Mezzanine arm rear suspension?

[subrunner]

I was talking with Nate from Blitzkrieg about this at ROR. I'm a little confused about how it works. Would anyone care to enlighten me? Pics would be great. Sounds like an interesting setup. Especially for an SUV.

[ntsqd]

Never heard that term b4. Can you expand on what you're talking about?

[BAPerf]

I think he's refering to the rear mounted linkage system used by the Baldwin's, Kyle Taylor, and various Bryan Kudela (sp?) designed trucks.

[Sites]

Taylor's yes, Baldwins, no. Those are two differnet setups.

I think he's refering to the rear mounted linkage system used by the Baldwin's, Kyle Taylor, and various Bryan Kudela (sp?) designed trucks.

[01Baja4x4]

Is it the same thing as a cantilever setup?

-Tim

[amrein1743]

I think I have heard it been called a "nezzie" (sp?) arm. If I remember correctly I think I was told this name was made up by (Jon?) Nelson when they built the rear suspension (similar to Kyle Taylors) on the old Chevy class 8's

[Brice]

this is kind of a crappy picture but you get the idea. it is like your traditional 4 link system with two parallel tubes mounting at the corners of the axel to an area close to the bottom of the frame rails or chassis, and the two tubes that locate the axel from the top of the axel to the outer-inside of the frame rails. the difference is that the load and dampning units are carried on two additional arms usually mounted behind the axel and connect to the axel via tierods(the ''mezzine(sp) arm).

the ''advantages'' of this system is a more polarized weight distribution and the ability to set up the shock to work progressively, while also allowing you to run a little shorter shock, depending on where the shock is mounted off the actual mezzine(sp) arm.

the ''disadvantages'' of the system is that it is more complex and the weight distribution of the whole contraption is very polarized, which will affect handling.

there could be a seperate discussion on how to set up a truck, with either the weight bias cery polarized....such as a front engined mezzine armed truck (like the pechanski bros truck) as compared to a very centered truck like almost all of the trophy trucks.


personally...if i were to build a 7 or 8 truck, i might look into a mezzine arm link setup to better counter the placement of the engine, but with the ability to run a tube chassis (like a trophy truck) i would want the weight to be as centered as possible, but thats just me.

[subrunner]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I'm thinking that would be a good setup for the suburban to keep mor interior room. I wonder if you could make a setup like that work with leaves? I looks to me that you could.

[BA_DirtDriver]

It is a Nezzy arm, or at least thats what I've always called it on my blazer or a 5 / toggle link. I'll attach some pics on monday from my work computer as there aren't any here at home.

Bret

[tedmales]

it would seem to me that one of advantages of that set up would be it takes the weight loading of of the lower link. all that link needs to do is control the rear end, not support the truck.

[NOODLE]

This setup done right also eliminates alot of body roll a.k.a(better handling in turns) at the rear of the truck keeping weight distributed to the rear and outside of the chassis. At parker i remember watching the conventionaly linked trucks taking the first corner off main street and watching the rear of the trucks come way up requiring them to slow down significantly more than Taylors truck which took the corner MUCH faster with hardly any leaning. It took the corner more like an indy car. And i know for a fact he runs a very light sway bar setup on the rear.

[NOODLE]

here are a couple of pics of trucks with that setup

[FABRICATOR]

Notice also that the main trailing arms are just a straight piece of tubing.

[ntsqd]

OK, talk about a mis-used term.

I have two thots on this design.

I doubt it reduces rear unsprung weight and suspect that it mildly increases it. From the coil-over's mounting point to the axle housing counts as unsprung. So it removes the structure from the lower links, but puts it back in the form of other links. Plus, it adds three more pivot points which translates into three more failure modes.

I can't see how it could change roll stiffness. Roll stiffness is either spring rate or swaybar spring rate. You can cause a delay with valving, but you aren't changing the roll spring rate. If a truck with this spring attachment design corners flatter than a c/o's on the lower links design, I think there is something else going on.

I can see where such a design would work out well in terms of fitting a Suburban, but there are simpler options depending on the goals.

[MH20]

This setup done right also eliminates alot of body roll a.k.a(better handling in turns) at the rear of the truck keeping weight distributed to the rear and outside of the chassis. At parker i remember watching the conventionaly linked trucks taking the first corner off main street and watching the rear of the trucks come way up requiring them to slow down significantly more than Taylors truck which took the corner MUCH faster with hardly any leaning. It took the corner more like an indy car. And i know for a fact he runs a very light sway bar setup on the rear.

I remember Tony B mentioning that the cornering ability of Taylor's truck was more due to the reversed placement of the upper links:

The rear suspension employs the Mezzanine arm comfiguration for better weight transfer to the rear, while the upper links mounted to the outside ends of the rear end housing, provides more stability during hard/high-speed cornering. The truck was designed to compliment Kyle's driving style, while sitting as low as possible.

[partybarge_pilot]

"I remember Tony B mentioning that the cornering ability of Taylor's truck was more due to the reversed placement of the upper links:"

Nope, that ain't it either. I did notice on Kyles truck that the load arms are about as far out on the axle as you can get. This probibly does more for roll stiffness than anything else.

[subrunner]

OK, talk about a mis-used term.


I can see where such a design would work out well in terms of fitting a Suburban, but there are simpler options depending on the goals.
My reasoning on the Suburban is that I have 5 kids and not having the shocks above the axle would allow me to have 2 seats in the 3rd row position.

[Jerry Zaiden]

The negitive I see is the fact that you add more moving parts. You also add more time to build the truck as well as if you get hit from the rear you stand a chance of damage to the suspension.

The only positive I can see is the fact that you move more weight to the rear of the truck. This would work well if you have a weight bias problem. i also notice these trucks seem to fly noce high; more so than most trucks with shocks off the lower links.

The great thing about off-road racing is there is no 1 way to fo it. All these trucks have faired well over the years. Not to mention that Jason Baldwin was points champ last year in a truck that was built over 10 years ago. This was done in a truck with a cantileiver suspension as well.

This design is also found on many high end MT bikes. The reason why they do it is because they can have a rising or falling rate to the suspension depending if the bike is a DH bike or a XC Bike.

[matt_helton]

i also notice these trucks seem to fly noce high; more so than most trucks with shocks off the lower links.





isnt that a good thing?

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

Isn't the Sway bar contained within the upper Mezzanine pivot? Now does it really add more pivots?

Setting up a Mezzanine suspension correctly- adds many more variables/unknowns to total suspension performance prior to actually building it. A standard link set-up is pretty much a sure thing out of the box as far as geometry. And saves much weight because the standard link setup utilizes many structures already within the cage design. IE B-pillar.

I like the trophy limo idea! That's cool. The Mezzanine setup will ensure lots of cabin space.

[Jerry Zaiden]

Isn't the Sway bar contained within the upper Mezzanine pivot? Now does it really add more pivots?

Setting up a Mezzanine suspension correctly- adds many more variables/unknowns to total suspension performance prior to actually building it. A standard link set-up is pretty much a sure thing out of the box as far as geometry. And saves much weight because the standard link setup utilizes many structures already within the cage design. IE B-pillar.

I like the trophy limo idea! That's cool. The Mezzanine setup will ensure lots of cabin space.


It will add 3 more pivots.

As for geometry it does not make any difference because both still have a 3 or 4 link. (If the design is a good one). The diference is where the shocks mount. 1 way has the shocks off the lower links the other has them off a cantilever. There is not a right or wrong way. Baldwins trucks are very well performing trucks. I just like the simple aproach to these trucks because they are so unreliable to begin with. Why make a truck with more things to go wrong?

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

It will add 3 more pivots.

1. As for geometry it does not make any difference because both still have a 3 or 4 link. (If the design is a good one).


2. I just like the simple aproach to these trucks because they are so unreliable to begin with. Why make a truck with more things to go wrong?

1. Where? Doesn't the sway bar already have 3 per side now? Isn't it just like adding shocks to the swaybar arm. (curving the arm to allow shock clearence)?

2. So true! that is really the bottom line.."Why make a truck with more things to go wrong?"

[Jerry Zaiden]

1. Where? Doesn't the sway bar already have 3 per side now? Isn't it just like adding shocks to the swaybar arm. (curving the arm to allow shock clearence)?

2. So true! that is really the bottom line.."Why make a truck with more things to go wrong?"

Think of it this way. If they sway bar link fails do you still finish your race?

My only worry about the suspension set up with cantilevers is if you get hit from the rear you could be out of the race ( look at where the rear link pivots from). Also note the sway bar mount.


CHECK OUT THIS PICTURE
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6829

[stuckthrottle]

I've created this clip to maybe help(?) with this discussion.

http://www.stuck-throttle.com/index.php?ind=downloads&op=entry_view&iden=53

[ntsqd]

Isn't the Sway bar contained within the upper Mezzanine pivot? Now does it really add more pivots?

It may or may not be. Regardless those pivot points are now carrying more than swaybar loads. To do that they need to be bigger adding unsprung and as Jerry noted, if they fail you are done for the day. Whereas if they are only swaybar pivots they'll slow you down if they fail but won't stop you.

I'm not against it, I think for the application the idea has merit. I just think it's a good idea to know what sort of compromises you're making. Were I going to do this, I would set up the motion ratio and related geometry identical to how you would if the c/o's were on the lower links. That way you're dealing with geometry most ppl understand, you've just remoted it to the rear of the truck.

[NOODLE]

"I remember Tony B mentioning that the cornering ability of Taylor's truck was more due to the reversed placement of the upper links:"

Nope, that ain't it either. I did notice on Kyles truck that the load arms are about as far out on the axle as you can get. This probibly does more for roll stiffness than anything else.

Yes, I imagine all of these items come into play. I bet the one person who could explain it best is the one who built it.

Ahh and to STUCKTHROTTLE, that is a bitchen video clip of Kyle and Dirks. Kyle is FLYIN!!!!!!

[WannaB-class5]

I just wanted to say I love this site because of threads like this! RDC rocks! Now if more of us would make cool desert videos as examples..... ;-)

[Greg]

Victor, great footage. Since there seems to be alot of people talking about the pros and cons of this design, yet noone who's actually BUILT one of these set-ups. Can anyone who has worked with both designs comment on the real world effects of such a design. Thanks.

[Tony_Barraza]

Looks like there is plenty of renewed interest in this topic, so I am reposting the pics of Taylor's setup.

http://www.tbdesignworks.com/Images/TaylorTT8.gif

http://www.tbdesignworks.com/Images/TaylorTT12.gif

http://www.tbdesignworks.com/Images/TaylorTT13.gif

Also, here are the pics of the Nelson & Nelson setup from '92, as well as Westhem's Nelson-designed configuration from '93.

http://www.tbdesignworks.com/Images/Nelson.92B1K.gif

http://www.tbdesignworks.com/Images/Westhem8.93Parker.gif

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

Looks like there is plenty of renewed interest in this topic, so I am reposting the pics of Taylor's setup.


That's so SIC!

Looks like he has his Sway bay mount seperate too.

It's funny seeing those lighting rods on Raglands truck now..LOL those used to be the shiznit!

[CRAIGHALL]

Anybody seen the red EXTRAcab ranger with this style suspension?Not the one thats been seen for sale in the last year or so.I saw this truck at the 97' 1000 93-97 body style,extra cab,4wd,big fabricated dash and interior tube work was half hidden by sheetmetal welded in.I'll post a a few pics later,I've never seen the truck again..

[CRAIGHALL]

Some photo's

[WoodyW]

You know, it just dawned on me...I think I'll call this thing a "Hemet Arm" because most of the proponents of this suspension are from there. I mean Taylors, (Dave Turner), Nelson, shoot....I think you'd be hard pressed to find a "hemet arm" on a truck that didn't come from hemet! and you know, lots of other good stuff comes out of Hemet too....must be the Dairy Air. (or is it Derriere?) in any case....you can obviously get a hemet arm-ed truck to work well-- and as long as the trucks are fast...we're in good shape.

[BAPerf]

I think Dave Clark works for/ on Kyle's team in San Jacinto (still Hemet area). Dave Turner is from Hemet, but I believe he's more into the Jeep vehicles.



You know, it just dawned on me...I think I'll call this thing a "Hemet Arm" because most of the proponents of this suspension are from there. I mean Taylors, (Dave Turner), Nelson, shoot....I think you'd be hard pressed to find a "hemet arm" on a truck that didn't come from hemet! and you know, lots of other good stuff comes out of Hemet too....must be the Dairy Air. (or is it Derriere?) in any case....you can obviously get a hemet arm-ed truck to work well-- and as long as the trucks are fast...we're in good shape.

[PBR]

my brother had a blazer(sold it to buy butch) the had a "hemet arm", i think for the burb you can't go wrong. i will see if i can come up with some pics of it when it was being built.

butch is one of jon nelson's creations with the hemet arm and anyone who has seen our truck up close knows it is truly a work of art... does it handle better, is it faster than a conventional 4 link... who knows... all i know is that every truck with the setup works.

[NOODLE]

You know, it just dawned on me...I think I'll call this thing a "Hemet Arm" because most of the proponents of this suspension are from there. I mean Taylors, (Dave Turner), Nelson, shoot....I think you'd be hard pressed to find a "hemet arm" on a truck that didn't come from hemet! and you know, lots of other good stuff comes out of Hemet too....must be the Dairy Air. (or is it Derriere?) in any case....you can obviously get a hemet arm-ed truck to work well-- and as long as the trucks are fast...we're in good shape.

Also, Leon Patton grew up here and has his engine shop here in Hemet. Rod Hall grew up in Winchester/Hemet(he and my grandpa were best buds). Hemet is full of Off-road/Desert Racing History.

[Jack]

This is the same place that the quarter liptic would pivot from.

[partybarge_pilot]

Hey Ollie, Can you make those pics a little larger?

[ntsqd]

This is the same place that the quarter liptic would pivot from.

One of the options I was thinking of in my post above. Having hefted some 1/4's built by National back in the day, they are heavy. Possibly heavier than the 'Hemet link' and damperens & coil-overs.

[Ramsey_ElWardani]

Romoland is just down the street from Hemet, it must be in the water. Or could it be that Jon Nelson spread his seed all over the Hemet valley?
http://class8.org/images/Patelli2.JPG

[91yotaprerunner]

also randy davisson, one of the first people to work with the 383 stroker, inventor of the air bag suspension, and just an all around smart guy. he knows his stuff when it comes to motors, suspensions, and many other things. pretty cool guy.

[NOODLE]

also randy davisson, one of the first people to work with the 383 stroker, inventor of the air bag suspension, and just an all around smart guy. he knows his stuff when it comes to motors, suspensions, and many other things. pretty cool guy.

He used to build Walker Evans Engines too. Currently he builds Taylors Engines.

[PBR]

Hey Ollie, Can you make those pics a little larger?

i found those pics on the web, i will look through my pics tonight and see if i can come up with anything.

[Tony_Barraza]

...and you know, lots of other good stuff comes out of Hemet too....

I'm sure Woodrow was thinking of me when he made this statement :)

LOL!

Thanks buddy!

[PBR]

here are some pics of my brothers old blazer with the "hemet arm"

[grantdcol]

Someday a year from now somebody's gonna come on here asking about how to build a 'Hemet Arm' and nobody will know what the hell they're talking about!

Seems to me, the advantage other than weight bias is the highly progressive motion ratio that's possible with that short of an arm. Although, with position-sensitive shocks, that's not as much of an issue.

-Colin

[subrunner]

What I'm thinking of doing is running a straighter arm and mounting the shock up higher because I'm still going to run leaves and I don't want the arms to interfere with the leaves.

[WoodyW]

if someone asks how to build a Hemet arm in year- 1. they have no business building Hemet arms 2. I will laugh my butt off. 3. Hopefully we will have progressed to "San Jacinto Linkage" by then.

[ACID_RAIN28]

Now thats funny right there!!!

[McClintock]

Via the Expo, 2004.

[FlyHiFlyLo7]

That one has the sway bar incorporated.

[ntsqd]

Via the Expo, 2004.

That was shown by a Heat Treat firm whose both was next to Sandy Cone. Pending further evidence as to their location we're going to have to call those "Templeton Arms" and not "Hemet Arms." I suspect that the key IDing feature of Templeton Arms is the 'Camel Hump' btwn the damperen mounting points.
:D

[WoodyW]

Duly noted.

[atomicjoe23]

I know this thread is pretty old, but I'm new to off-road (all previous experience in muscle cars and sport bikes, but I spent 2 years in San Diego and got hooked on the desert racers and now I have two 4WD's of my own to work on. . .I've got a '79 F-150 (I know it's old) that I'm currently designing a cantilever w/4-link and coilover rear suspension and a TTB w/coilover front suspension set-up. . .both ends for 20" travel. . .and a '94 Wrangler that the "nezzie/Hemet" arm would seem like a pretty good idea for. . .sp bear with me on resurrecting an old thread. . .

i also notice these trucks seem to fly nose high; more so than most trucks with shocks off the lower links.
isnt that a good thing?

I always thought that the desert runners wanted to fly nose high. . .every video clip that I've ever seen has the nose flyin' high!!!

My only worry about the suspension set up with cantilevers is if you get hit from the rear you could be out of the race ( look at where the rear link pivots from). Also note the sway bar mount.

CHECK OUT THIS PICTURE
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6829

Am I missing someting here. . .I'm not seeing the saw bar or sway bar mount???

I've created this clip to maybe help(?) with this discussion.

http://www.stuck-throttle.com/index.php?ind=downloads&op=entry_view&iden=53

Can't view the video???

Someday a year from now somebody's gonna come on here asking about how to build a 'Hemet Arm' and nobody will know what the hell they're talking about!-Colin
if someone asks how to build a Hemet arm in year- 1. they have no business building Hemet arms 2. I will laugh my butt off. 3. Hopefully we will have progressed to "San Jacinto Linkage" by then.

Guess you can start laughing. . .


Does anyone have any actual design info on this set-up??? I haven't searched "mezzanine", "nezzie" or "hemet" arm yet. . .this thread popped up on a cantilever suspension search and seems like a good idea for my '94 Wrangler. . .

Appreciate any and all help and suggestions!!!

[McClintock]

Am I missing someting here. . .I'm not seeing the saw bar or sway bar mount???


Does anyone have any actual design info on this set-up??? I haven't searched "mezzanine", "nezzie" or "hemet" arm yet. . .this thread popped up on a cantilever suspension search and seems like a good idea for my '94 Wrangler. . .

Appreciate any and all help and suggestions!!!

The sway bar link is mounted to the top 'mezzanine' (not sure why its coined that...) of that arm... The picture is pretty self explanatory.... Each vehicle is going to be different. Standard 3 / 4 link that constrains / locates the axle and the 'mez' arm faciliatates the shocks that is connected to a short link (read buckling?) that connects to the axle.

[DSRacing]

Here are a few photos of the mezzanine suspension,

Taylor Class 8

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/DSRanger/scan0003.jpg


Brian Kudela designed suspension on McPherson's Mig Mac from the mid 90's.
(Credit to Mikes race photo)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/DSRanger/BIG20MAC001.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/DSRanger/BIG20MAC003.jpg

[atomicjoe23]

I'm still not seeing the sway bar or sway bar mounts in the photo's. . .could someone circle it from a paint program???

This doesn't look like it would be very hard to design at all. . .seems to me the cantilever style suspension is more complex. . .this is just like having a rear mounted trailing arm that the shock mounts to in addition to the forward mounted link that locates the axle. . .but it does look like it would be a good set-up for a small wheel-base Jeep though. . .I like it for that application I think. . .

[DSRacing]

The sway bar arm and axle link are circled. The actual sway bar is attached to the frame and hidden by the fiberglass. I beleve the sway bar for Big Mac is inside the pivot box attachment of the mezz arm to the frame and can't be seen in the photo.

[McClintock]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/khsracer16/swaybar-1.jpg

[Giant Geoff]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j14/khsracer16/swaybar-1.jpg

Beater Jon, I think that clear hose on the cylinder is a fuel level gauge. I’ve seen that on buggies before.

[philofab]

Radiator overflow.

[baja B-rad]

I almost forgot I had these, they aren't mine and I can't remember where i found them

[atomicjoe23]

DSRacing and McClintock. . .thanks for point out the mounts. . .I was totatlly missing them. . .

The sway bar arm and axle link are circled. The actual sway bar is attached to the frame and hidden by the fiberglass. I beleve the sway bar for Big Mac is inside the pivot box attachment of the mezz arm to the frame and can't be seen in the photo.

Which one is Big Mac???

[DSRacing]

DSRacing and McClintock. . .thanks for point out the mounts. . .I was totatlly missing them. . .



Which one is Big Mac???

The one with all the dimple die holes.

[Sic_Racing]

I almost forgot I had these, they aren't mine and I can't remember where i found them

That explorer belongs to a friend of mine
he built it in his backyard and yes it works GREAT
he just put 3.0 bypasses on the rear and it works amazingly great

[azdirtworx]

I am curious,and maybe this has been answered before,but, on the ones using coilsprings instead of coilovers,what types of springs are being used??

[DSRacing]

I'm sure they are custom made for the correct spring rate and length called for by the builder. I doubt an existing off the shelf spring would work for this type of application.

[azdirtworx]

hmmm, aight...:(

[Mark Newhan]

Back in the day I built 3 or 4 trucks with the Nezzie arm. We had custom coild wound for the application. They were big bastards, 4"id 20'ish" long and 800# rate.

[azdirtworx]

Well thats a start,thanks mark.. any other info or help ya can throw at a fella...And what did you wind up building with those arms?

[Mark Newhan]

Probably the first 1450 truck, a Chevy with I beams that I raced in class 1 in the '92, '93 era. A class 8 truck 1995 era. These did not have but about 22" to 24" of travel. Went on to build a Ranger(red with a-arms) pre runner allthough it had coil overs. I was also involved in building a Blazer in 91ish. An '83 ford full size pre runner that ended up getting changed before it was done. This style truck works very good because of the energy is distributed to the chasis, which is why the truck built this way keep the nose high.

If you are interested in building a vehicle this way, you can use a coil over and calculating the spring rate is not difficult.

[azdirtworx]

im thinkin bout running it on a bronco,and if works out,then on to my f-150... both 90's

[CRAIGHALL]

Rick Johnson's truck from North American (Tony Vanillo)

[Steven_Tolbert]

So thats why rick got rid of his Pro trucks, he is stepping up to a TT?

[CRAIGHALL]

So thats why rick got rid of his Pro trucks, he is stepping up to a TT?

That is Barstow Ricks truck..

[Steven_Tolbert]

Ok not to hi jack or take this thread off topic but that is not Rick Johnson of Agave Motorsports that owns Competive Door and Finish in Hesperia? I know that Agave Rick has a very nice prerunner F150 with the same rear suspension.

[CRAIGHALL]

yes you have the right Rick.. Agave is Competitive Door.. Tony built both Ricks trucks. One got a T.T. the other a prerunner. Same suspension.

[Steven_Tolbert]

dude there is just too many Rick Johnsons.......either way both trucks are amazing

[azdirtworx]

so no one knows what or where to get coilsprings done for one of these setups or who to talk to bout it that has done some of these??:confused: