VW oil leak from he**......

[ZTFab]

OK, so I know it's not uncommon for a VW to leak, in fact I think that it's a given fact that they do....so here's my situation.....

Finishing a bug for a customer....put a 1600 DP motor in that he supplied....come to find out that it's a "refurbished" motor and not a rebuilt......perfect....

Fired the engine, tuned it...runs great. Sitting in my shop, no leaks.....drive it 100 yards...dumps oil like there isn't a gasket on it....


Basically I took the motor down to the long block...I pulled the fuel pump off, replaced both gaskets and the stand-off...removed the carb, intake & tubes, dog-house and the generator, replaced both gaskets and the baffle under the generator stand, put another new o-ring on the new 009 dist., re-sealed the sending unit with teflon tape, pulled the oil pump and resealed the oil pump body and the cover.....I used "gasgacinch" on all my gaskets (like I always do)....still Freakin' leaks....

It only leaks under load...I cannot see an active leak while it's sitting in my shop....oil seems to still be coming out near the oil pump somewhere....maybe from the case split from the crank to the oil pump body? I checked the case bolts...all are tight....

The big problem is the car is supposed to leave my shop tomorrow and it's 8:15 at night.....thought I had the leak fixed until I did one last test....
ANY help would be appreciated...thanks in advance....

Paul

[ChuckH]

hard to judge online, or in person it seems ;) ... do you have another oil pump to bolt on, are the surfaces flat on the pump case and block ? ... oil pump gasket failure ?

bad push rod tube, small chance but they dont always seat.

[ZTFab]

The block appeared to be fairly flat when I took the pump off the first time....I checked the pump body with a straight edge and it was fine....of course the gaskets that are available for VW motors look like they are made out of recycled bible paper (and they probably are considering that you have to pray that they hold!!!) I've got the front of the engine back apart right now, getting ready to take the pump body back off to recheck everything....the only other pump I have is a used one on another 1600 SP motor....If I have to I can pull that motor apart and scrounge for stuff...I hope I don't have to.....

Thanks for the input Chuck...sometimes it's the simple things that cause the most problems and I probably need reminding of all the basics to make sure I didn't forget...that's why I love RDC...help when you need it :D

[ChuckH]

I like to keep some sheet gasket material in my shop and hand cut it if needed with a exacto ( spelling ?) you can get it in different thickness, thicker is good for uneven surfaces.

[Tony_Barraza]

Flywheel Seal? Back of motor, behind the flywheel. If that is the case, it's soaking the clutch disc and that will require replacing also.

Just a thought...


Good luck!

[ZTFab]

Flywheel Seal? Back of motor, behind the flywheel. If that is the case, it's soaking the clutch disc and that will require replacing also.

Just a thought...


Good luck!

The back of the engine is bone dry...it all seems to be contained near the crank pulley/oil pump body...after driving, it drips down the case and drops off the sump and since it's near the crank pulley, it gets slung around a bit and I can't tell where it originates from.....

Chuck...right about now I'm wishing I had some thicker gasket material.....I've got some Toyota FIPG leftover from when I used to be a technician...I think I'm gonna try that....

[ChuckH]

use two or maybe 3 stock Vdub gaskets if that sucker keeps leaking, if that doesn't fix it !!.. it might be the crank seal, the one by the pulley ;)

Sealants need time to dry to work right.

[bajaruner11]

A couple of things to check here, most likely it's leaking from around the crank pulley as VW's have no seal there from the factory.
-1st is your crankcase breather open and working properly? If it's not it will push oil out from around the pulley like Niagara Falls.
-2nd did the engine builder install the oil slinger onto the crankshaft when it was assembled. if not again Niagara falls (to check this remove the pulley and looking into the case around the crank there should be what appears to be a large flat washer with a slight forward bend about half way up.)
-3rd If the case was damaged around the pulley in it's prior use due to a bad crankshaft end bearing it may have been worked out and has to much clearance around the pulley for the left hand scroll thread cut in the pulley to return the oil into the slinger.
-4th I have seen aftermarket aluminum pulleys missing the scroll thread, and the thread just cut in. (not deep enough.)

If it is in fact a badly worn case around the pulley which I have many times the cure is fairly simple and I highly recommend doing this anyway, and that is to install a sand seal and pulley. Empi makes a complete kit containing all parts necessary to do the job, and it's a bolt on deal. Just make sure that when you install the crank seal/housing you thoroughly clean all oil from the case and install the seal/housing with JB Weld epoxy to hold it in. Also sanding the case to give the epoxy something to bite into helps too. Last I did have an engine once that leaked around the oil pump and the only thing that would cure it was that toyota fihp sealer, but the oil pump leaked at idle to, you say yours only leaks under load which leads me the pulley.
Hope this helps.
Steve

[ChuckH]

very thorough, kudos

[ZTFab]

Steve...
The breather seems to be working fine, when I took off the generator stand, everything was clear and I've got a new Empi billet filler neck with all new plumbing for the breather....

The oil slinger is there, and is got a factory pulley with the scroll thread...but since this motor was refurbished and not rebuilt, it leads me to believe that the clearance arond the case may be the cause for all of my grief.....where can I get a sand seal kit tonight..literally...I've got to get this car out of my shop by tomorrow because I promised it to my customer and I've got 3 more showing up.....

[ChuckH]

Wow tonight ! at 10 pm , break out the yellow pages but i dont think late night parts places like auto zone will have it

you best bet is to do it 1st thing in the morning, good luck bro

here is the site with the part he talked about

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:FxOV0e5OW8oJ:www.empius.com/p/pulleys.html+sand+seal+and+pulley+Empi&hl=en

[ZTFab]

Ya, no kidding Chuck....late night parts sources are scarce at best....thanks for all the help though....I used to have a local supplier that was 24 hrs and they carried a ton of bug stuff....but they disappeared years ago.....

Well, with the help of the yellow pages and my coffee maker, I might make something happen.....hell, the last dragster I finished I stayed 41 hours straight to get it to the track on time....I even had the chassis cert guy from NHRA make a house call to my shop 'cause I was still wiring and plumbing it...all thanks to part delays...

Either way, thanks for the great input guys...I really appreciate it...I'll let you know if I find an all night parts source...after all, insomniacs need parts too!!!! :D

[bajaruner11]

Damn! good luck on finding that one tonight. I think first thing in the AM will get you fixed. Get everything apart and prepped tonight, pull both pulleys (crank, and gen) then first thing in the mourning reassemble it using the 5min JB quick. Thats the best advice I can give you. Oh one more thing If you buy the sand seal kit you have to get the longer crank bolt that Empi sells also, they just don't tell you about it. The bolt is needed because there is a spacer that slides over the crank to offset the pulley for the new seal, there's a spacer used on the generator also to line the belt back up. All in all it's a very very easy process.

Good luck on this.

[DJDIRTWORKS]

I don't know if it's too late to help you, but what someone mentioned eairler about a free breathing crankcase filter is a really good place to look at hard. I actually had this exact problem once- brand new motor, leaked like a seive but only when you ran it a little hard. Turned out that the foam that the manufacturer had put in the breather box was so dense it could not flow enough air to relieve the pressure and out the sand seal came the oil. Fixed it by replacing the foam with some KnN prefilter foam.
Whatever you find, let us know how you do.

Best of luck.

-DJ

[ntsqd]

Well? Did you cure it? How come you're not still up? ;)

[ZTFab]

OK, so I gave up trying to find an all night parts store that carries Empi parts after about the 5th phone call...

Me:" Yes, do you carry Empi volkswagen parts?"
Poorly trained parts guy(s): " M.P. parts?"
Me: "No, Empi aftermarket performance parts for VW."
Them: "Empty aftermarket parts, what??!!"

After a full day's frustration I decided to go home about midnight..... :mad:

Dan, I did check the breather set-up again to be sure....I've got the PCV hose coming from the Empi filler neck and it's plumbed into the air filter (K&N style) so it should be fine....thanks for the tip :)

Steve, I prepped all the parts before going home and re-sealed the oil pump body and cover with FIPG....just waiting on my parts suppliers to roll out of bed and open up shop...

Thanks again guys....I'll keep you posted....

[ZTFab]

Just went out to the shop to finish prepping the case for the sand seal (when I get it)
and noticed something....
Steve, you may know this.....I looked really closely at the oil slinger and the scroll thread on the pulley...there really aren't any traces of oil on them consistent with how much has been leaking....the back of the pulley has practically nothing on it and the case opening where the pulley sits is dry too.....shouldn't the scroll threads have oil between them if it's been saturated?

Either way, I'm still gonna put a sand seal on it for peace of mind....just thought it was odd that the parts look like they've never seen oil...

[bajaruner11]

By the time you pull apart the pulley, the threads and the slinger will be fairly dry. You really wont be able to tell if it's leaking or not. Anouther area you can look at however is the oil galley plugs in the case that sit above and beside the oil pump. I considered the oil galley plugs, or small case crack around the oil presure light switch whole in the case, but these places would leak at idle just as much as running. One other place you could look very carefully at is the section of case just above the oil pump where the case runs front to back, basically between the top of the pump and the whole in the case where the crankshaft sits.

[ZTFab]

Thank youThank youThank youThank youThank youThank youThank youThank youThank youThank youThank you........
With the help of you guys it's fixed.....thanks to all of you for the help....it seems that the sand seal and re-sealing the oil pump did the trick...not a drop on the ground!!! :D

RDC freakin' rocks.......

[WannaB-class5]

Glad you could fix it. I have had a leak similar to what you described (only under load) and yesterday I threw a rod! Have a nice 4 inch hole in my magnesium paper weight now. anyone have 1776 parts laying around!

[bajaruner11]

Very cool! Glad to hear a happy ending to what can be a real nightmare.

[ZTFab]

Glad you could fix it. I have had a leak similar to what you described (only under load) and yesterday I threw a rod! Have a nice 4 inch hole in my magnesium paper weight now. anyone have 1776 parts laying around!

Ouch, sorry to hear that Pahl....., I don't have any 1776 parts, when I deal with VW it's mainly 1600 stuff....all I have right now is a tired early style 1600, S.P.....miles from your 1776.....

Did you have a sand seal on the crank pulley? I feel like such a retard, I didn't even know that Empi had that seal kit in a bolt in....thanks again Steve!!!

[WannaB-class5]

Maybe I should start a new thread but I am hearing very mixed things with the sand seal. I will try to look up my info again but they have become a problem in more than a few motors instead of fixing one. Anyone hear this or have experience with them?

And no I had no seal, it was built when I bought it and they said they never had a problem

[bajaruner11]

What would you like to know about the sand seal?

[ZTFab]

Maybe I should start a new thread but I am hearing very mixed things with the sand seal. I will try to look up my info again but they have become a problem in more than a few motors instead of fixing one. Anyone hear this or have experience with them?

And no I had no seal, it was built when I bought it and they said they never had a problem


Well, hopefully there won't be any probs with the seal I put into the motor that left my shop.....It fixed a huge problem that I had with oil coming from behind the pulley, so IMO, I have to say they are a benefit...

[bajaruner11]

The only real problem I have ever had with sand seals is with the machine in type, they tend to walk out of the case. With the bolt in style I have never had one go bad, and the JB weld is an extra precaution to keep the seal housing from moving should it try to. I hope this puts some closure on concerns about sand seals. I have installed and delt with many of them.

[WannaB-class5]

Sounds great. I get my new case soon and will put one on first thing! Thanks all