091 6 Rib Trans; How good are they and how much power can they handle in a sand car.

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

I'm looking at building another toy for next years sand season. I have always played with cars and trucks i.e. motor, trans, Rear end (basic bigger is better stuff). Never a semi-serious trans-axle deal. I have 2 standard issue swing axle sand cars now, 2180 and 2275cc that run good are fun and no probs.


I'm looking to do a 3rd car with an EFI, Twin Turbo charged, Supercharged and NOS 13B Rotary. I know it is a lot of crap to put on one motor but it will be massively detuned and just for bling factor along with uniqueness. At times I may set up boost and NOS jetting to put me in the 325-400HP ranges.

Car will be a 2 seat, basic coil-over, trailing arm IRS/a-arm long travel car est. @ 1300-1500 lbs dry. I expect to do some standard heavy dune action.

I'm not going to run a Mend/Fort trans.

My question to some guys on RDC who know: I'm planning 930 cv/axles be fine or do I HAVE TO go 934. Can the 091 be reliable enough for this application (325-400HP)? If so what mods do you recommend? And finally the big question; How much power can they handle?

Also, is it doable not side stepping the clutch everywhere I go. I can feed the power as recommended.

[Ryan_P]

When I had my 091 box done, it was built to handle up to 300hp with reliability in mind. Even though I am only going to be running a 2386 Type 1 motor, it will be able to handle the amount of hp.

930's will be fine for that application, but if you choose to want more strength, I advice 934's. I think you MIGHT be fine with an 091 box, but it's just a toss up in the air.

Some sand cars and buggy's run 091 boxes with V-8's and are fine, the thing that kills these transmissions is the skipping off-road, loosing traction the grabbing blows the spider gears. Also, when people get stuck, they throw the tranny into reverse and kills all internals because the reverse on an 091 box can't handle all that torque, it's a low end gear.

-Ryan

[DailyPedal]

"I'm not going to run a Mend/Fort trans."
I know this is smart-ass but I guess you know more than all of those other sandcar builders know that gave up on trying to put that much horsepower behind a VW trans originally designed for less than 80 horses. You are doubling the amount of horsepower that the trans(mainly r/p and mainshaft) can handle (200hp for over $4000!!!) if you plan to really have fun with the car. If you baby it, then maybe...but you know best

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

"I know this is smart-ass but I guess you know more than all of those other sandcar builders know "

Thanks for the knowledgeable input.

NEXT.

[WannaB-class5]

Here is all I can add. A great friends car with an estimated 250hp went through three 002 and 1 091. He drove like a freak! doing wheelies and....well only doing wheelies! He was thinking the same thing as you (well the 002's were cheap for him) but he gave up and found a fortin.

I know its not what you are hoping to hear so maybe there are some others out there with personal experience that don't drop the clutch at 3500 RPM. best of luck and let us know when that car gets started!

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

What is the problem? Ring and Pinion?

[Ryan_P]

What is the problem? Ring and Pinion?

That and the splines on the main gear shaft going to the motor, really small and weak. However, a Mendeola 2D(i believe it's the one) doesn't have much larger of splines. Therefore, if I was going to do the jump to a Mendeola, I would go with a 4D. Just my opinion.

-Ryan

[ThingOw181]

Your biggest problem is going to be RPM. That engine is going to make that power at the top end. When I was looking into a rotary conversion for my Thing, everyone I spoke to reminded me that even built VW's don't spend much time over 6 or 7 thousand RPM, and the oiling/lubricating properties of the trans tend to not work as well as RPM goes up. I'd be looking into something bigger and better. I run an 091 now that I have put the hurt on with my very heavy (2200 ish I think) Thing with a decent 1776, 4 puck clutch and 1300+ paddles. I just picked up a nice used Transaxle Engineering 002 that I am hoping will hold up to the new 2161 I am putting together. Over-build, you dont want to spend money on something that is just going to pop.

Jordan

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

Good points. Thanks.

[therail]

What is the problem? Ring and Pinion?
thats what happened on my bud's sand car. 091 with a 4.0L aurora V-8. nowhere close to a force-inducted 13b powerwise and we destroyed his gears in one weekend at the dunes. by the time he had the 091 originally built-up, and then rebuilt to sell, the price wasnt too far off of a new mendeola, the 4e i believe he is running now. a fortin may be a little too much, but the mendeola is a solid bet if you steer away from the 091.

one more thing, those Hp numbers. from what ive heard, the numbers are measured for street car usage, drag bugs id guess. but anyways, sand isnt forgiving like pavement, seems wierd. the paddles will hookup and grab like no other, giving you more traction than whatd youd find on a typical asphalt strip. so, once again, from what i understand its best to reduce those numbers to be on the safe side, and save your tranny.

if im wrong someone let me know, but its just some food for thought.

[powerbox_builder]

Top finishing 1600 cars can crack an 091 R&P in one race. They only have 65 HP! They are off the ground a lot which is different from a sand car. For sand cars I wouldn't reccomend more than 200HP for a 091. For some reason rotarys are particulary hard on transmissions and the bus trannys usually don't hold up too well, mabey because of what Jordan was saying.

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

Thanks for the input.

[Sandmaster]

The 091 is good for smaller 4 bangers and maybe the occasional easy going V6. With any amount of power over about 275 - 300 your asking for problems. The Mendeola @d was specifically designed for this application. For any lengthy use your best bet is to install the 2D now because if you go back and do it later (which you will) you have total different mounts, etc. Can be costly to do it later.

[5racer]

you will have the same or not more money in rebuilding the 091 all the time than you would have if you bought the mendy first bus trannys are a thing of the past.

[WannaB-class5]

Yes my friends bus trans were all ring and pinion issues I believe (I know two of them were). He went to a fortin because a fellow RDCer gave him a deal! but mendy is the cheaper (read "very expensive but cheaper than Fortin") but very reliable way I hear!

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

The 091 is good for smaller 4 bangers and maybe the occasional easy going V6. With any amount of power over about 275 - 300 your asking for problems. The Mendeola @d was specifically designed for this application. For any lengthy use your best bet is to install the 2D now because if you go back and do it later (which you will) you have total different mounts, etc. Can be costly to do it later.


Alan, thanx a bunch for this input. So would you say anything below 250HP in a 091 would last a season? Does a Puck, twin disc clutch or a lighter clutch or anything like that make a big differance with reliability?

I was checking out your site and others yesterday for a frame kit.

BTW....Just for spits and giggles...What's the going rate for a bare bones Mendeola and how much HP can it take?

[therail]

For any lengthy use your best bet is to install the 2D now because if you go back and do it later (which you will) you have total different mounts, etc. Can be costly to do it later.
Excellent point. The 2d's are also narrower than the 091, which means you'll need longert axles.

[Sandmaster]

Alan, thanx a bunch for this input. So would you say anything below 250HP in a 091 would last a season? Does a Puck, twin disc clutch or a lighter clutch or anything like that make a big differance with reliability?

I was checking out your site and others yesterday for a frame kit.

BTW....Just for spits and giggles...What's the going rate for a bare bones Mendeola and how much HP can it take?

What makes them last is really how you drive. That's usually why racers transmissions last longer than sand guys is because reacers are good drivers. (SHHHHH, you didn't hear the from me. :) ) An 091 will last a season pretty easily behind 250 HP. We have tons of them behind Shortstar motors that are 290 HP and similar torque. At the same time, we have a customer that has the Shortstar and a really built 091. It usually last him a weekend.

The E Model Medeola runs around $4,500. So far we've never had a problem with an E Model behind anything 350 HP or less.

The 4 speed 2D Model runs around $6,900 depending on who builds it. Transworks builds one of the best. Eric really knows his stuff and has a special mainshaft upgrade that no body else has. This trans is rated for 550 HP. If your running it behind a V8 with any amount of torque over 350 Ft. #'s, plan on pulling it out at least every other season for a freshen up.

If your going to run a V8, for the best results you really need to run the S4 at minimum. In my opinion the best tranny for a V8 is the Fortin 4 speed with a torque convertor.

Hope that helps.

[class7s]

I run 091 in my turbo saburu that puts out about 300HP. WE have no problems with it what so ever, just use good parts and they should last a good season or two

[ChuckH]

There is a much cheaper way to go that will take 500+ HP easy ( if you run a mid engine) you have to think outside the box though.

With todays high HP motors for the sand there needs to be a mind shift

[ChuckH]

Oh yea, i forgot..... i think rear mounted V8 sand rails that run around Wheeling are lame.:D

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

Oh yea, i forgot..... i think rear mounted V8 sand rails that run around Wheeling are lame.:D

Just because yours won't wheelie? LOL!!!

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

What makes them last is really how you drive. That's usually why racers transmissions last longer than sand guys is because reacers are good drivers. (SHHHHH, you didn't hear the from me. :) ) An 091 will last a season pretty easily behind 250 HP. We have tons of them behind Shortstar motors that are 290 HP and similar torque. At the same time, we have a customer that has the Shortstar and a really built 091. It usually last him a weekend.

The E Model Medeola runs around $4,500. So far we've never had a problem with an E Model behind anything 350 HP or less.

The 4 speed 2D Model runs around $6,900 depending on who builds it. Transworks builds one of the best. Eric really knows his stuff and has a special mainshaft upgrade that no body else has. This trans is rated for 550 HP. If your running it behind a V8 with any amount of torque over 350 Ft. #'s, plan on pulling it out at least every other season for a freshen up.

If your going to run a V8, for the best results you really need to run the S4 at minimum. In my opinion the best tranny for a V8 is the Fortin 4 speed with a torque convertor.

Hope that helps.


Alan Thanks a ton for the solid input and answering all my questions. Helps a lot getting info from someone who actually has expertise. I knew I would get the typical input "Just get a Medeola or Fortin" But I know the 091 is a great intermediate option. Just needed to know its limits. And you defiantly filled the information void. I know the Medeola is about 5k but I have heard as of late there is a problem with the case wearing out and you will have to redo every summer anyways. Have you hear about this case wear? Something to do with the input shaft bearing or something?

I'm waiting for the new powerglide transaxle deal to come out then pump up the boost and change over then. An automatic seems much more friendly.

[ChuckH]

Just because yours won't wheelie? LOL!!!

im going to hang a 3406 diesel Caterpillar motor off the back of my buggy so it wheelies sitting still, i figure two people sitting in the seats it will bring it down so its almost drivable, that should impress the flat bill crowd :D

powerglide transaxle... your on the right track

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

im going to hang a 3406 diesel Caterpillar motor off the back of my buggy so it wheelies sitting still, i figure two people sitting in the seats it will bring it down so its almost drivable, that should impress the flat bill crowd :D

powerglide transaxle... your on the right track

Now that's some funny Sh!+!!! LOL

[NIKAL]

Don't waste your time with putting an 091 in your buggy. It sounds like you are building a fairly expencive buggy to begin with so don't go cheep on your gear box. Mendeola is a great box to use. I race a 5/1600 car and we were replacing our 091 R&P every race as we were finding stress cracks. When the 091 in the prerunner goes I will probably put a Mendeola in it. It will take a little fab work but I think it is worth it. A Mendeola E2 box is only about 5 or 6 hundred more then we pay for our race built 091 box's. I would rather have a solid car that goes all weeked then have a lot of "bling". Skip the chrome and use Krylon to make up the 5 or 6 hundred dollers. I would suggest calling Dave at McDowell Performance in El Cajon (619) 449-0996. He is an authorised Mendeola dealer. He is very good and very fair. He also does bus boxs. Dave could give you an honest pro's and con's about both 091 and the bigger boxs.

[Ryan_P]

im going to hang a 3406 diesel Caterpillar motor off the back of my buggy so it wheelies sitting still, i figure two people sitting in the seats it will bring it down so its almost drivable, that should impress the flat bill crowd :D

powerglide transaxle... your on the right track

Chuck, don't waste your time with a Cat, they have more top end, I would recommend a Detroit 60 Series for the low end torque, wheelies are rad bro! LOL

-Ryan

[Sandmaster]

Alan Thanks a ton for the solid input and answering all my questions. Helps a lot getting info from someone who actually has expertise. I knew I would get the typical input "Just get a Medeola or Fortin" But I know the 091 is a great intermediate option. Just needed to know its limits. And you defiantly filled the information void. I know the Medeola is about 5k but I have heard as of late there is a problem with the case wearing out and you will have to redo every summer anyways. Have you hear about this case wear? Something to do with the input shaft bearing or something?

I'm waiting for the new powerglide transaxle deal to come out then pump up the boost and change over then. An automatic seems much more friendly.

I haven't heard any bad about the E model case. I usually put in about 16 of those a year and to date i've only had two come back & that was because the owners have no clue how to drive. The 091 is a good tranny for a light sandcar with about 250 - 275 HP if your on a budget. Of course eveyone wants to put in a Fortin, AGB, S4, Mendeola 2D,etc, But sometimes budget doesn't allow it. Do plan on pulling the 091 after a couple seasons and at very mimimum & having it freshened up. That way you can catch expensive mistake before they happen.

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

"Do plan on pulling the 091 after a couple seasons and at very mimimum & having it freshened up. That way you can catch expensive mistake before they happen."

Alan, More great input. Who's your 091 builder?

I think it's funny how people can just say..."Put a Mendeola in it" While they are driving their Datsun B-210 to Domino's just before they start their shift. Or they have bigger bucks than me. Some people don't read the first post and get the clue. This Thread was all about the 091. LOL

I'm waiting for the next person to chime in and say..." Why are you messing with a rotary? You should run a Twin Turbo RamJet 502 with a B&J transaxle."

Dudes!!! I already run 2 sand cars and want to add a third. I take all my friends, co-workers and family out and every body gets a chance to drive and ride. Now I want to build another slightly upgraded car. I'm not looking to refinance my house and have some friend or family member total a 50K rail. Just want to build a third car a notch or two above the others.

However, I do like Chuck's input about the Cat motor... Wheeeeeeeeeelie Machine!!! LOL

Actually, I just got a new JMR manual bender at The off road swap meet and am going to start a new thread because I am going to change one of the cars to match the other so I will have twins. See pics...

[powerbox_builder]

[QUOTE=FlyHiFlyLo7] I know the Medeola is about 5k but I have heard as of late there is a problem with the case wearing out and you will have to redo every summer anyways. Have you hear about this case wear? Something to do with the input shaft bearing or something?

There are two different size rear mainshaft(input shaft) bearings available for the MDs. And builders have there reasons for going with one or the other. The smaller one tends to fail easier(sooner). The larger (OD) one means the case gets opened up a little more. This doesn't leave much room between that hole and the pinion bore. Eventually the case will crack between the two holes. Most builders have gone to the bigger bearing now with the reasoning that, if the little bearing fails your weekend/race could be over, if your case cracks you probably won't even know untill next time your tranny gets opened up.

I agree with Sandmaster ,the driver really makes the differance. I have several 091s on turbo Subarus and a few on 4.3 Chevys that have gone many seasons.

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

[QUOTE=FlyHiFlyLo7] I know the Medeola is about 5k but I have heard as of late there is a problem with the case wearing out and you will have to redo every summer anyways. Have you hear about this case wear? Something to do with the input shaft bearing or something?

There are two different size rear mainshaft(input shaft) bearings available for the MDs. And builders have there reasons for going with one or the other. The smaller one tends to fail easier(sooner). The larger (OD) one means the case gets opened up a little more. This doesn't leave much room between that hole and the pinion bore. Eventually the case will crack between the two holes. Most builders have gone to the bigger bearing now with the reasoning that, if the little bearing fails your weekend/race could be over, if your case cracks you probably won't even know untill next time your tranny gets opened up.

I agree with Sandmaster ,the driver really makes the differance. I have several 091s on turbo Subarus and a few on 4.3 Chevys that have gone many seasons.

Jim thanks for that input on the Mendeola. I knew there was something up, just wasn't sure as to the specifics.