Can a turbo last?

[phorensic]

Can a turbo last in the desert? I've been toying around with the idea of forced induction for desert trucks for many years. I've heard all kinds of opinions on how the vibrations of desert racing will kill a turbo. Unfortunately, I never see anybody running one with enough experience to tell me whether or not the vibrations kill the turbo. With a solid mounted motor and tranny and the turbo hanging off a solid exhaust, with a semi-soild intake attached to it, will the vibes hurt it? Will the compressor or turbine actually hit the housing??

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

They are not legal in most classes. But, have you ever seen a Hummer racing in the desert, they seem to make them last.

[therail]

diesels were all over dakar this year, and those did pretty good.

[ntsqd]

I don't think the vibrations of going off road can equal that of it spinning 75k RPM+
Shock loading, maybe. Would want to pay attention to mounting. If you run it momentarily out oil at the same time that you auger-in, that might be an internal problem.

[phorensic]

One of things I think about is that since my truck is a kidney bruiser, is that it would be tougher on a turbo than a nice long travel TT or equiv. Well, my TC Gen 2 kit is sitting on the table in my computer room, so that will smooth it out a bit, but it's still only 12" of stiffly valved travel. I figure with poly mounts on the motor and solid steel headers with the turbo mounted off a flange right on it that the little rocks and g-outs will vibrate the compressor and turbine enough to touch the housings. Mabye you are right, oil starvation and a large hit might be the only thing to make it touch. I guess I need to find the tolerances of everything.

With all that said, you guys just reminded me of all the diesels racing, and that's proof enough that turbos will work. Just gotta see the nitty gritty details on how the turbo and engines are mounted.

[FABRICATOR]

Good question. Most turbos are mounted with shaft parallel to the greatest vibration or movement. That's why inline engines have turbos mounted with the shaft parallel with the block. "V" configured engines are found with turbos mounted either way.

I have seen a few fail for unknown reasons but have never specifically known of one failing because of shock load. Some Diesels, especially small ones, shake so bad they are a blurr at idle, but it does not hurt the turbo. Even with a brand new turbo you can sometimes deflect the shaft enough by hand for the blades to touch the housing. While running, they rely on a film of oil between the shaft and the plain bearing to keep things centered. Most have a restricted fitting in the lube side. It might help to increase the oil flow a little as long as it does not cause leakage past the seals.

I would be more concerned with an engine mount (or any other part) running out of "travel" and hitting metal-to-metal. The optimum setup would likely have the turbo mounted with the shaft parallel to the block (and chassis). My guess is that the bumps and jumps of off-road would not be a problem.

[partybarge_pilot]

The aussies run them all the time and don't seem to have any problems. Most of the off-road race cars down there seem to be small displacment turobs'.

[FABRICATOR]

Oops, meant to say parallel to the axis of the movement. The point is that, at speed, a turbo has a lot of gyroscopic effect and this could be important.

[subrunner]

1st, do not increase the oil flow into the turbo. The reason it's restricted is that the turbo spins so fast that it whips the oil into a froth. Ever notice that the oil return to the pan is much larger than the oil feed line? This is because it's much harder to get that froth back to the pan.

2nd, you're not going to hurt a turbo offroad. The impellor is spinning so fast(75-150k) that they tend to be gyroscopicly(sp?) stable.

[phorensic]

Holy moly. Never heard anyone on the ricer forums talk about a turbo being gyroscopically stable. That one fact made me understand completely why a turbo won't grenade off-road (especially with the fluid bearing).

[FABRICATOR]

Gyroscopically stable? Us dummies call that balanced. The impeller may be stable as a rock, but we are talking about moving the housing. The turbo is not designed for much circular motion, or motion that is not supported across the length of the entire shaft/oil film. Does it matter? Who knows. It's a lousy kind of power for off-road anyway. There's no substitute for cubic inches.

[ChuckH]

Moving a Gyroscopic force out of its plane can cause quite a bit of force at right angles to the object spinning ( force on the fluid bearing ) grab a bike wheel and spin it and hold it by the axle then try and turn it out of its spinning plane.

To minimize those forces in a offroad car a turbo should be mounted so the shaft is spinning in the same plane as the rear axle (left to right)

[subrunner]

<<<<<<Takes a bow

Just kidding, lol :D

[subrunner]

I agree with Chuck, I wasn't talking about balance. If you picture a turbo as 2 aluminium pinwheels attached to a shaft spinning at 75-150k, the centrifugal force acting on the impellors creates quite alot of gyroscopic stability. It's like 2 bicycle wheels hooked together, lol.

Phorensic, is your truck a 4 cyl or V-6? If it's a 4, the turbo from a Ford 2.3 turbo(t-bird) is about perfect and you can get them for like $60. You just need a turbo header. I have a buch of turbo stuff(including EGT) that I'd like to get rid of, so hit me up.

[ACID_RAIN28]

Just cause a Trophy Truck has 20+" of travel dosn't by any means make it a smoother ride in comparason to say a class 7 or so, It just allows the ride in the car to become more violent than say a smaller travel car. There are times when it is like you head is in a paint mixing maching. That is probably the biggest misconception about a TT

[phorensic]

Subrunner, I have a 3.0L v6. Sorry, but I'm not in the market for your turbo stuff right now. A 35mm SLR and lenses are on my priority list right now. Maybe I can fit a T4 in front of the motor when I get my e-fan...yeah right. I was thinking of doing a semi-STS style setup by putting the turbo right next to the tranny where there is actually some room for it after the exhaust crosses over. And yes, it would be skidplated like crazy.

[Samco Fab]

From my experience with turbos on off road cars, the exhaust is what fails most of the time. You typically have more heat in the exhaust with a turbo, so better materials must be used. Mild steel is not a good cantidate, use 304 stainless minimum, and 321 if your funding permits.
Also heat expansion can cause problems. Sometimes you will need a flexible stainless bellow to allow for expansion, on a V8 feeding into a single turbo, you will probably need them on either side of the cylinder heads.

Burns stainless sells a lot of good parts to fab your own stuff.

[Jarvis]

Does it matter? Who knows. It's a lousy kind of power for off-road anyway. There's no substitute for cubic inches.

Man i hope thats a joke you know that if they made them legal all the top teams would have them. You get the same power with lower weight where is the drawback.

[John F2000]

Man i hope thats a joke you know that if they made them legal all the top teams would have them. You get the same power with lower weight where is the drawback.

I agree. A blower is like adding cubic inches.

"Can a turbo last" Yes
1. Gyroscopic effect and parrellel plane..... never heard of it. Just make sure the oil drain is going down to gravity feed.
2. Vibration effects on turbo... Irrelevent in an off road application
3. Bouncing or jumping....again irrelevent. Off shore boats been using them for years. The bouncing can have a long term effect and you can spend money for a ball bearing turbo. But by the time a bushing turbo would wear out you would have already gone thru your motor several times and the non-ball bearing is very cheep to re-build
4. Make sure to size the housing much smaller than a street application to eliminate turbo lag.
5. yes you can mount the turbos to the frame, note attached picture. Just make sure motor is solid mounted and you have a strong cage/frame.
6. Key to off road turbo is the exhaust. Use 321 stainless on head pipes, 1/2 steel flange, and a 321 bellows doesnt hurt.

In the end a properly set up turbo motor is great in the dirt and gives you the ability to raise or lower your boost depending on fuel availability.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h34/fordf2000/DS0502_MIM-1.jpg

[Jarvis]

A supercharger would work well to no lag and extra power straight off the mark.

[John F2000]

A supercharger would work well to no lag and extra power straight off the mark.

Yes, but you loose the benefit of adjusting boost without raising your intake temp too much. Having the ability in a pre-runner to drive on pump gas when thats all that is avail then swtiching to race gas and bumping hp up by 250hp is a big plus.

I have a 10-71 roots blown 572 and this twin turbo 460. My boost comes on sooner in the twin turbo than the roots blower motor. Boost comes on at 2,200 rpm just out of the stall on the converter. A postitive disp blower you have to set your boost at max rpm, so you dont overboost, or you have a bleed valve, but that raises intake temps. Especiallly in a pump gas situation.

Also, if you trash the impellers on a turbo, lot cheaper than the rotors on a blower.

Both are great, I found turbo the best combo for the dirt.

By the way your favorite video you list I just saw for the first time, what a great video. Best edited I have ever seen. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3368948773832597270&q=Pikes+Peak

[Jarvis]

Thanks its rally style stuff which is really what im into. Two questions as you seem to be the only person on here that knows anything about turbos and such.

a) Do you run an intercooler if so which one?.

b) Did you read my thread on restrictors? Im having huge trouble if you got a second it would be a great help.

Thanks

[John F2000]

Thanks its rally style stuff which is really what im into. Two questions as you seem to be the only person on here that knows anything about turbos and such.

a) Do you run an intercooler if so which one?.

b) Did you read my thread on restrictors? Im having huge trouble if you got a second it would be a great help.

Thanks

a). yes two spearco air to air intercoolers. Not as big as I would like, but space started to become an issue, so something was better than nothing.

b) havent read the thread, send me a link and I will read it.

[Jarvis]

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26014

Thanks

[partybarge_pilot]

John, did you have the UMP's on the motor when you dyno'd it?

[John F2000]

John, did you have the UMP's on the motor when you dyno'd it?

Yes, UMP's meaning the filters? we dynoed with exactly what the truck would be running with including mufflers. Primary reason for the first dyno, especially when using a carb, is to make sure the a/f ratio is right on so we dont toast the motor.

[jeff]

Back from the dead after almost two years of inactivity... what brought this post back to the forefront?

Aloha

[pphat]

Samco Fab found it and bump started it, Aloha!

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12871&page=2

[Jarvis]

But it was well worth it so i could fall in love with John F2000's F2000. I was wondering if it was available not to buy but to marry and lay down and snuggle on cold winters nights i would love her like no other and i would always treat her like a princess. We would grow old together and watch as our children and our childrens children grow and flurish. And when our time has come and we can look back on our life of happy times together i will no i made the right choice in a life partner.

[jeff]

So does that mean Samco Fab is interested in turbo'ing something? My guess is this was searched out for... I love turbo's. Singles, twins... boost in general.

Are turbo's reliable? Look at heavy equipment. Buses. Generators. Boats. High mileage Subaru's ;) With clean oil and a clean air supply a turbo will last a "hecka" long time. I wish SCORE would open up that rule. Might be sketchy to see what happens with a few lbs of boost in a TT... but imagine what would happen to a t-charged 10 car! Gnar gnar at its finest!

Aloha

[John F2000]

So does that mean Samco Fab is interested in turbo'ing something? My guess is this was searched out for... I love turbo's. Singles, twins... boost in general.

Are turbo's reliable? Look at heavy equipment. Buses. Generators. Boats. High mileage Subaru's ;) With clean oil and a clean air supply a turbo will last a "hecka" long time. I wish SCORE would open up that rule. Might be sketchy to see what happens with a few lbs of boost in a TT... but imagine what would happen to a t-charged 10 car! Gnar gnar at its finest!

Aloha

I agree, reliablilty is not an issue. Re SCORE opening the rules. I would imagine if it happens it would be with an unlimited class. In a TT the difference of someone having 800 hp versus 1,500 hp would play a small role, if any, in their finishing order, except maybey for Laughlin. The limiting factor on a TT is not the engine but the drivetrain and suspension. The benefit of having a blown TT motor would be reliability and cost. Much cheaper motor and you dont have to rev it to make hp. The other benefit which will probably be the motivating factor is that it allows import sponsored TT's to compete due to lack of cubic inches. IF they allow it, unfortunately they will do something stupid and say a blown motor can only be xxx cubic inches. This doesnt necessarily help cost or reliability, but would be a political issue.

Regarding a blown class 10. I dont see it hapening since you can take a 200 hp 4cyl and make an unreliable 600 hp, which costs money and you loose reliability, which means money. And then the suspension/drivetrain is not the limiting factor the motor is, which defeats the purpose of the class.

Classes which would be good to allow blown motors would be TT's, and class 8. TT's need a distinction between class 1. After all they are Trophy Trucks. And class 8 to allow the average guy to be able to afford a motor to be competitive instead of being forced to purchase a $60,000 motor for his $40,000 rig. 900 Hp blown motor can be built for $15,000.

[movindirt]

I think SCORE needs to at least allow turbos on all diesels (wiether it came with it stock or not) or maybe a turbos in sportsman. I have always been very interested in turbos. I have driven a few production cars with turbos and I loved them, to bad they were not mine..

[Goatpoker]

I've never know mechanical motion to be the killer of a turbo in the dirt. It's always the dirt! Air & Oil Filtration is the key for longevity.

I've go over 5000 off-road/sand miles on my turbo and no failures.

The smooth torque curve and load dependent nature of a turbo motor is also nice on the drivetrain. Big cubes break stuff!