Starting orders?? SCORE Desert Racing is changing, should we stick with the old ways?

[pciscott]

5 years ago if you saw 7 Trophy Trucks we would say wow! Class 1 has grown by leaps and bounds also, 20 cars was a great entry in the past. Now with 30 plus Trophy Trucks and 40 plus class 1 cars a bad draw is Suicide! The amount of chances you have to take during an event to keep up with the front guys makes this sport as much luck as skill with over 70 cars racing for the overall. This is one of the reasons why you do not see guys like Ashley and Smith winning 6 in a row, and I doubt it will ever happen again with the current starting procedures. The competition level has gone up, the technology has gone up, and the cost has gone up. The problem is it is a role of the dice how we start. With all the money we are spending in these top classes an extra day at the races doing a qualifier would not be that big a deal. The town would get the hotels filled an extra day, the guys that are stepping up can prove there equipment is the best instead of being lucky at the draw, and the class 1 guys would get a chance to mix it up with the trucks so we would see who is the fastest. Now if I had drawn first off the line for Primm, I may have not thought this way. The Odds are just against getting good starting positions with 70 overall vehicles. This is just a question for racers and supporters of our great sport, not sour grapes. It would be great to get feedback from some Trophy Truck and Class 1 guys? Have a great day, and yes my Primm draw stinks!

[scoobs]

Your right the best way is a qualifier. When BITD does them it like an extra day or racing. But getting the BLM to allow it is like pulling teeth. You just better hope for rain like last year. So many people droped after the second lap plus there would be no dust. Good luck.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

The time has come for qualifying! Scott, you nailed it, especially for races like Laughlin, San Felipe and Primm – which have become sprints. The opportunity exists to broaden the scope of these races and generate additional revenues for the promoters in the process. Many of the Class 1 racers would welcome the opportunity to start ahead of slower traffic in a bid for the overall win. The method that BITD employs (starting the top 20 only in qualifying order) is flawed, but a move in the right direction. Qualify everyone in the race!

Another added benefit of qualifying is in the media coverage, where our races are often covered as “special interest events” or “human interest stories” and not legitimate automotive races. Qualifying would help to change the perception from that of a bunch of crazy cowboys in their Dunebuggies venturing across Mexico or ravaging the Nevada desert to that of a legitimate race. I for one would welcome qualifying eagerly.

[ShaneR]

I like your thinking Scott!
Our start is pretty bad to, 32 class 1 something like 60th overall, 1/2 an hour of solid dust behind the leader. It could help us by letting the people who are going to break, break in front of us, but that is alot of dust to run in at any speed.
I really like the qualifing, except the McMillan 1000! With so many class 1 cars running with the trophy trucks, not just a few like in the years past, I think the qualifing is a great way to even up the field, or go by finishing postion or something, anything to give everyone an even chance at the overall win instead of the luck of the draw.
The qualifing runs add another pretty intense deminsion(sp) to the race to!

[murphco]

last year with the rain it was muddy and dusty.qualifying would seem to be the next step to keep up with the amount of entries.primm would be a good course to do it,say start finish to pit c.

[MSS]

As soon as we get in a class where can start up front, people want to change it..

I am not opposed to any of these ideas except an extra day at the races would be hard for some people. An easy way to solve this problem would be to mix the drawing for TT and Class 1 BUT still keep the classes seperate. On the other hand, this might take away a lot of the wheel to wheel battles that each class could possibly have.

19th off the line @ PRIMM for us.... I guess it is going to be "back to front" for SMD... :)

[scoobs]

They probably could do qualifying after contingency.

[desertracer]

I would agree on the qualifying idea for Class 1 and TT. Primm being our first score class 1 race we decided to take a rear start for a number of reasons. First was the obvious one that we are not as fast as the top guys in the class so why should we start in front of them and possibly hold them up. There are other teams who are starting higher up in the class 1 field that we are quite comparable to speed wise. I understand that they want the better starting position but there has to be some sort of dividing line. This late in the season people are fighting for points, positions matter and they shouldn't have to deal with possibly slower or newer racers. Qualifying could allow teams to establish themselves in a series and make us all a bit closer to a professional series like Nascar , Irl etc. Why should a new guy have the opportunity to start in front of the seasoned vets without proving themselves? I think the system has worked for many years but with entries up as high as they are right now, this would be a welcomed change for many teams. I just can't help but to think of Nascar in this situation, faster teams start up front and have better chances of winning. If it gets rained out, start off points standings. Sometimes it isn't always fair but at least it establishes a baseline.

[negro3030]

I dont know if this has been asked before but how could you do a qualifying run in races like the 500 or 1000, what kind of track would it be, what elements? I know that certain cars handle better in some elements than others, what if you got a guy that wants to run a conservative race and still runs fast, what does he need to do if he does not plan on being the fastest off the line and yet is running for a top 3, just a thought.

WARNING: THIS USER ONLY ACCEPTS POSITIVE FEEDBACK AND COMMENTS THAT ARE INFORMATIVE AND IN A POSITIVE NATURE.

[negro3030]

Also, isn´t passing just a part of the hardcore nature of this extreme sport? I always here how racers are the toughest in the world. I feel that it is just a part of the sport and part of what makes racers heroes to many people and shows how tough racers really are, just a thought once again.

[ShaneR]

I dont know if this has been asked before but how could you do a qualifying run in races like the 500 or 1000, what kind of track would it be, what elements? I know that certain cars handle better in some elements than others, what if you got a guy that wants to run a conservative race and still runs fast, what does he need to do if he does not plan on being the fastest off the line and yet is running for a top 3, just a thought.

WARNING: THIS USER ONLY ACCEPTS POSITIVE FEEDBACK AND COMMENTS THAT ARE INFORMATIVE AND IN A POSITIVE NATURE.

Just like in NASCAR you don't race like you qualify. You can not duplicate all the different terrians you encounter in a race in a short qualifing run, just like you can't draft in NASCAR qualifing, it is a give and take as to what the qualifing shows of the driver and vehicle
.
Someone who wants to run a steady pass can still do that in a qualifing run and start behind some hard chargers that may break in the race and still start ahead of some slower cars because with so many cars and trucks racing for the overall anymore your steady pace still has to be a pretty fast steady pace to win or be in the top 3 overall, so your race isn't changed by this.

[S of SMD]

Scott,
I would like to be a TT driver but I doubt if Matt will let me drive unless we have a 2 hour lead. So I guess I will respond as an owner (will someone please rent me a helicopter for the races so I can do something?).

I like the process of vetting new ideas. But with out researching, and I know there are guys on this board who really dig and get good facts (read Ramsay), which I hope they will do on this issue.

I think we need to see a 2 year comparison of starting order vs. finish order race by race.

My gut tells me we will see that guys starting in front don’t always win. Or even do podium race in and out.

I think you will also see many front starts are 1st to break or have significant down time..

Bottom line I think we need a little more data before we say current system is flawed.

I am with Matt, an extra day to qualify could make the difference for a team like ours. M&D have school and jobs, S is to slow to qualify, plus he has to work as many days and hours as possible to support TT Drug Habit.

How about Land Rush Starts TT's and 1's now that would be a rush!

[pciscott]

My question has flaws and was not meant to impact the season we are racing now. Where to have qualifying? How does Score pay for the extra help? What do we use for scoring the effort as watches seam a little out date? What type of terrain are we using, tight or wide open? What distance? How much time between cars so the dust can clear and be the same for everyone? How do we determine who goes first as the road will not be burned in or tore up depending on position you qualify? Do we mix the Trophy Truck and Class 1 or keep them separate? Do we allow all the classes? Do you have to run the car as set up for race? Impound? There are many other questions that would need to be answered before any changes could be implemented. I just feel the role of the dice is a little out of date with the amount of entries. This is not a thread to compare Score against any other Promoter this is just a question do you think our current system is the best for the number of cars we have, Score being the dominator with the fast cars in numbers. I also feel TV would be able to set up a bunch of cameras in a controlled area and can some footage of the cars they miss. The winners sometimes do not make it on the program because they started so far back the Helo crew and ground spots have moved on to keep up with the race. I also think that every drawing should be done out of a hat like this years Baja 1000 will be as some names tend to have too much luck on the computer drawing and a good hacker could change the outcome. I am not suspect of how Score runs their races, but do see odds that seem off balance at times. Having the drawing at a Fair meeting or off-road shop would be a good tool to promote your business; I hear from a close friend that the Baja 1000 drawing will be off the hook! Again my favorite race is the Baja 1000, so my efforts are married to Score as long as they promote races and I can come up with the effort to keep going I will continue to race Score. Jones motor sports and PCI racing also support Best in the Desert and some of their qualifying issues are flawed as well, dust being the major factor. I feel the course should be cleared before each vehicle goes off and if you break you have to pull over and watch. Turning to the promoters channel can get this info to the right place. Brainstorming towards the future of our sport is where I would like this thread to go. Keep it positive please!

[pciscott]

Steve I know you are the guy to do the survey, you know your way around a computer better than most. Besides that you might think of selling off the Vegetable business because the sponsor money will start flowing hard now that you have a Trophy Truck! The only problem is the direction the money will flow:) Welcome to the wonderful world of Horsepower! I know you have taught the boys well and they will do great in the new truck. That truck just looks fast every time I see it! Good luck and your homework is to have the statistics posted by Monday. Have a great weekend!

[green787]

I feel that the line up should be based on a drawing from a typical rotating raffle drum for the first race of the season and then based on points standings for the remaining races....

[scoobs]

How about the first one to show up at the starting line?:D

[racer951]

Danny you almost nailed it. Another element of qualifying would be less passing (maybe a more boring race, but more professional appearing). There would also be a return to dynasties. Think of Mac/Freeman starting 1st off the line every race. Or Robby in TT, etc. Time gaps would be comparable to Formula 1 in how the faster qualifying cars start in front and gaps naturally form throughout the pack from the top down.

And what's this rain out thing? We don't let rain, snow, lightning, darkness, or fire stop us from doing what we do. That's part of what makes this stuff so cool.

[Chase 2]

I know this is going against the grain of this thread but I say keep it the way it is, and has been.

Did you guys forget Rubby and the last 500 already? How uncommon is it for the winning team to be the team who had the best starting position and didn’t have a problem. Take a fast guy in qualifying and give him a dust free course it will make it just that much easier for him to check out. The current system actually gives more teams the opportunity to win, doesn’t it?

Scott, would you rather have Rubby cruising two minuets in front of you, or pushing hard 5 minuets behind you on the clock but two minuets ahead of you on race time?

Additionally, as chase/pit crew I would dread to see qualifying. If you did a qualifying race, Score would need to impound before the start (like in the real good old days) or the poor crews would be up all night thrashing to change from a qualifying set up to a race set up.

It is an interesting idea, but as I said I’m going to have to vote no. By the way Scott, your posts would be much more reader friendly if you were to use paragraph breaks.

[green787]

Also I think it would be a great thing to have the starting line up raffle at a FAIR meeting or at the Offroad Expo and make a big deal out of it... I really think that qualifying racing is just too complex to deal with...too many issues...I only see it as a way to limit the number of racers when offroad racing gets so popular that they can't run 500 vehicles in a given race. I plan to run the 1000 this year, but in my class 7s there are only 3 trucks max. so I am not passionate about the subject.... I am passionate about having a straight axle class...but that is off the subject...

[jimpat]

To start with: class one and TT should be on the course alone.
Can you even imagine the mess that we'll have when we (class 8) start after them?
About the 7 and stock trucks that well be lapped 2 or 3 times by the TT and other faster vehicles?
Qualifying? It would take a long time to run 68 vehicles (present entry in TT and CL.1)
and what type of course should be used?
Maybe a 2.5 mile run like the old riverside speedway when we ran heavy metal classes, with jumps and whoops and other equalizers. One warm up lap and then one green flag lap.
If possible qualify a week before the race so if damage occurs, it can be repaired.
No impounds, the classes are wide open and the power plants can be sealed after qualifying to prevent use of qualifying only motors.
Not an easy solution but Scott is correct: something has to be done!!!!
I fear a demo derby coming up at Primm.
only my humble opinion
jim patelli

[ChuckH]

They should alternate years or races for TTs and class 1s starting first, I bet class 1 cars would be winning the overall more often, Of course they would need a rule against taking the body of your TT to race in class 1

A bad draw in TT will hurt your chance of a overall, but what about the guys with a bad class 1 draw, passing 60 plus racers for a overall is a impossible task

[jamoffroad]

the to many cars is not true but what we due at prime and laughin is probly a better way to race with the fast car in thier own race more like nascar the pros(tt-class1 ) on sunday the slower classes on sat like busch . as for qualifing that would be good for the fast guys but i have friends going to race 1000 in his toy (pre-runner) for fun he asked for rear start in class 1 , so the Bitd way is pretty good their are only maybe 15 - 20 really fast teams that live or die for wins. back in the day we always had big car counts and they just raced . not prefect but its are way. just my to cents....

[jimpat]

qualifying just for races like Primm and Laughlin with more than 2 laps.
Longer races like the 500 or 1000 are not a problem as the faster classes start first and in most cases starting order is not as important

[Dave_G]

Scott,
Maybe all the TT and class 1 drivers could compete in a kind of "celebrity" poker tournament at the hotel on Friday night to determine their starting order for Saturday. Got to admit, that might make it really interesting.

LOL!

[Jerry Zaiden]

Scott,
Maybe all the TT and class 1 drivers could compete in a kind of "celebrity" poker tournament at the hotel on Friday night to determine their starting order for Saturday. Got to admit, that might make it really interesting.

LOL!


LOL :) That was funny but would be fun to watch!

Now this brings the question why do the TT's start before the class one cars? What if a class one car driver has a better qualifying time then a TT, should they be able to start first and have no dust? ( just stiring the pot )


It reminds me of getting let out of a helocopter into fresh snow with 70 people all on snow boards. The first one gets all the good powder the last one gets nothing unless all the first guys fall. Now if i am with a bunch of top pro's who are better than me how do I ever have the chance to qualify to go first if we have to qualify to go first? (I hope this makes sense).

[jimpat]

LOL :) That was funny but would be fun to watch!

Now this brings the question why do the TT's start before the class one cars? What if a class one car driver has a better qualifying time then a TT, should they be able to start first and have no dust? ( just stiring the pot )


It reminds me of getting let out of a helocopter into fresh snow with 70 people all on snow boards. The first one gets all the good powder the last one gets nothing unless all the first guys fall. Now if i am with a bunch of top pro's who are better than me how do I ever have the chance to qualify to go first if we have to qualify to go first? (I hope this makes sense).


it seems that in most endeavors everybody gets their 15 minutes in the sun.
First you have to pay your dues!!!!!
When you race with pros, after a while you become one.
You learn, get to know people which makes getting needed parts easier and cheaper, you get at first small sponsors, then it all falls together.
Just remember that if you cant afford to spend the money that your competitors do, get in a less demanding class.
It takes knowledge, dedication, hard work but most of all it takes money to be in the top.
Some people race in the TT or class one just to be there for the prestige(?)and clutter up the course.....

[Toykeeper]

I'm certainly for drawing from a hat. This is the first race in recent memory that we actually got a decent draw, the computer system seems a little biased, where there is less question to seeing the pick in person. Qualifing is fine, if the playing field can be fair to all, no dust, etc. Mean while we will gladly take our win at Primm from the front and be happy.

[twillis]

How about the first one to show up at the starting line?:D

How about the highest bidder once you enter the staging area? We'll accept offers of cash, tools, hot food, used parts, livestock, sorority girls, etc... At SCORE-International our goal is to Make You Happy.

[GlamisGurlie]

Even though SNORE doesn't have the big $$$ fast guys running with us (ok maybe sometimes), for the last 36 years we have done our start position drawing out of a hat for each class ... makes it fair and the driver's get to see right then and there where they are at ... I am all for putting the TT's & Class 1's together and drawing if it's out of a drum or hat - computer results can be altered ... yes there are slower vehicles in each class, but I feel it might make them become more competitive knowing they have the chance to start more equally instead of always in the back... if they know they are slower they can either ask for a RS when they register for the race or GET OUTTA DA WAY lol ...

I'm not too sure about the whole qualifying thing - it has its positives and negatives, especially where the BLM are concerned - but again, the slower cars aren't going to try qualifying because they know that as long as the fast guys don't break or roll, they're not going to make it and alas, back to the rear of the pack they go... You would also have to mark the engine like Casey does at tech so they can't swap a "qualifying" engine in for a "race" one - that would be a must... there are a lot of factors to put together to entertain qualifying at a SCORE race... maybe the powers that be will read this and offer their .02 cents?

Just my humble opinion :D

[motojojo7s]

Scott,
Maybe all the TT and class 1 drivers could compete in a kind of "celebrity" poker tournament at the hotel on Friday night to determine their starting order for Saturday. Got to admit, that might make it really interesting.

LOL!

:) HaHa...my money would be on Bobby Baldwin!

[schlosmk]

If you did a poker game, wouldn't the Herbst brother have conflict of interest?

[la2baja]

I think there are quite a few great ideas being thrown around here. I would suggest that TT's and 1's be combined again. In the old days (early 90's) the classes were seperated. This was a time when Nissan, Toyota, Dodge, Ford, Chevy had large, LARGE, chunks of money being thrown at factory teams. Class 1 indies couldn't compete with the factory trucks and their huge support systems.
Times have changed. Multi million $$ factory budgets no longer dominate the TT world. Yes there will always be teams with huge budgets and teams with much smaller budgets, thats how it goes! With the $$$ invested in class 1 cars and the larger HP trend with the LS1 and other 500+ hp motors in buggies the power to weight ratio ussually gives the buggy an advantage. Look up finishing times for any race in the last several years. You'll find that TT's and class 1's are very evenly matched. You have to take into account that these buggies are deep, deep in TT dust and still making these times. Imagine how often a class 1 would overall a race with a fair shot at clean air.
OK, enough of pushing my own agenda on you.

As far as qualifying. I like the idea. Maybe everyone gets a shot at it on a short course (Parker/BITD) but we give the 15 fastest (regardless of class) the front 15 spots. For the rest of the classes the top 3 spots in each class is reserved for the fastest qualifier. If you break qualifying "your problem" If you want to go through the trouble of changing your set up for a fast dash, "your problem". We qualified at Parker without changing the car what so ever and we got bumped up to a great spot. There is a risk of hurting the car but the risk is up to you. Keep your random draw spot, or try for better, your choice!

[la2baja]

On the poker game...... Wow good fun, I have a feeling all the Casino guys out there would do well. Herbst, Riviera, Dean and countless other guys from Vegas! I think the Chasers should play for their teams spot!;)

[dscaroni]

It would definately be cool if the starting order issue could be resolved without having to ad an extra day to the weekend... I think if something out of the box could be thought of that the vast majority of the participants agree on. It would be a winning side for all parties involved..Maybe SCORE chartering a go-kart track out on a Thursday nite/Friday Morning (Vegas) and let the TT & Cl1 (but then you get the whole weight advantage issue) race for their position....how fast a driver can a change a tire by him/herself or something else that would attract curiosity and make it fun environment for all involved. There are endless possibilties...they just need to be thought of and have people willing to put forth the effort to make it happen.

[MikeLeung]

:) HaHa...my money would be on Bobby Baldwin!


Mine too. Most people here dont know that he's a former winner of the World Series of Poker.

[racer951]

At the time, he was the youngest winner.

[MARK]

From what I heard this weekend, their was a screwup on the class 1 drawing. Letners were put to class 12 instead of class 1. Now they will start at the back of the pack of class 1, this where they used to like to start in class 10, it will be interesting to see how they do if they have no problems. Mark

[B_ICKLER]

I think qualifying is a great idea! first, get a vote on what classes want to qualify. The majority of class 1 and trophy truck drivers would like a chance to better their starting positon. Those who dont, start by draw after the last qualifier. Those who do, have to pay for the transponder used to keep scoring accurate. Before qualifying, drivers will draw for their qualifying positions. I think racecar set up shuld be open and the courses should best represent the true racecourse. slippery farm roads for baja, and rough desert courses for Primm and laughlin.

[Chris_Wilson]

Would be good to see the qualifying order determined by the finishing order of
the previous race. Reward those who run every race and finish well. The black
boxes should be able to provide accuarte timing and scoring but it appears work
needs to be done to provide for a more rapid data download and analysis.

As a part time racer in a slower class, I'd still welcome qualifying. Do it for all
classes and make a big media deal out of it.

[Big_cahuna]

I say we should have burlap sack races right after contingancy, land rush style, how you finish is how you start the next day.

[DIRTBOY]

BITD doesn't seem to have any problems with their system, and they don't have to go through all this discussion they just do it, and that's that. Where you qualify is where you start.

[Jeepspeedster]

Yep, just got my Vegas to Reno entry from BITD,
Qualifying on thursday before the race for TT, Class 1 and 8. the rest are based on the drawing. The test track is 4 mile lop and you get to do a test run then qualify.
It is good way to test your race set up also.

Steve

[gwm]

I say we should have burlap sack races right after contingancy, land rush style, how you finish is how you start the next day.

I propose for class 5 a Corona off. One Corona every 15 minutes and starting order is inverse to the order of drivers of record heading off to the portables.

Seriously, the logistical problems of qualifying in Mx. may be insurmountable. I still like seeding based upon prior races during the season. Do well in Laughlin, good seed in SF. Part timers start later. Class 1 and TTs starting as a group but racing as independant classes. This recognises the fact that between class 1 and TT there are really 3 races going on; the class races in both classes and the race for the OA.

[ShaneR]

I say we should have burlap sack races right after contingancy, land rush style, how you finish is how you start the next day.

Billy, I will race you in a burlap sack!

I really like mixing the class 1 and TT since they are both racing for the overall, most drivers want the overall win even more than they want the class win. Seeding does reward the guys that run every race and are consistant where as the qualifing rewards the sprint guy, not sure what is better but as long as the class's are mixed it would be an improvment.

[subrunner]

Heck, if you're going to do burlap sack races, how about boxing matches? That ought to do quite alot for endurance the next day. :D

[SPROCKET]

just a thought
1)find all racers who are going for points and championship. all classes.
pool each class together and due a drawing at the start of the year. then invert
every race by dividing into groups
example
tt 25 trucks for 5 races makes 5 run groups you would get to start in the top 5 guaranted in one race.you would then start in postions 5 to 10 then 10 to 20 and so on
just thinking out of the box after a long day at work
(at least you would start in the top 5 once a year with a lottery who knows)
i think these odds are better
2)not running for championship you start in a drawing behind the car in your class that are running the whole sieres ( who are investing more time and money.)
3)i believe that with tv involved. tt's need to start first they are a truck that a average person car can relate to
and makes the sport more marketable

[obr184]

we have a prologue(qualifying) over here in Australia at every event.

It is a bit of a hassle but at least you get what you deserve.

One thing is that you would have to make sure that the prologue course is a TRUE indication of the course to be run.

It really is the fairest way to start especially if the course is the same as the real track. It is way less dangerous than dicing everyone up and its still fun to watch them trying to hunt down the next guy.

[BAPerf]

How about starting positions based on season points standings per class?

[Matt S]

Even in NASCAR the fastest guys end up having to work their way through lapped traffic. Passing is part of the sport. Maybe everyone should run infrared cameras so the dust problem is eliminated. Also, if you want to weed out the road blocks, put a limit on the number of vehicles in each class per race. Then qualify for positions just like NASCAR (43 cars that's it). Then the guys who can't qualify will be motivated to move down to a more befitting class.

[la2baja]

3)i believe that with tv involved. tt's need to start first they are a truck that a average person car can relate to
and makes the sport more marketable[/QUOTE]

I don't think we should keep pushing the trophy trucks as something people relate to. I think if we (fans, racers, race media) offered the TT's up more as what they are, a fully modified specific purpose race vehicle. It would probably get more attention. We've all been "selling" TT's as something people will sponsor and enjoy watching because they look like trucks and it honestly hasn't been working that well. Why not show it off as a pure bred racing machine and "sell it" that way. No one goes to Ford, Chevy dealers and asks for the the NASCAR Gordon just won in. They realize that there is a difference. Also as the years go by our TT's look less and less like any other vehicle on Earth. Other than the few Pro-truck conversions most TT's don't look like any truck from any factory.

This is not an attack on TT's by any means. Hoping to promote our sport anyway we can, and this is just an idea. A positive one.....I happened to be reminded by the quote thats all.

[klaus]

TT's and Class One are the same in my book.
Both are unlimited vehicles going the same speed. Overalling the same races.

One has a body the other doesn't.

Some Class Ones have turned TT and some TT switched to Class One by simply mounting or unmounting the body.