Dana 60 Vs 14b ff AGAIN

[scottm]

I know this has been discussed to death; I just spent an hour reading every thread in the last year. But this time its serious - I bought a truck project yesterday. Its a 77 chevy with some good stuff, including a new 4 link by Steve Arlia in phx. It has a trussed 12 bolt in it now, but I want a stronger budet axle. I just want a fun 8 open truck for whiplash and small time events, not to beat Vanderway in baja.

I can get either a 14bff from a dually 1 ton for $200 or a dana 60 widetrack for $250. Either way I will put in 4.88's, convert to disk and 5 on 5.5, do the truss and brackets myself, etc. I want it done for $1000-1500. Which is the better choice for bargain racing?

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

Conversion to 5 on 5.5 will be a lot easier with the 14BFF, it is the better choice.

[ShaneR]

Conversion to 5 on 5.5 will be a lot easier with the 14BFF, it is the better choice.

I like the 14BFF beter but with the gears you want to run I think the Dana 60 are easier to get and more affordable. You can get the extra wide 14BFF from the 78 or 79 thru 84 I think dually with 4.56 gears stock!

[therail]

good looking project truck. what motor you got in mind?

[scottm]

Thanks guys. I am going to buy the 14b 1 ton dually axle on thursday. Another question - from the site pirate 4x4, the dually has a different type of hub than a singe wheel axle. Will there be any problems with axle shaft length when I go to a racing hub?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/index.html

[scottm]

therail, I am going to run a 350 with a carb and moderate solid lifter cam, with a th400.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

Better do a little more research before you buy. I wouldn’t use the Dually axle. A ¾ or 1 Ton SRW axle would be better and a Van axle would be wider if that is what you want. The last one I bought was $75.00. You also talk about a “racing hub”, what hub would that be? The only aftermarket hub that I know of is made by Grady, and I wouldn’t call it a “racing hub”.

[scottm]

Why not use the dually? Its 5" wider than the srw axle. Does the different hub cause problems?

[Stephen]

The early dually 14ff was narrower than the single wheel and the single wheel is pretty narrow already (67-ish). A van axle or late model dually would be a better choice for the wider width or at least start with a single wheel and space from there.
4.88's are commonly available for either axle, as are detroit lockers and you can get a spool for the 14FF, it's not as racy as you can get for a D60 but it works.
I'd think either would work with the absolute r&p strength edge going to the 14ff. Also, many (most) d60's have a small spindle hole that won't easily accept a 35 spl. axleshaft and would have to be bored out for your purpose. That's something to watch for.

[ShaneR]

Better do a little more research before you buy. I wouldn’t use the Dually axle. A ¾ or 1 Ton SRW axle would be better and a Van axle would be wider if that is what you want. The last one I bought was $75.00. You also talk about a “racing hub”, what hub would that be? The only aftermarket hub that I know of is made by Grady, and I wouldn’t call it a “racing hub”.

Ramsey, Why do you say to not use the dually axle? From my understanding it uses the same basic hub bearings but the shape and size is a little different. It was smaller on most dually's but in a certian model that came in 5 or 6 years of trucks, a 1984 for sure becasue I have one, it is 74" mounting surface to mounting surface, so it is wider than the van and most came with 4.56 gears. It also has a larger axle tube at 3.5". Other than the axles being a differnt width per side I thought it was the same basic rear end as the 3/4 ton and 1 ton non dually. They are a little more expensive and harder to find but that is the rear I was going to use to get the extra width on a budget. I have also not heard of any aftermarket hubs and planed on running the stock hub converted to disk brake. Is there a problem with my choice that I am not seeing? Thanks for the input!

[scottm]

Ok, I am getting all different conflicting info from here and everywhere else. I havent bought the 1t dually yet. I just heard that pre '82 chevy 1t duallys are dana 70's. Can anyone confirm or refute that? And ramsey is right, the only hubs I could find are Grady's aluminum, but thier number is disconnected and seem to be out of business.

From this info on Pirate 4x

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/index.html

The dually has a different hub, but I cant find out if that makes it unsuitable. I think converting to 5 on 5.5 is a do it yourself deal. I have heard you can tap the 8 stud holes, fill with allthread, and redrill. Then turn the ouside of the snout and flange as much as you can, then hog out the wheels to fit. Not exactly easy but cheap.

[jeff]

Why run such a big pig behind such a small mouse?

Aloha

[14802]

Ramsy.. Question . If you want 5 on 5.5, but the actual diameter of a 14b hub/snout is 4.25-4.5 in. running say a 5/8 stud, you mill the center of the rim and i see no way that the lug nuts would fit( just not enough meat on the rim)? Am i missing somthing. I know it is possible to shave some of the hub down, but still the amount seem's small..

[scottm]

Yes thats a problem. I'm leaning toward a dana 60 again after talking to a diff shop in phx. Apparently the 60 is more easily turned down enough, plus you run socket head screws on the axle flange.

[sickrick]

If you read the pirate 4x4 link you will find that there are two different widths of dually axle; one is for the dually cab and chassis/narrow, and the other is for dually pickups/wider. The trick is then to use the hubs from a standard 14b rear on the wide dually axle because the standard hub offset is greater resulting in the rear getting even wider. It is all explained very well on http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/index.html.

[ShaneR]

If you read the pirate 4x4 link you will find that there are two different widths of dually axle; one is for the dually cab and chassis/narrow, and the other is for dually pickups/wider. The trick is then to use the hubs from a standard 14b rear on the wide dually axle because the standard hub offset is greater resulting in the rear getting even wider. It is all explained very well on http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/index.html.

That is a great ideal, I didn't think of that! Do you then make a custom axle to fit since the axle bolts to the outside of the hub and will be a longer setup than any of the stock setups? I would assume you would be looking at a 75" or 76" mounting surface to mounting surface width.
Since I am a junk yard ghetto pimp I am keeping the stock 8 lug and using Hummer H2 stock 8 lug 17" wheels that you can get for $100 a set because everyone with a hummer wants bling bling. This way I can use the larger front 8 lug brake rotors and caliper also.
Does anyone see any thing I am missing as why I shouldn't use this setup to get a very cheap, semi strong, extra wide rear end with large brakes?

[scottm]

The only reason I am planning to convert to 5 on 5.5 is thats the most common wheel. Someday you may be out of spares and need to borrow a wheel to get back (which happened to me in the baja 500 this year, in the middle of nowhere at 3 am).

[sickrick]

That is a great ideal, I didn't think of that! Do you then make a custom axle to fit since the axle bolts to the outside of the hub and will be a longer setup than any of the stock setups? I would assume you would be looking at a 75" or 76" mounting surface to mounting surface width.
Since I am a junk yard ghetto pimp I am keeping the stock 8 lug and using Hummer H2 stock 8 lug 17" wheels that you can get for $100 a set because everyone with a hummer wants bling bling. This way I can use the larger front 8 lug brake rotors and caliper also.
Does anyone see any thing I am missing as why I shouldn't use this setup to get a very cheap, semi strong, extra wide rear end with large brakes?
You use the same axles, only the flange where the wheel mounts moves wider.

[Stephen]

I think the wide dually axle you're looking at is a D70, which is really good stuff but the aftermarket is a little rough for them. I don't know about spools (if you care) but gears should be pretty easily available. There are many variations of the D70, so have your BOM # ready when you try to order parts.
We have put SRW hubs on a fleetside dually D70 and you end up around 76". I would think this would be perfect with the H2 wheels since they have so much backspace. I kind of like the H2 wheels, they are cheap and seem really strong. They're just not light. Another nice feature is they center on the hub so the lug studs just hold the wheel on, no weight support stress.
The penalty you pay for cheap is weight. In the light-cheap-strong graph, you get lots of strong and cheap and very little light.
I'm working with someone building an AL hub to beef it up a bit for desert use and hope it bears fruit, there's going to be a decent expense in hubs and brake/axle conversion parts all built around the factory spindles that can't take a lot more than a 35 spline axle shaft.

[sickrick]

The axle I am talking about is definitly not the dana 70. It is easy to tell a gm corparate 14 bolt from a dana 70, it (14 bolt) has a removable pinion carier like the ford nine inch does. If you read the pirate 4x4 write up on the 14 bolt you will find most of the answers to your 14 bolt questions, it is incredibly detailed.

[scottm]

I looked closer at the 14b chev 1t dually again and it was only 64" wide, so that's the c&c axle. Now im considering a dana 60 from a 94-98 3/4t dodge, they are 69.5" wide and fairly common.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

On the Dana 60, you'll find that the hub diameter and length are problematic.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

Scottm, I have spent a lot of time over the last few years on this subject and have covered everything I've learned in other posts here and on ColoradoK5. PM me with a phone number if you would like to talk, I think I can answer your questions.

[scottm]

Thanks, I appreciate that, as I started this thread to determine the pros and cons of each.

[scottm]

Ramsey should have his own forum just on axle tech! Thank you!

My main criteria now is to pick an axle that will be easiest to turn down to fit 5 on 5.5 wheels. I just measured the axle flange on a 14bff on a 3/4t chevy p/u for sale on the side of the road. It measures 4.450" OD, so it will require turning off .7" dia or .350" thickness to get the snout and axle flange into a 5.5 wheel with a 3 3/4 ID. Is there really that much extra meat on the hub?

[scottm]

I went searching for more on the eternal ff 5 on 5.5 question (Is there really that much extra meat on the hub?) and found this post on off-road.com by Chris Wilson:

"The GM corporate 14-bolt full floater has a smaller hub diameter than the
Ford 10.25. Unlike the Ford floater hub, the 14-bolt hub can be turned down
on a lathe enough to fit inside the wheel center of Bronco wheel and the hub
will still have enough meat on it to support re-drilling for a 5x5.5"bolt pattern,
even with big 5/8 or 11/16 wheel studs. When you try this trick on the Ford
hub, you get too close to the bolt circle that retains the flanged axle shaft.

At least one of the old stud holes for the old 8 bolt pattern must be welded
up since the 5x5.5 pattern will need to be drilled thru part of one hole. The one
I saw done had all the holes welded up then the flange was turned down on
the lathe to remove a couple pounds of excess material and face the welded holes
for the wheel rim seating surface. Lots of work but free if you have the time,
tools, and a junk yard 14-bolt handy."

[subrunner]

This is interesing. I'm going to run 6 lug on the Sub with a 14 bolt FF, but I'll probably use adapters.

[scottm]

Does anyone know what the original spec is for the wheel ID of the 5 on 5.5 pattern? I just measured an Ultra alum 5 on 5.5 wheel, and its ID is 4.25". If that is normal, then I'm good to go - It will only require machining off about .200" of hub diameter.

[Chris_Wilson]

Scott, it's interesting that you found that quote on off-road.com since I'm fairly
sure I sent it only to the big bronco mailing list. Regardless of how it got there,
it's accurate and the example of the 14 bolt ff I spoke of is Ramsey's. We looked
into doing the same with a Ford 10.25" rear end and it was not possible. As Ramsey
has said and done, there really is that much extra metal on the 14ff hub for you to
weld up the old 8 bolt stud holes, thrun the hub down on a lathe, then re-drill the
stud holes for 5 on 5.5". At any rate, Ramsey is the one who has the experience
doing this and has tons of research under his belt. Maybe Ramsey would sell you
his 5 bolt 14ff hubs since I think he is going to switch to a 6 bolt setup.