Four Cylinder Transmission

[Brandon_Charley]

We have been looking for a truck to build for a few weeks and we may have found the one today, we're hoping to have it by the end of the day tommorrow. Its already got some suspension mods, bed cage and bent beams, not going to beat anybody but a good start. It got me thinking that maybe we could have a raceable truck by the end of Summer. I think I could build a decent/mild four cylinder on a budget, some Esslinger parts are ridiculously priced, others seem pretty reasonable. If I do build a four and get 200-300hp what transmission do I put behind it? Its a Ranger.





P.S. As I wrote this I called to finalize the buying of the truck, and it fell through. The question still stands though.

[dislocated1]

If you get 300 hp for a reasonable price give me a call, I would like to know the secret. As far as ranger trannies go, c-4 if it is an auto or a T-5 if you wanna mess witha clutch

[WannaB-class5]

If you want the numbers I will look up the file but my roomate did the cost analysis for HP in a ford 2.3 vs a 4.0 swap and a 5.0 swap. First off by Esslinger's numbers on their website we never got above 250hp in the 2.3 and to generalize our results we could drop in a beat 302 (5.0L) for about the same price. The 302 was cheaper and the swap parts time and fab made up the difference. But with the 302 he had the options to get very high HP later. The 2.3 was maxed. As for the tranny dislocated1 said it right.

You used the term mild four cylender and 200-300HP in the same sentance. I don't think those go together. Good luck and PM me if you want that file, otherwise happy hunting for a truck! (sorry this post was so negative about the 2.3)

Oh and the 4.0 would have been a waste of time $$ wise. Just go to the V8 and don't worry about the weight.

[sierra]

if you're building a ford you may want to look in to the sohc 4.0 and a c-4 transs semi auto, i run that on my 7s and it's strong, also i just overheated my engine in the tt250 and I just bougth another engine today for $800, that's the beauty of the stock motor :)

it's pretty decent horse power and cheap to fix,

[sickrick]

With out a doubt go c-4 if you want it cheap and reliable. You should reinforce the bellhousing (they like to break) also make sure to add a support for the end of the starter, if you dont the the constant pounding will break the starter and a chunk of the bellhousing off. Get a good torque converter if you want to be fast off the line, the stock ones wont let the motor rev much and the engine will stumble out of the hole. By the time you get a 2.3 over 200 hp they do not make any power until over 3000 rpm. If you want to get 200 hp on a budget I suggest that you look for an older stlye aluminum head (they are reasonable because everyone with money has switched to the new design) get a roller cam. put in good flat tops with the newer 2.5 crank spend some money and get a dual weber setup or four mikunis. and be prepared to rev it. If you plan to get 300 hp be prepared to spend at least 12,000 or more like 16,000. I can tell you that once a 2.3 is making this much power it will only last about 6 short course races (20 minutes each) before it needs to be freshened up (rings, bearings). I hope this helps. I have been reading some of your posts and I think that you are going to like the ranger as great starting point for a racer on a budget. They are unbelievable tough with just some simple suspension work. Also because they are smaller your tow rig and trailer will not have to be as heavy duty (I've read your other posts). By the way our old short course rangers (soda, corr) weighed 2600 lbs. and had around 200 hp, they were a ridiculious amount of fun even though we never one a race. I would guess that a 2.3 desert stlye short bed standard cab would weigh about 3300-3700 lbs.

[sickrick]

If the class you want to race in allows it I strongly agree with wannebe class 5 that the 302 is the way to go. You could get a new 302 crate motor with aluminum heads (far more reliable) for far less than you could build a 250 hp 2.3 for. And you would still have money left over for a rebuilt c4 and a narrowed 9 inch with 40 spline axles.

[Brandon_Charley]

The truck we were looking at was a swb and I had heard that the weight distribution would be just too off to have real fun with a 302. The 4.0l doesn't seem to have many aftermarket parts (am I wrong). I guess I messed up on 4cyl. hp numbers, I meant that it seemed like I could build a 4 with enough hp to have fun on a budget, I know I could get 200 on a budget. Since 1450 allows it I'm also thinking turbo, but it will cost a little more and i won't be able to race SCORE.

[Josh_K]

Hay man... What happened to the aluminum big block on a tight budget? I am still waiting to learn where I am doing it wrong becouse I cant figure that one out.

Josh

[Brandon_Charley]

That truck will get built, and it will stomp everything that tries to beat it, but it wont be built for a really long time.

Also, in case you guys haven't figured out my mind is running open loop, until I get my truck I am going to change my design everytime I hear a cool idea I think I can work with. It's not ideal but eventually it will lead to the ultimate truck. I'll probably get another idea and ruin it though.

[14802]

THE GEARS ARE TURNING ...add some more oil. good luck with your project.

[Josh_K]

WOW!!! I hope you don’t waste your time with class 8 because you’re obviously way too innovative for me.

Look out Trophy Trucks, this guy is going to make all you look stupid.

[FlyHiFlyLo]

Dalton! That ain’t nothing!

Take a 1000ci Allison V12 put it through the band saw and take off 4 cylinders. That is an awesome way to build a cheap 600+CI aluminum v-8. I figured I could get it through the TT rules by using a Fiberglass P51 Mustang body from Trailer Products. Do you think an Allison trans from a 2004 GMC Duramax 3500 would bolt up?

[Josh_K]

Oh wait, I am trying get my mind to run on open loop so how about this...

First off those old v12 Allison’s are 1710cid so knock 4 cylinders off that. Plus use one of those off the right side of P-38 because it turns the opposite direction. This will help when the engine is mounted in the front of the truck but still uses a V drive in the rear to correct for positive pinion angel gain as the axel packs in the travel increasing the trucks nose up attitude while kicking.

BTW if with the turbo super-super charged compounded engine, I know you can get 45 psi of manifold boost out of it. Now all I have to do is dream about changing all the rules in a class I don’t race in and I will have it all figured out!

Do you think a NV 4500 will handle the power?

Oh ya, may be I need one of those gyro things the Herbst have.

Josh

[Dave_G]

Oh ya, maybe I need one of those gyro things the Herbst have.

.....and also some of the money they have to feed that Allison.

lol

[Brandon_Charley]

To the people that answer my questions and give me advice and ideas:

Thank You, I really appreciate it and I hope to eventually be as helpful to newbs as you guys are to me now.

To the people that don't and think making fun of people with questions and ideas and turning every post I've ever read on RDC into an argument:

Have fun.

[Brandon_Charley]

"Now all I have to do is dream about changing all the rules in a class I don’t race in and I will have it all figured out!"

What is this referencing?

[Josh_K]

Well sorry about all the sarcasm, but I disagree with you. When you first came on the board I tried to be as helpful as possible. I figured you were serious and took you seriously now I realize you are just dreaming. If you were serious about doing some thing you would have taken me up on looking at my truck and got some ideas on how to build one instead you ask some good questions here but I bore quickly of people that ask questions and then boldly don’t take good advice given to them.

BTW I have been down the road you are thinking about. I have built 95% of my truck. I have gone form wondering how to finish a race and thinking 40 mph was a good average. Now I can go out to a race knowing I can decimate a field of competitors and it is a great feeling so when you tell me you are going to build an 8 truck that is going to stomp the competition, I laugh. It possible, but that’s really bold and hard to take seriously when you are trying to build a truck on your friends parents dime.

Off road is not a video game. The computer isn’t used for much when building useless it’s a cad or solid works program you’re using. Have fun and start doing it. Don’t try to know every thing, there no way too. Just bend metal and weld it together and see if it works. You never know, it might.


Josh

[Brandon_Charley]

As I said on the original thread I'm taking everyone advice and starting in a class thats meant for beginners. I asked questions, I took peoples advice about the level of competition and the money involved and decided that SCORE and a full size isn't the best place to start. Basically, I took the advice of those with more experience, and now their mad at me. I'm picking up a Ranger today to build a 1450.

It may have come out wrong because its hard convey expressions or emotions on a computer, but it was an optimistic half joke saying I would beat everyone someday. And, as I said in the original thread the aluminum big block would be a 1450, or if everything works out, by the time I can afford it I will have the experience and skill necessary to make it a TT or Class 1. I know I have a really long way to go before I can "desimate all", but is it that bad to start in the sport wanting to be the next Ironman. I know I'm going to try my hardest to build a truck that would rival "The Piece".

[Brandon_Charley]

And I'm not building my truck on their dime, you're all mad and you don't even seem to have read the whole post, I don't want them to have anything to do with my truck, either way things have changed since then, as I explained in the "Spectating the 1450" thread.

[Josh_K]

I don’t know Why I do this…I guess that I cant stop. Heres more good advise.

NO INE GETS TO THE TOP ALONE!

I have some friends that race in the premier class and over the last 8 years these guys have allowed me to see almost their entire program. With out saying anything they will just start talking about things form 15 of 20 years ago. They tell me what worked and didn’t. They will even go so far to tell me to shut up use my two ears twice as much as my one mouth because they have the been there done that and this is my point. If all you do is run around on the Internet blabbing and listening to fools, you’re not going to get vary far. Get involve with a team.

I recommend that you find some one to mentor you. Act respectful and show thankfulness that they allow you to see their program. If they ask you to help, don’t ask what in it for “me”. Matt Helton in Anaheim would be a good person to help, but don’t be a puck because like my self, he’s got nothing to prove to you. You need to be around it and just learn from exposer because there is no one the internet that is going to so how to do it right the first time because they probably make there living doing it.

It has taken me 8 years to get these guys to open up to me and I would like to think the reason they do is because that see that I am 100% respectful to them and I have earned there friendship and respect. I trust what they tell me and that’s some thing you can’t find on the Internet. Last year I rode back form La Paz with these 2 drivers and the hole time they did there best to down load 20 years worth of Baja experience to me and it makes me feel good that they are choosing me to pass this experience on to. And when I first wandering into their shop/compound I had all the same silly question you have. I just did my best to not be an ass.

I guess that is really isn’t meant for Crakka, I just hope some other younger hopeful racers will read this and realize getting involved with a team is where the answers are found. This is a good site for questions and great place to waste time while at work but it doesn’t replace getting involved.

Lastly, don’t get your girl friend pregnant, get a good education, buy a house and stabilize your bills, don’t run up credit card bills, don’t get your self into paying child support payments, don’t waste your money with new cars, stay out of trouble with the law, say no to dope, marry well, don’t spend more that $10 dollars a week on cigarettes or beer, never lose sight of you dream, work your butt off. If you do all this, a kid form a normal back ground can grow up and can get involved in the sport of kings and wannabees.

It’s all worth what you paid for it!

Josh,
aka-internet goon

[matt_helton]

ahh come on Josh, your a goon in real life too. LOL

[14802]

i was thinking $10. wk on beer? More like $15.99 a night..weekend night.

[sickrick]

Quote:
Lastly, don’t get your girl friend pregnant, get a good education, buy a house and stabilize your bills, don’t run up credit card bills, don’t get your self into paying child support payments, don’t waste your money with new cars, stay out of trouble with the law, say no to dope, marry well, don’t spend more that $10 dollars a week on cigarettes or beer, never lose sight of you dream, work your butt off. If you do all this, a kid form a normal back ground can grow up and can get involved in the sport of kings and wannabees.
That is the best advice I have ever heard. If you follow this advice; I have no doubt you will have a successful life and racing future. If you don't; you will live to regret it on a daily basis.
I'm going to share the best advice I was ever given. One day at work I was real down, my boss and friend came up to me a said that I looked depressed and stressed out. I told him I was and he asked if I was unhappy, I told him I was. He then said that when he is upset or unhappy he makes a choice, and that he chooses to be happy. Everytime since then when I feel depressed or sad or down or what ever you call it, I simply choose to be happy. I know this sounds way to simple but I guarantee happiness is a choice and you are the one that gets to choose it.
I have been working on a response; relating to all of the questions that you or other new people may have regarding racing (simple things that apply to all types of racing). I have been given alot of advice over the years and I can tell you that it is only as good as the person giving it. Don't be to upset about getting teased a little (you have it coming). The new guy always gets clowned on a little in any group. Its how you handle it that lets people know if your the type of guy they want to spend their time and energy on.

[Brandon_Charley]

I'm sorry that I was offended so easily. The hypothetical questions should stop now because I finally got my truck and have decided to stick with a traditional wheel and not design a new one yet, since its my first one. I will try not to ask overly stupid questions anymore and save them for when I need help on something I'm actually doing.

[Josh_K]

Choosing to be happy is a fact!

I do the same and it is one of the most difficult things there is to do. Unless you have unlimited cash, you cant buy enjoyment all of the time to cover up felling of unhappiness or a feeling of being unfulfilled. All money does is buy enjoyment, not happiness.

It’s just my opinion. But people that live disasters of a life, I feel choose it. And the bad thing about activities like off-road racing or other high dollar activities is that you can lose sight of what’s important in live and the drug of off road becomes more important than happiness.

It happens to me all the time and now it I could just fallow my own advise I would have it all.

Josh

[sickrick]

So cracka you have a truck, What is it? Can you discribe it in detail? What tools do you currently own? What is the time frame to completion (when do you first want to try it out)? What is your budget? What class would you like to run in?
Once we know the facts I'm sure you will get all kinds of help.
Please be honest with your budget, this is where alot of us make mistakes. Not working with a time frame or real budget is why there are so many uncompleted projects forsale all over the internet.

[Brandon_Charley]

Its an extended cab Ranger. Currently just a cab and frame. We currently have 3 welders 2 mig, 1 tig, all Lincoln; a chop saw, a horizontal band saw, a vertical band saw, most hand tools (we'll find out which ones we don't have when we need them), a forklift, and an in ground lift. We will have a plasma cutter (not sure which), a JD2 bender (probably model 3), and a JMR notcher by the end of the month. We have a sheetmetal bender thats really beat, if we cant fix it we'll be buying a new one soon. Eventually we will have a mill and a lathe also. Its our first project, so we don't know a reasonable time frame. We don't have a budget yet, just an agreemaent that I pay for the truck, and JP pays for tools. We will race 1450, and Sportsman truck.

What is a reasonable time frame, keep in mind this is our first project, it took us five hours to get the truck off the trailer and on castors. Is $10,000 to get running running, not counting tools reasonable?

Don't know why pics are blue, truck is the greenish color Rangers come in.

[Brandon_Charley]

Also, I will be making my own front suspension, not sure if beams or a-arms. I want leafs in the rear, JP is trying to convince me links are better. It will have a 351w & th400 pushed as far back as possible without causing the driveshaft to be too short. Engine, trans, and rearend will all start as junkyard rebuilds. We'll do the engine, have a shop do the trans, haven't decided on the rearend.

[Josh_K]

I wouldnt fidel around with a turbo 400 unless you are using bowtie power. C6's are really good trans's and they dont need anything to make them handel 350 hp in the dezert. If you want the cool c6, buy a tail shaft or complete trans from a older, like 1970 bb truck and use the trans form a small block so it will mate with the sb 351. It's what most of the ford 8 trucks do. This gives you the solid tail shaft in the trans and puts the slip joint in the drive line instead of the tail shaft of the trans. A tipical tail shaft only form a bb cost about $300.00

And if you want to do it your way thats fine, you just not gonna gain you anything.

Josh

[Brandon_Charley]

I just read in another thread about putting a 351 in a ranger that a built th400 was way stronger than a c6 and wouldn't stand a chance of breaking behind any power level a 351 could put out. I would like to get my junk yard parts soon so I can start laying things out and measuring, not having to buy the $400-$500 adapter plate is worth starting with a c6. If I ever break the c6 I'll look into upgrading then.

[Josh_K]

My turck put out an honest 575 hp and I have never had a trans issue. Period! There have been some basic improvement done, but nothing radical. I think people that dont like c6 are Chevy guys. BTW, I run it about 4 races between rebuilds too.

Also if you use the bb tail shaft, its shorter and helps with drive line length.

[movindirt]

Link it!!!! If you are going to go to the trouble of stuffing a BB and a C6 in a Ranger you just need to step up and link it. You will never ever get the performance out of leafs that you will need with all that power. You will be able to set it up better with links. Many will say you can do the same with leafs and maybe if you spend big $$$ you can but why? You will break a leaf spring long before a coil spring in most cases. Leafs are HEAVY. Just my .02..

Good luck with your project. Looks like you have a nice shop, or at least the starting of one. And make sure you know all the rules before you get to far along..

Tony

[sickrick]

Link it, good spings are around a grand and will get around 16 inches of travel. for a grand you can buy the bushings and heims to build your own link set up. get a used running 351w or 302 with working trans. Do not waste any time or money rebuilding it or doing anything to it. Clean it up and use it to fab around. When the fab work is done and if there is money left in the budget rebuild them ect. as far as the front suspension goes I would stongly suggest buying a used set of beams or building them out of f-150 beams (this is alot easier cheaper and quicker to build then A-arms).
Here is some general ideas regarding race fab that I think work well for most people:

#1 Perfection is the enemy of completion (Do not try to make your first few trucks too nice or too trick or they will never get done)
#2 Taste success often. (Try to find a little project on the truck that you can take from start to finish in a few hours, do this a couple times a week. This can really improve your ability to keep going on the truck when maybe you feel things aren't progressing fast enough)
#3 Don't listen to people with negative attitudes (They are easy to convert to a more positive train of thought by simply letting them know that they are not helping the situation. If that doens't work ban them from the shop)
#4 Learn when to fab and when to buy (do not build things that are easy and cheap to buy. example don't spend ten hours and 5 dollars to build some cool little bracket that you can buy for $30. This is where alot of projects go wrong)
#5 No Chrome! if it doesn't make it faster or more reliable don't waste your money and time on it. (That type stuff (bling) is for idiots and the filthy rich. This is an absolute must if you are going to build on a budget)
#6 budget, budget, budget! Think about this constantly, this is the most important.(every decision regarding the truck needs to pass this test, does it make it faster or lighter or more reliable, and can I afford it. If it doesn't, don't do it!)
#7 increase the Fun Factor! (don't let building the truck become a chore. take time to go see some racing or bs or whatever it takes)
I hope this helps. I know it has helped me lately. In the past I have ignored most of this advice, and I can promise you it cost me alot of lost time and money and even years that I could of been racing were lost (I hope you can learn from my mistakes)
I have been reading this forum for along time and I have been posting here latley because it keeps me excited about racing (it increases my Fun Factor).

[Brandon_Charley]

When I said 35i I meant 351 windsor not cleveland, I've got crazy ideas, but not that crazy. I originally wanted links, but the 64" deavers and Giant's claimed 21" of travel seems like a lot of bang for the buck (#4) I think I can build a 3 link, theres just a lot of things about it that I can't wrap my head around yet, and reading old RDC threads only makes it harder, like: I don't know if I'm for or against anti squat, and I still can't figure out the significance of roll center, I thought leafs would buy me some time to figure these things out.

Dalton- Is it worth starting with a sb tailshaft and upgrading to bb tailshaft when I increase power or should it be done in the beginning?

[Josh_K]

I use the long tail shaft and it works for me because I only use about 3/16 of drive line slip as the axel travels through 24” of travel. This is rare. Most people have about 1-2” of drive line slip. They have to use the short tail shaft because it puts the slip joint in the drive line and not in the rear of the trans and the short tail shaft is generally stronger.

I have success with the long tail shaft with the slip joint in the trans because my set up has only 3/16” of slip.

[movindirt]

I use the long tail shaft and it works for me because I only use about 3/16 of drive line slip as the axel travels through 24” of travel. This is rare. Most people have about 1-2” of drive line slip. They have to use the short tail shaft because it puts the slip joint in the drive line and not in the rear of the trans and the short tail shaft is generally stronger.

I have success with the long tail shaft with the slip joint in the trans because my set up has only 3/16” of slip.

Josh, so when you pull the driveline out of the tranny does the ATF come out? I don't know the C6 but that is how it is on my ranger with a 5spd. That is not going to be fun if you have to change a driveline during a race. So this may be another reason to go with the short tail shaft.

When I said 35i I meant 351 windsor not cleveland, I've got crazy ideas, but not that crazy. I originally wanted links, but the 64" deavers and Giant's claimed 21" of travel seems like a lot of bang for the buck (#4) I think I can build a 3 link, theres just a lot of things about it that I can't wrap my head around yet, and reading old RDC threads only makes it harder, like: I don't know if I'm for or against anti squat, and I still can't figure out the significance of roll center, I thought leafs would buy me some time to figure these things out.

Yeah you might get 21" when the springs are new. Once they start to flatten you will lose travel. Not much but you will lose some. My guess is you would be looking at 18 to 19" after the springs settle if they are getting 21" when new. You want to be able to set anti-squat and anti-dive. You can start with adjustable mounts for the links so you can dial it in. With even a mild V8 you are going to have alxe wrap. To cure this you will have to run traction bars. Traction bars that work are not that simple to design, you might as well be working on the links.


Tony

[BAPerf]

Cracka,

If I may be so bold as to recomend a semi-cheap project.

How about a Challenger class ranger. What's a challenger class truck you ask...

Stock frame, steel cab, 4-cylinder 8 valve engine under 2610cc., single 2.5" shock per corner, 32" tires, factory heads (no Esslinger heads), leaf springs mounted like the factory style (next to frame on rangers) length is open, etc... If you want a cheap class to learn building a racetruck, this is it. If you are wondering where you can race something like this, come to the ROR in July and watch Jeff Huseman take his $10k truck and put a hurting on just about everything else out there.

Just a thought, as it definitely cost less to race at the ROR, and there are less travel costs, less prep costs, less crew expenses, etc...

Brian

[Josh_K]

I had so much fun Saturday, I am thinking about building one too. It's a great project that could be built on the cheap and quickly. What we need to do is get about 6 or 8 done and race CORR out west when they come out. I am hooked on the flat trackin.

[BlueCoyote]

That class looks like the ultimate entry class. Planning on building one. Would be great to get them as part of CORR.

[Brandon_Charley]

That sounds like fun. Are their any desert sanctioning bodies with this class, i.e. more than short course, or would I be stuck racing 1450 or 7open if I wanted to do a desert race.

[Brandon_Charley]

I read a more complete set of rules on another post, and I don't think I could comply with the front suspension pivot location rule. The truck doesn't have them, and I really wanted to do an equal length setup.

Thanks for the reccomendation(sp?) though, its something I should have looked into before I bought the truck. I think a 1450 will be fun, that way I can do desert and short course racing.