveG]

Ask truckers if they use reusable filters on their 100 to 200,000 dollar trucks.

As far as Fram goes, they have great advertising.

[ChuckH]

Buy a good Fram or other top brand filter and you will be fine.

Filter cutters
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/to/oilfiltertools.html

Open them with each oil change and you have a better chance of catching your engine before it blows, if you have an expensive engine you should be doing oil analysis testing with each change

If your worried throw in a new oil pump and an oil cooler, or try the SUV-truck mobil1

[steveG]

If you do end up buying the tool, just for kicks, go buy a few different brands of filters for the same application and cut them open. Comparing the insides of oil filters is very enlightening.

[Dezertpilot]

So just for ***** and giggles ChuckH I can add an oil cooler...but what would that do for me? And I dont know about adding a new oil pump it seems to work fine and uh that could be costly. Unless I do it myself but I sometimes are too lazy.

[ChuckH]

Maybe you notice the oil pressure on hot days being lower, it couldn't hurt.

Really though i bet everything is ok, your not going to blow it up with the pressure you have.

Are you setting down if not please do, you may be suffering from automotive hypochondriac syndrome, it has been known to strike most often at the end of races, every little sound you hear you think something is wrong, it can also strike without warning to anyone who is into cars-trucks and performance, i happen to offer help at the low rate of $150.00 per hour if you feel overwelmed by automotive hypochondriac syndrome

[Dezertpilot]

Haha Chuck that was good.....nah oil pressure doesnt really seem to change much on hot days just the temp. Id like to get an oil temp guage to see though what the fluctuation in temp is during the different times I drive the 4runner.

[ChuckH]

Denial is a bad sign, go ahead and put on a oil temp gauge, if you still feel overwhelmed by AHS contact me ASAP ;)

[GASPORTS4EVR]

Here is the solution, AMSOIL baby!! I installed the AMSOIL (BMK 13) Dual Bypass filter system in my GMC, my 20W-50W synthetic oil travels through a full-flow 45 micron filter, once the oil temp reaches 180 degrees, the (1-micron) by-pass filter kicks in, together, both filters filter my (9) quarts of oil in aprox. (5) minutes, virtually eliminating engine wear. I never change my oil, however I change my filters every 15K miles, my engine runs cooler and idles better than it ever did..

Chris

[Dezertpilot]

Looks neat so do u just run the oil filter relocation kit with one of those plates that screws to where the stock oil filter goes. Then run your out and in lines accordingly. What does a setup like that cost that you have and where can I purchase one at? I have a 1987 7m-ge non-turbo so they might only have gm/ford kits available? But what does the bypass filter do? Does it only work after the oil hits 180* and then stops when or if it gets cooler? But Jeez and I bet you are running full syn Amsoil and @ 9 quarts that is pretty pricey. How/why is your system so big? Is that how big the oil capacity is stock?

[GASPORTS4EVR]

Prerun, the kit runs about $250.00, + about $5.50 for each quart of synthetic oil used.. The kit includes a trick 3-piece plate with replaces your stock filter location and can be installed on any type of vehicle. When the oil is good and hot (180 degrees) the (1) micron filter kicks in, and remains flowing as most vehicles run at least that temperature. As for as the cost per quart goes, you see I never change my oil, only change filters @ 15K miles. and add about 1 1/2 quarts to top off the system, my stock (6) quart pan grew to (9) quarts because I re-located my filters to the bed of the truck.. Now on race cars, I perform a full system drain every (3) races, it's pretty cool, the oil drains clean every time, and the motors run about 30 degrees cooler..if you are interested give me a call and I'll hook you up, I feel good because I am doing the best for my motor, as for the size of the filters, that particular size is reccomended for V8 motors, keeps the oil running fast and cool..
Chris
Toll Free @ 866-606-5371

[Dezertpilot]

Ill be giving you a call in the near future. What type of lines are those and cant I relocate it to really anywhere I want? I have a 4runner so maybe in the rear by my cell or under the body somewhere. That is one trick setup...very cool.And it also comes with those trick reusable fittings correct?

[ntsqd]

I've yet to see anything from AMSOIL that impressed me. They might have a good product, but their advertising comes off as snake oil. Reminds me of those ads where they run an engine w/o the oil pan after adding some super secret goop that no one else knows about. Yea, right. Seems to me that if they had something that other vendors like SWEPCO, Redline, etc. would also offer similar product.

All but one of the filter problems I've had were traceable to Fram filters. They no longer rank as a quality filter in my book. Wix, Purolator, and AC currently do.

Approximately 1/3 of the heat generated in an engine ends up in the oil. Those thermal cycles may or may not change the looks of the oil, but they darn sure can change the chemistry of the oil. Multi-viscocity oils are doing something that borders on being against the laws of Physics. They can only do it for so long before the thermal cycling breaks down the chemistry causing the heat generated increase in viscosity. Filtering, even thru excessively small media, is not going to restore that property. If you want to know what's going on with the oil you need to send it to a lab for analysis. Visual inspection means less than nothing because it provokes a false sense of security.

BTW, the 10 psi per 1k rpms rule directly applies to SBC's only. Fords like to run a little different as does every other engine out there. So it's a decent generic rule of thumb but not an absolute rule.

[phoenixx]

Amsoil has testing and data displayed on their website in fairly plain english. Lots of comparisons...No BS. They were the first synthetic oil manufacturer and others like castrol, Mobil 1, etc...have followed. Can't see that Amsoil was taking too much business away until they heard from commercial trucking and other high use entities that used it that they will pay the premium price for the savings and performance they see out of it. If it didn't work it wouldn't have been copied.
This is not to say that there is no alternatives. IF you are happy with the performance of what you have then....
I have seen better mileage, less wear and less oil changes.
Currently use series 2000 20-50 race oil due to the higher RPM's Im running with the gearing difference. I do not however let it go past 3-4000 without a filter change. Will sometimes change more often during race season because of the amount of harder use I get when using the 4Runner as a chase vehicle plus the recreational use. Usually do a comlete drain, filter and fill at around 10000 miles interval.

[Dezertpilot]

Chris what do u mean 10k miles? are u talking about dropping the pan? When I do my oil change I do filter and oil...isnt that it?

[jeff]

Ask AMSOIL why some of their oils don't meet required API specs for use in Diesel engines. I'm not really pro or anti AMSOIL, but to blindly believe their hype without knowing the truth behind their product isn't smart.

I'd spend the $20.00 bucks and get an analysis done before I spent money on anything else!

Aloha

[Dezertpilot]

I see what you are saying Jeff......I think I will do the $20 oil analysis test on my next oil after I do the oil change.

[GASPORTS4EVR]

I've yet to see anything from AMSOIL that impressed me. They might have a good product, but their advertising comes off as snake oil. Reminds me of those ads where they run an engine w/o the oil pan after adding some super secret goop that no one else knows about. Yea, right. Seems to me that if they had something that other vendors like SWEPCO, Redline, etc. would also offer similar product.

All but one of the filter problems I've had were traceable to Fram filters. They no longer rank as a quality filter in my book. Wix, Purolator, and AC currently do.

Approximately 1/3 of the heat generated in an engine ends up in the oil. Those thermal cycles may or may not change the looks of the oil, but they darn sure can change the chemistry of the oil. Multi-viscocity oils are doing something that borders on being against the laws of Physics. They can only do it for so long before the thermal cycling breaks down the chemistry causing the heat generated increase in viscosity. Filtering, even thru excessively small media, is not going to restore that property. If you want to know what's going on with the oil you need to send it to a lab for analysis. Visual inspection means less than nothing because it provokes a false sense of security.

BTW, the 10 psi per 1k rpms rule directly applies to SBC's only. Fords like to run a little different as does every other engine out there. So it's a decent generic rule of thumb but not an absolute rule. I remember those advertising segments with the running motor w/o the oil pan, I think it was Slick 50 or something which is a Chlorine based oil and when mixed with high quality synthetics, allways broke down fast.. AMSoil really doesn't advertise much, basically it's a multi level marketing business and is sold through independent dealers, they build their oil with the finest ingredients available, therfore it it's not the most inexpensive oil on the market.. Since I have been a dealer, I have been very impressed with their loyalty to all dealers, they have provided me with all of the tools I need, including an oil pump and oil analysis kit which I use on my engines, my customers engines, as well as the race cars I sponsor, it's pretty cool, I take readings after X number of miles or after each race and send it to the lab, I have stacks of positive lab results.. I was skeptical for a long time, then tried the oil for awhile and actually noticed positive differences.. It's been a great side job and I get paid to hang out at races and satisfy people..

[GASPORTS4EVR]

Chris what do u mean 10k miles? are u talking about dropping the pan? When I do my oil change I do filter and oil...isnt that it?
Pan allways stays in, I change the filter elements on top them off at 15K miles..

[GASPORTS4EVR]

Ask AMSOIL why some of their oils don't meet required API specs for use in Diesel engines. I'm not really pro or anti AMSOIL, but to blindly believe their hype without knowing the truth behind their product isn't smart.

I'd spend the $20.00 bucks and get an analysis done before I spent money on anything else!

AlohaThe AMSOIL diesel oils EXCEED the requirements from the API, If my memory serves me correct, the government requires a CL1 certification, AMSOIL synthetics are certified as a CL4, damn good question Jeff, plese let me know if you have any additional info. in regards to the API and the AMSOIL diesel oil.. I'd like to know..

[Beachracer]

I was out of town for this but I'M Back, Amsoil is a good oil , Mobil 1 is a good oil, but the real deal is what will you use your oil for.."everyone has one " is true too...
The paper oil filter is just that, paper ! and paper does not flow oil , true and factual,it flows thru if it breaks down the paper material, and then it deteriates to fast to measure.So a HP1 is good for a little while , 700 to 1100 miles depending on oil and pressure. oil pressure can be limited by the flow of a oil filter. Amsoil filter and Trufilter
are different animals. Amsoil --oil is 12-14 microns in size and Amsoil filter is 1 micron and that cant go ,but the bypass filtering lets it move oil thru its bypass so it kinda goes 2 ways. Trufilter is a knock-off and the material used for filtering is about as good as paper,measured to be about 45 micron and for the price inferior comes cheap.
Oil needs to be stonger not slicker, and a high TBN level, the ingredients break down is measured by TBN -total base number, and a nuetral # is 7, below is acidic and above is where you get strength. synthetic does not mean "drive long time" it has ratings too
and your oil may be breaking down. Not a commercial post but Pure Power! has a TBN
of 12-14 depending on mix,and you will see some top names running it, and some new names running it in the near future,and its not synthetic , and its certified 7500 mi.
sorry so long -but man oh man !

[Dezertpilot]

So pure power oil is a good choice then? So what kind of filter could I get that would be a good stock replacement? I can run up to an HP1 in size. I want to run the best oil filter possible.

[Beachracer]

Pure Power ! is the original Lifetime Oil Filter company, they make oil , fuel filters, remotes filters, block offs. They are a racing company that builds a great product or vs versa, the filter comes from the military contract Pure Power has been suppling for 10 years, the oil has been military issue for 20.the whole line of products is available at Kartek and I and the Pure Power! teams of racers will be in Primm, yeah I race too..
we just finished a great weekend in Offshore @ Huntington,Formula Drift in Irwindale,IHRA,Bigfoot.

[prerunner1499]

Ok homies, quit pissing on eachothers shoes about oil.. Here is a real test of alot of oils, the numbesrs speak for themselves. shoose wisely. I did!

read it. learn it. live it! click here====== > http://www.vwtrendsweb.com/tech/0304vwt_oil/index.html

[Beachracer]

Great article , it puts in real perspective but did not test the specialty market oils or racing oils that we all see in desert racing, cool though.

[Project1500]

Chris 45 Micron thats pretty high...then down to a 1 Micron, if oil could even go through that....I doubt Amsoil's claims

[ntsqd]

Old thread.

To put some perspective on just what a Micron is, 1 micron (aka micrometer) is 1/1000th of a millimeter or 1 micron = .000039 inch
When engine bearing clearences are in the range of .001" to .004" that seems like overly excessive filtration. Hope you are regulating & monitoring oil pressure downstream of that filter.
BTW: the now famous internet Oil Filter Study (http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/).

I recently bought a turbo '86 yota 2wd for a DD. (Yeeehaaa!) The PO used Mobile 1 everywhere. I managed to break the 1-2 shift fork & had to pull the trans. Draining that 1 wasn't impressive at all. What was less impressive was that the trans was nearly dry when I got it pulled apart. Contrast that with the W-56 & t/c I bought from a LocosMocos who had used Redline in them. Drained them and split the t/c off the trans about 4 months ago. That trans is STILL oozing pink stuff. The Redline oil wasn't particulalrly thick, but it sure clings to metal better than the Mobile 1 did.

[John F2000]

Maybe my oil filter stops filtering after 3k miles. I just read on the side of the Fram HP1 that to change your oil and filter every 3 k miles. I was figuring that since I am running synthetic the drain intervals might be longer. I think I am gonna try another type of filter. I really think I am just going to run the reusable, cleanable filter that gets advertised on this site and change at 3k miles and then I think I should be on the safe side. If this problem keeps occuring I think I might send in a sample to a lab.

What is the pressure when you change your oil and then after you think the "oil is breaking down?"

your filter is not going to just stop filtering, unless it completely clogs. If that is the case you have other problems. We run the HP1 on $70,000 motors with no problems.

Oil isnt just going to breakdown unless you are getting fuel in it from bad rings, or it gets contaminated by water. If your engine is running so hot it is damaging the oil, you have other problems.

30 psi is not bad, depending on the motor. My twin turbo big block starts at around 40 psi and when it is hot and you rev it, it acutually drops to around 30. Big race motor with alot of clearance are even known to have lower psi. The theory that psi should climb with rpm is soley individual motor dependant. 460 race motors typically hold the psi at a constant and if they are clearanced, when you rev them they actually drop psi with rpm, because the motor is being tweeked. In another motor I run a blown 572 Chev, the psi starts at around 90 and after sustained runs drops to around 60. Different psi on different applications.

The only thing that is (oil related not mechanical) which will maintain higher psi's at higher temps or run time is thicker oil. Other than that you may not have a problem.

Also, if your oil is clean between changes, and filter has no debris, no reason to change it so often unless it is in race conditions. The reason the oil companies and filter companies say to change so often is to make more money.

[errege]

So, anyone knows what could be the cause(s) that the oil breaks down too early? I also have a 4Runner (´87) with the motor completely rebuilt recently and noticed that the oil turned black way to soon (my actual oil/filter change dates run around between a 4-5 months period, as I don´t put too many miles on it between changes). I usually use Castrol 20W-50W.

Saludos
R. González

[Dezertpilot]

I have since sold that vehicle. I questioned alot of things that went on with it. Some things were half-assed and some were really cool, I think that I worried alot and maybe some things werent quite setup correctly. I have boughten a 2002 Tundra and have the stock guages in their and I am much happier and dont worry any more!
I still am using Mobil 1 but now in a 5w30. In the future I am going to be using a remote mounted dual filtration unit and my oil changes should be extended twice to about 6k or so.

[Dezertpilot]

Anybody know what happened to last post?:confused:

[Dezertpilot]

There it goes again.....is their something wrong with the forum? Or is it my computer.....hhhmmmnnnnn

[baja stu]

I’ve used Mobil 1 in my Chevy 2500HD and changed my oil every 7000 miles and no problems. I even sent in a sample of oil at 3000 miles and at 7000 miles to Johnson Machinery (CAT) in Riverside,CA. Each report came back super good. The reports show the microns of contaminates and of the metals in the oil. It will even tell you if the oil has stated to break down. I think its $10.00 per sample. If you need any info send me an e-mail.

[John F2000]

So, anyone knows what could be the cause(s) that the oil breaks down too early? I also have a 4Runner (´87) with the motor completely rebuilt recently and noticed that the oil turned black way to soon (my actual oil/filter change dates run around between a 4-5 months period, as I don´t put too many miles on it between changes). I usually use Castrol 20W-50W.

Saludos
R. González

The main reason for oil turning black, "prematurally" is fuel in the oil. This is either caused by too rich of a mixture or rings going bad.

[errege]

The main reason for oil turning black, "prematurally" is fuel in the oil. This is either caused by too rich of a mixture or rings going bad.

That gives me an aproach of what I suspected was happening, because as the oxigen sensor was recently changed, black smoke sometimes shows through the muffler anyway.

Thanks.
Ricardo G.

[OldStroppeTeam]

So, anyone knows what could be the cause(s) that the oil breaks down too early? I also have a 4Runner (´87) with the motor completely rebuilt recently and noticed that the oil turned black way to soon (my actual oil/filter change dates run around between a 4-5 months period, as I don´t put too many miles on it between changes). I usually use Castrol 20W-50W.

Saludos
R. González

If you just had your engine rebuilt, it could also be moly assembly lube. See what it looks like after a couple of oil changes...