race car fires?

[mexracer10]

I know that any race car is vulnerable to a fire in the case of a roll over, but i have noticed that trucks seem to be more suseptable to fire than a buggy. I know that there are many sources where a fire can come from, but is there anything about a truck that causes flare ups of fire like hot oil, from where?, gas out of carb? fuel lines?
anybody have any experiances? The reason i ask is because i am more affrade of fire in a race car/truck than crashing or rolling over, so any extra measure to prevent accidental flare ups, could be use full.

[WorkInProgress]

I am not super familiar with fires in cars but I would think that having a fuel cell is probably the biggest fire preventative that we have. There is also your race suits that will give you a few more seconds to get out of the car. I think that it would probably be easier to puncture a fuel cell in a truck since typically it is in the back, but since it is usually in the back separated from the drivers it would be safer that say a buggy where it is right behind your seat. Another thing that comes to my mind is fire suppression systems. I do not know if they are used on race cars, but when I build my dream class 1 I will definately have a fire suppression system where you just pull a pin.:)

[mgobaja]

A lot of accidents are nose first, well in a truck this would damage fluid lines, resevoirs, coolers. And buggies most of the stuff is in the rear, so a nose 1st accident doesnt normally hurt those items as quick. A lot of fires in the engine compartment are from oil leaking from breathers that falls on the exhaust and then you have a good ole oil fire.

[WoodyW]

Fire supression systems are definitely a must have in my book, unfortunately many teams neglect to include them in the safety systems that are on their vehicles. The last fire I witnessed was the result of poor fueling practices where the fueler (no helmet, hood, gloves, etc...) dumped fuel, missed the filler, and fueled up a hot exhaust/motor and lit off a bomb. Of course there were no extinguishers nearby, and the fueler torched himself as well as nearly torching the driver/ co-driver. Car burned until a well prepared hawaiian team could make it over to the car to extinguish it (took a minute or two). Anyways, fueling itself seems to me to be the most likely source of fire danger...it all could have been avoided with better preparation and practice. (and maybe not a fill neck above the headers)

[mexracer10]

All good replies and i agree about the fire supresion system, a must have, it buys a couple more seconds to get out of the car and grab the hand held extingusher. We have had a pre-runner catch fire once and the whole engine went up dure to hot oil, the fuel cell was right next to the fire and never went up, i was surprised that the vent lines did not even go up, after a ton of sand was placed on the oil we were able to extingush the flames.

[twillis]

Fire supression systems are definitely a must have in my book, unfortunately many teams neglect to include them in the safety systems that are on their vehicles. The last fire I witnessed was the result of poor fueling practices where the fueler (no helmet, hood, gloves, etc...) dumped fuel, missed the filler, and fueled up a hot exhaust/motor and lit off a bomb. Of course there were no extinguishers nearby, and the fueler torched himself as well as nearly torching the driver/ co-driver. Car burned until a well prepared hawaiian team could make it over to the car to extinguish it (took a minute or two). Anyways, fueling itself seems to me to be the most likely source of fire danger...it all could have been avoided with better preparation and practice. (and maybe not a fill neck above the headers)

That is the absolute truth. We have been extremely lucky in this sport. I have seen people do every conceivable stoopid thing in the world while fueling the vehicles, such as:

-The fuelers who wear a pair of shades and a teeshirt, flipflops and cutoffs and spill fuel on everything around them.
-The pits where children and pets stand in front of the vehicle and distract the driver
-A crewman cutting off a steel bodypanel with a sawzall and throwing sparks on the car
- An exhausted fueler late at night in Baja smoking while surrounded by a bunch of empty dump cans.

I made a decision a decade ago that if I worked for SCORE I wouldn't risk a horrible accident because I wasn't prepared. So I started wearing a firesuit and making a mental note of where the extinguishers are near me.

[Ryan_P]

I would also recommend a "flame out" system for cabin of the car/truck. They come in three different sizes. The prices below are as following:

2.5 pound system - $300
5 pound system - $330
10 pound system - $475

They are a great investment for a quick fire put out, especially when a fire extinguisher is not as handy during the race.

-Ryan

[14802]

I agree fire is one of the worst racer's nightmare's, but it is very common a truck/car/buggy will have a flash over type fuel fire in route, or a fire while re-fueling without anyone knowing.(were talking about the little one's ie: fuel running down a rail to the header little flash and then it is out.) One of the worst is a oil,ps,tranny oil fire, cause it will usually be in your face(truck guy's). A 4 nozzle flame-out system is one of the best ways to go. Other than that find your nearest watering hole and drive in :)))

[Ryan_P]

Yeah, a flame out system IMO is a must for any race vehicle, because you are better safe than sorry. I am thinking about installing one in my play car that is being built. Even though its a Baja, stuff can still go wrong, just in case of a roll-over! =)

-Ryan

[pphat]

Any thoughts on Safecraft vs. Deist?

http://www.safecraft.com/MextInstalled.asp

http://www.deist.com/Fire_Systems/fire_systems.html

[Ryan_P]

Any thoughts on Safecraft vs. Deist?

http://www.safecraft.com/MextInstalled.asp

http://www.deist.com/Fire_Systems/fire_systems.html

They are both very good products, coming from both VERy reputable companies. They product that I was refering to when I was talking about the fire-out system was infact the Deist one, which IMO is one of the best.

-Ryan

[pciscott]

In my race experience I have had 3 fires in 3 different vehicles. First fire was a loose fuel fitting on a float bowl of a holly carburetor. The car went 3 laps at Parker and on the fourth lap a fire started under the hood, in seconds the hood was on fire and the truck was burning fast. The driver’s door was stuck shut with a broken latch leaving the fire extinguisher between the door and the driver’s seat out of reach. No flame out system installed in the trucks first race so we were left to throw dirt on it. Lucky some spectators between Bouse and Midway charged in with fire extinguishers and we got it out. Lesson learned: Double check your fuel lines and the float bowl screws on a carburetor are prone to leak. Also heat shield saves your lines and will keep the flames from burning though the fuel lines accelerating the fire. Mount fire extinguishers were they are easy to get to from outside the vehicle. My second fire was in a Protruck testing at Glen Helen, I put the truck on its side and oil leaked out of the breathers catching the truck on fire. Pulled the flame out and it did not work, two fire extinguishers knocked the flames back but the fire lit off again because the headers re lit the oil from the valve covers on fire. Lucky a water truck guy that saw what was going on dumped a couple hundred gallons of water on it and got the fire out. Lessons Learned from fire #2: Flame out systems get neglected in off-road cars, the spring loaded valve got full of dust and did not punch the hole in the top of the halon because it was jammed. I have also herd of flame out lines getting full of dirt not passing the halon through. Bottom line halon systems need to be cleaned and maintained a couple of times a year including blowing out the plumbed lines to make sure they are not blocked. Breathers on your valve cover need to be plumbed in a way so no oil can hit the headers during the race or a role over. Think of your breather lines the same as you would think of your fuel cell breather. We have the passenger side breather come up high and go down to the bottom of the driver’s side so no oil can escape in a crash. Even a good fire extinguisher will have problems putting out an oil fire because the headers will ignite it as long as they are hot. The 2.5 gallon water cannons work the best to put out oil fires because the take the heat out. The third fire I had was at Laughlin in 2002 about 5 fire extinguishers did not put a dent in it and a water truck put the fire out, if this happened out in the middle of the desert the truck could have burnt to the ground. The best safety equipment and fire suppression will not always stop the fire, but they should give you the time you need to get to safety. Andrew Wehe had a bad fire at the Baja 500 and the car burnt to the ground in a buggy, he had a two layer suit and got out of the car fast, but he did get some third degree burns on his wrist and some lesser burns on his eye. The fire started because the fuel breather was routed down and around back on to the floor skid pan. The car was pitted at Valley de Trinidad and the fuel overflowed out the breather, the fuel then ran down the skid plate and into the driver’s compartment. He took off from the pit and a mile down the road the car lit due to a spark of some kind. Andrew pulled the car over and got out in seconds and with a two layer suit he still ended up with a skin graft on his arm and some burns around his eye. The fire suit did not burn through the flames were just so hot it burned him through the suit. His helmet shield melted in and the plastic from his shield burned his eye. He told me from when the flame hit to when he was out of the car was like 7 seconds. This is scary; the burn doctor told him that layers of nomex will help save you from this type of burn. At PCI we had a run on Nomex underwear for the next couple of races, but most people go with the minimum requirements and are not prepared for a fire. Art Savadra one of the main Tech guys at many of the races can tell you how a fire can affect your life. Art was lucky to survive a bad motorcycle fire and has gone on to be an ambassador of our sport and a Father that is bringing up his Son into the sport we love. Art you rock and thank you for all your help over the years! I think this is a great thread and any help or information that helps a racer prepare for a fire is great for everyone involved. I have a 5 lb Safe craft system in my prerunner and Trophy Truck and 2 3lb halon hand held extinguishers. I have found that these devices help knock down a fire, but water puts out the fire best in my opinion and experience. I hope none of you have to ever go through what Art and his family had to endure. Plan ahead and race safe!

[Ryan_P]

That was a great post Scott, and you are totally right about the flame-out system. After numerous hours of the truck/car/buggy getting beat on, things like springs and trigger DO tend to go bad and need to be checked regularly. My advice to any racer, yet I am not one, is to check this things during your race prep, as they will help save your life. Even though a flame-out system will not put out an oil-fire as scott said, it will give you enough time to get out of the vehicle and get to safety as quick as possible.

I my car, soon to be a bug, I am going to install a 2.5lb or 5 lb flame out system and a fire extinguisher near the front of the seat of each the passenger and driver in case of a fire, even though the engine is rear mounted. Also, it doesn't hurt to carry a fire extinguisher in case you see a fire that has engulfed a car nearby. It is always good to take precautions and prepare for the worst, since you are ALWAYS better safe than sorry!

-Ryan

[uncledirty]

That was a good post, hopefully it will save somebody from losing there car or getting burned. I was allways guilty of running minimum protection in my 5/16 and 2/16, never had a prob thank God, but it was never really checked in tech that well either. I think SCORE should change the fire protection rules more so than roll cage tubing rules. you hear alot more fire stories than cage failure stories

[HTTP404]

This on board fire suppression system didn't cut the mustard.

Good thing half a dozen members of the Tecate Fire Brigade were present, and they all had an open container of 'fire suppression fluid' in hand and ready to go.

http://www.temecula.com/http404/FIRE.jpg

[jeff]

Another thing to watch out for when prepping a race vehicle... the cable that activates the system. I can't remember who was behind the wheel, but years ago at the 500 or 1000 either my uncle or Tom Ebberts pulled the red oh heck handle to put out a fire and the cable snapped clean in half. And it snapped before it activated the fire system. The car sustained some pretty bad damage and an ESPN helicopter caught them throwing dirt on it. Lucky for them it only cooked the back half of the car. The VW powerplant was pretty burnt and it definitely ended their race. Thankfully nobody was hurt but they were super PO'd the fire system was bought and paid for and did nothing when it was needed most. Prep prep and more prep.

My dad collected antique fire engines and was on fire boards for years. I grew up around fire equipment and from a young age was taught to always be prepared for the worst. We had a 1942 Ford fire truck in the driveway for ten years... partly because it was a restoration project, partly in case a forest fire came through the mountains. That truck was sold after my dad passed away but my moms garage is still the running joke of her neighborhood. It has a gas powered floating pump, a second gas powered pump, at least 1000' of fire hose, and four different nozzles that she can use herself. She's also got hydrant wrenches. Hose adapters and couplers. Fire pants. Fire jackets. Fire Boots. Fire Helmets. Respirators. Goggles. Gloves. It's sort of amusing to go through it every year with her.

My own vehicles are equipped with extinguishers and our motorhome has four of them. Remember that fire can happen to almost anyone anywhere... and it's not just race vehicles and racers that need protection. Prerunners and daily drivers need to be ready for fire too. If you have a kid or kids, a wife, a girlfriend, or know some that might not know how to properly use an extinguisher, find an old extinguisher that's ready for a recharge or the trash and show them how to use it. I helped a lady put out a car fire on the 91 a few years ago. She had the extinguisher out of her trunk but had no idea what to do with it. Having the right tool means nothing if you have no idea how to use it. Like Scott said, if you can't get to it during a fire, what good is it?

Car or truck fires... If there is a lot of smoke or flames coming from under the hood, don't open the hood up! That can lead to a mushroom cloud of smoke and fire and if you are standing there it can cook you quick. Popping the hood can also allow the fire to breath and spread. If a fire starts under the hood try to spray foam / powder through the radiator or core support toward the source of the fire. If that's not possible, barely crack the hood up and try to extinguish the fire that way. Just try to avoid actually opening the hood! Another thing... in some cases a small amount of water can do more harm than good during a vehicle fire. Especially if there is leaking fuel or oil. Water can also cause wiring to short out. The big fear is water can help spread the gasoline or oil which can cause a small localized fire to engulf the vehicle. An actual fire or water truck will have enough water that this scenario probably won't matter... but in some cases spraying only a gallon or two of water can make things worse. That's why dry powder and foam extinguishers are recommended for use in vehicles.

Regarding Halon. Halon is considered a hazardous gas for the environment and it's being outlawed in many places because of the HCFC's. But it works really, really well. If you can get a Halon system, spend the $$$ and buy one! Dry powder is cheap but it's really corrosive and the damage it can cause (cleanup, corrosion) may be more expensive to repair than the fire itself. Foam is easier to clean up and for most vehicle fires foam works pretty well. Another option is to run a large CO2 extinguisher. If you can't afford or can't find Halon, a CO2 extinguisher is a pretty nice thing to have. CO2 cools the area around the fire pretty well so in some cases it can help prevent additional flareups. And with the right adapter you can convert a CO2 extinguisher to run air tools and fill tires. And clean up is a snap.

Aloha

[mexracer10]

this is all exelent info, exactly what i wanted to read, but i got one more question is there any good places to go re-fill a extinguisher after using one? In San diego or any where? Or is it better to buy a new one?

[Ryan_P]

Yes, you can refill a fire extinguisher, but for some reason I wouldn't do it. I would rather spend the money on something that I know will work. the first thing I would do after refilling a fire extinguisher, if thats the way you choose to go, is to give it a little test try, maing sure it operates.

-Ryan

[Rprice]

I would not give it a test try after getting it refilled. Once you use the extingisher the gas will continue leaking through the nozzle untill it is out, this applies to most at home extingishers. you can find extingisher refilling stations by looking in the yellow pages.

[Ryan_P]

Hmmmm, cause I tried one out in my garage one time, just a little spray, and there was no leaking what so ever. It is still full to this day. Hmmm......

-Ryan

[FABRICATOR]

Powder extinguishers leak if someone leaves powder in the valve when re-filling. The pro's don't do that. I get about 500 a year refilled.

Most trucks also have a dry sump engine oiling system running all over the place which adds to potential leaks.

Never underestimate the flammability of ATF! It lights much easier than motor oil.

[pphat]

Dumb question: if you go w/ a 4 nozzle supression system, where do the nozzles go?

[racer951]

This is maybe a tad off-topic, but I have been told if the car is on fire, the hell with it; let it burn to the ground and run. Obviously fire suppresion systems give you the best chance of surviving and saving your car at the same time, and it's very cool to see them being implemented more frequently.

In the 70's my dad's race partner Donnie Broach suffered severe burns on a dry lake bed when their class 1 caught on fire. If I recall correctly, there was a lady there who tried to put it out with water (it was an oil or gas fire of some sort) and only spread the fire on his body. It seems like knowing what to do when a fire happens is just as important as having the right equipment.

[14802]

On a 4 nozzle system dependes on what you are running in. Trucks that have rear mounted fuel cell, and tranny cooler, 2 nozzles in the back low, but out of the way of flying debris,rocks,flapping flat tires, etc. The other 2 nozzles in on either side of the front firewall. This is with a 10lb halon system. You could add one on the inside but remember halon basically "removes all the oxygen" from a fire. So with said it could make for some tense moments if you are still in the cab when these systems are pulled.
We had a 20lb system go off in a computer room years back and they evacuated a 25,000 sg foot building, this stuff makes you feel like you are drownding above water.

[endeavor]

I know this is an old thread, but I found it on a search. I'm looking to purchase on on-board system for my racer, and need some input on a) where to buy an onboard system - one of the links above didn't work, and b) what size to get. The price between a 5lb and 10lb isn't much, but 5lbs is 5lbs.. Is the extra weight worth it or even necessary? I'm racing a Class 3 Bronco.

Thanks..

[Superfab]

What is your life worth? If you have the room and cash bigger is better in fire systems.You can allways find a place to lighten things up to make up for the weight. It gives you more time to get out and if you are a little beat up every extra second could count. Another thing is make sure the gloves you wear in the car are nomex. Also nomex underwear is a must. The good stuff actually wicks the excess moisture away from your skin and makes you more comfortable. Also save those old driver suits for the pit guys. Help keep them from getting burned while fueling. They should have the same protection that a driver does. Also mount a couple of extinguishers on the outside of your car for back-up. They may save your *** when you are miles from help!

[endeavor]

What is your life worth?I guess it depends on who you ask! :D

Actually, safety is VERY important to us - we've spent big bucks our our suits and carbonx unders and "overbuilt" our cage. I really just didn't know if a 10lb canister was overkill or not..based on your response, sounds like "not". Thanks!

Scott

[firedog]

This on board fire suppression system didn't cut the mustard.

Good thing half a dozen members of the Tecate Fire Brigade were present, and they all had an open container of 'fire suppression fluid' in hand and ready to go.

http://www.temecula.com/http404/FIRE.jpg


Hey I haven't seen those pic's before...I ran over to the car and the driver was Knocked out and the co-driver was getting out...tried to pull the extinguisher that was mounted to the cage behind the drivers head but due to the way it was mounted I couldn't get it out so next I concentrated on getting the driver out, I got the window net down and belts unlatched and he started to come around and we got him out of the car...someone came up with an extinguisher and it didn't help then the mexicans started throwing tecate on it and got the battery switch turned off and the fire finally went out. A pretty exciting moment for the 2nd race I had been to, we haden't even started building our truck yet.

[Byrdman]

When I met Jim Deist a few years back he was coming out with a new fire suspression
agent that was a soap/ detergent base. The idea was that in an off-road car, in the desert- with high winds the standard Flame-Out system will work for a short period of time ( enough to get you out of the car) but may not extinguish the flame totally because of the agent being blown away from the vehicle. The new agent was susposed to "stick" to the vehicle and help cool it down-and keep it from re-igniting.
Anyone heard if he put this into production or if it's available??
Regardless, even with a flame-out system, carry an extra 5 pound ABC with you. I don't use a flame out system but carry 2 5 pound ABC's with me at all times- one in the truck within my reach and one behind the cab just in case someone needs it on the coarse or cannot get to the one inside the cab.

[Johnson328]

I've thought about the foam/detergent extinguishers quite a bit - a buddy who is an emt/fireman/genius gave me the idea. I would imagine if you spoke with your local vendor that does fire extinguisher recharges, they could steer you in the right direction. As far as the regular bottles go, I like the idea of 4 on the vehicle, 2 in cab, 2 outside on the driver and passenger side. You never know when one from outside may not not accessible due to a rollover.....or any other catastrophe.

[ntsqd]

I've had one experience with a foam extinguisher. It didn't do the job, and this was in an enclosed room full of expensive parts. We had to go to the dry chem to get it put out. That was 3 days of cleaning and de-corroding stuff.

[Chris_Wilson]

I removed my Halon system and replaced it with a ColdFire system. Here's the
system I used:

http://www.firefreeze.com/site/page2.cfm

I also keep quick release extinguisher bottles mounted behind the cockpit where
pit guys can easily grap them. Good idea to mount your battery switch where the
driver can get to it after a crash.