Leaf spring vs 4-link

[scott]

Everyone----- What do you think???????? 94-96 Ford F-150-- Rear Suspension................................
Leaf Spring or 4-Link..( trailing arm)..... Deaver Spring has a set up for my vehicle, Thick spring pack
run under the axle, set of 3" bypass shocks with the frame c-notched, or the traditional trailing arm
4-link suspension with the 3" coil-overs, etc, etc,............................. Please Vote Thank You

[robert_encinas]

if you have the money and time go with the 4 link.you get more travelthat way.

[rdc]

I think you should go with the 4-link, (a) more travel, (b) works well with coil-overs, which I think you have. Not to mention, when people see that big old trailing arm underneath your truck they will probably stop and Stair, I know I would. You decide!
-Josh

http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[Junior]

You have got to go with the 4-link Bro.

Junior
EJR Racing #244

[John_Bitting]

If it is a daily driver I say go with the leafs, If it is a toy then link it.

[Steve_HKmtrsprts]

If your gonna do it do it right. 4 link that bad boy!!!

[rdc]

Dude, if you have the coil-overs then link it! Hell it is about the same cost! The only reason I have race packs on my truck is because I already had 'em. Take the time and do it right!!!!

Tony

[vwguy]

if its a toy 4link all the way but if you run it on the street i recommend the spring pack or have a good 4 link made

[Gabe_Lara]

Link that beast up, Scott!

[Jack]

The more links the better. Right?

[rdc]

No Jack. I think you are looking for the what makes a Disco Truck section...

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[scott]

WOW !!!!!!! I really appreciate the imput from all of you. Its is a Daily driver, and I did coil-over and widened the front-end, I was just wondering what everyones input would be.... Thanks again Scott

[rdc]

So what is it going to be bro...?

http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[scott]

I'd like to 4-link it, but the problem is, I have to come up with a large amount of $$$$$ to do it all at once.
So it looks like scott will have to sell his ASS to do it, DAMN IT !!!!!!!!! HEHEHE

[Greg]

ok, my 2 cents. Last night I broke the primary leaf while picking-up the markers at the ridgecrest race and after my best McGiver impression we finally got home around 1 a.m. Take the time, spend the money and do the 4-link.

Greg http://prerunners.com/lilrdrnr.gif

[rdc]

4-link and springs cost the same? Leaf-springsfrom Deaver around-$500. quality custom fab 4-link for an f-150 at least 3-4k and I would like to see a shop that would do it for that, try to name one.

[rdc]

Well Derek, I was thinking if you built the 4 link yourself ( person who owns the truck).. Is it really that hard to make 4 links that move through the same arc? I mean it is just a prerunner not a full blown race truck. Right? But if the use of a tape measure and a penceil is beyond you then I don't know what to tell you??? I guess someone has to keep the fab shops in business. You should try building track links for a 7S. A link to match the arc of a leaf spring. Thats a little harder. But it is what you need if you plan to use your truck with leaf springs and not break them like Greg did. Sorry to hear about your troubles Greg. Glad you got home okay. How does that duct tape work at holding them springs together??? hehe

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Donahoe]

4-link a Ranger at home:
4130 for just the links 200.00
3 1-1/4" threaded bungs 60.00
3 1-1/4" rod ends 300.00
Cheep fuel cell 350.00
cheep plumbing 200.00
2 cheep coil over shocks1200.00
mild steel bedcage 100.00
mild steel incab cage 200.00
total 2610.0

Thats with the hope that a mild steel cage will hold up and not putting in any cost for nuts and bolt and stuff like fuel pump or bed side or dzus tabs or getting delrin bushings made. Or you can go to a Fab shop and pay at LEAST $10,000.00 and have someone to **BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME** at when the body roll makes you hit a bus full of nuns on the 5 fwy when trying to make a quick manuver becuse you have WAY too much rear wheel travel for the truck and not enough horspower to get the truck in your lane again... Or you can go to deaver and plunk down $500.00 and have a great rear end that matches the rest of your truck. my 2 cents

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[scott]

Thanks Kreg..... Makes tons of sense. People see widened beams, and big coil-overs so automatically you have to 4-link it.........

[rdc]

Kreg, nothing personal but $200 for the moly? How much you putting in the round file? You can get about 50ft for that price.. And I hope your price is not $100 per 1 1/4 heim (moly). If so we need to talk... Shocks well you have a few options but if you go with some decent 2.5's your going to drop almost $800. And to control that body roll, I know you have heard of a sway bar.... Oh that will add another 100 bucks.

How about these list:

4 link =
Coil-over shocks = $1200
4130 for links = $80
1 1/4 Heims(moly) = $75 ea x 5 =$375
Fuel cell = $250
Pluming = $100
4130 bed cage = $250 (do it right)
Sway bar = $100
Yes you need it but who was taking about an in cab cage? And if your only spending $200, well what is the point. It is not going to save you azz!
Total= $2355

Leaf Springs =
Race packs = $500
Shocks = $800
Bed cage = $250
Still should have an in cab cage!!
Sway Bar = $100
Track rods ( so you don't snap your race packs) = $50 for tubing
Heims for track rods ( 7/8) = $50 x 4 = $200
Should still need fuel cell but I will leave that out.
Total = $1900

Now I am not saying you can just buy a set of Deavers for $500 and run some $150 2.0 shocks. Which is only $800 total. Not adding the price to mount the shocks. So lets just say make it an even $1000. The set up will work, but no where near what the above set ups will. And the best is the 4 link.. I never said it was cheap to go either way. Just said they are in the same ballpark. I mean if I am going to drop a grand on my truck. I think about it. And if I can spend twice that and have suspension that works 4 to 5 times better than I will wait and save up my pennies. But of course Everyone knows that a class 8 truck is much faster then a trophy truck!! Yeah right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How fast can you afford to go????


Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[scott]

Everyone--- I didn't post this for shops to rival each other, and people to try to get ones knowledge over other mans. I just wanted some input and cost management.........Thanks all

[BIG_FAT_LOSER]

shocks= $20 (pep boys)
overlaod helper springs= $40 (pep poys)
six pack= $4.99 (keystone)

$64.99 and a little buzz, and your ready to ROCK!!!!

my 2 cents! lol

http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif<font color=red>PAT KAPKO</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by BIG_FAT_LOSER on 04/24/01 03:44 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

[rdc]

There you go Pat. You got the idea!!!! Can't wait to see your new glass.....

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[rdc]

Now Pat has the right idea! That sounds like the killer suspension that I'm known for! http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Shaunhttp://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/ez/ezpi_cooldude.gif

[klaus]

How about the labor ?

Installing a set of leafs is what most people can do in their own driveway with common automotive tools, but fabing a 4 link takes more tools and skill.

Lets add shop rates to the above equation.

[rdc]

If you think about it this is really a “apple & oranges” situation. If the conversation were about the front suspension it would be the same. A good set of coils and shocks with the right beam’s (or Arm-s) & radius arm’s, i.e. Camburg’s products, would do the job just fine. But as good as a coil-over set up, NO. Look at it this way. The fat chick at the end of the bar at 2 a.m. would do the job just fine. Or you could wait for a bit nicer lass (higher maintenance too!) if that would make you feel better………… same thing. My opinion, wait for what YOU want.http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Shaunhttp://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/ez/ezpi_cooldude.gif

[John_Bitting]

Shaun, that is the funniest thing I have read yet on the new board.

[Jack]

HA HA thats to good...

[rdc]

Thanks for explaining Kreg. I was talking about the links and the material out the door for 3-4k, like Plank's four-link kit for the ranger. And yes Tigger I guess it is people like me who keep fab-shops in business, idiots that can't build their own four-link. Another point no one has made- if you are going to go to the trouble of four linking it you are probably going to want to bring up the frame-if you want over 20" of travel without your truck sitting like a pissed off stink bug. Another afternoon project right Tigger, just cut, bring up nine or so inches, measure out some tubes, heim them up, what do you know instant four link. Let see some pics of your work, you sound very experienced.

[Gabe_Lara]

No for to habla "keystone" Pat...
......es un "Pocho"............Yo queires Tecate!

[Greg]

Can I retract my last post? Kreg is right, You can instal a set of springs in one evening and build anice shock hoop in a day and now you've got 14-16" of quality travel. and if you shop around you can get some good deals Jen just bought a used race pack for $250 and 2 used (brand new) 16" 2.5 SAW for $400. Thats pretty cheap for that kind of travel. And it works really good.

Greg http://prerunners.com/lilrdrnr.gif

[scott]

AAHHHH--- Shaun, So that's why you never get 2.5 or 3.0 coilovers for your trucks, your dealing with all those high maintainence chicks........next time get a Fat Pig at the end of the bar, and then sweeten your ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rdc]

No way dude! I have my priorities. http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Shaunhttp://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/ez/ezpi_cooldude.gif

[scott]

HEHEHEHEHEHE Right On Man..........

[rdc]

Back on the subject..........
I don't know if you got my message but I called you from Camburg on Wed. afternoon. Jason and I were talking and he showed me some pics he had of some cool trailing arms that he thought might work good an your truck. You should check them out. The set up was with the frame rails still in tack.

Shaunhttp://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/ez/ezpi_cooldude.gif

[Donahoe]

The main thing I was getting at in my post was its not how much wheel travel you have rathen then how good your wheel travel is... Quality not so much quantity. Master the motion Ratio before you put huge amounts of wheel travel under the car... I know of lots of trucks that are miss matched and way off balance becuse someone had brain washed the owner into thinking more wheel travel is better... Thats not always the case... Look at a 7s truck 12" of front travel and 16 in the rear and they are hitting 3ft whoops flat out...That goes down to quality... GOOD SHOCKS.. Think about your truck as a whole unit... Match the travel to match what you want the thing to do overall... If you plan on driving it on the street ,Lots of wheel travel can suck. Yet sometimes Wheel travel is good... But I see alot of guys that just want wheel travel... MORE MORE MORE... then they mount a single 2.5 coil over shock on a trailing arm with the wrong spring rate and no by-pass and wonder why the truck is all over the road... And why does this happen??? Becuse they blew all there money on 4-links and fuel cells and now cant offord the brains of the suspension.... THe shocks. Just something to ponder.. I think Suspension Inovations is doing Planks 4-link kit for the ranger now... I'm not sure if they are geared up yet for sale but you might want to call them... the kit was 2500.00 from Larry but keep in mind that was just the links and mounting brackets.... Nice peice though...We have Installed one from Larry and its about as nice as it gets without going full custom. Tell them I sent you... Talk to Tom or James.. I think Jerry at Camburg was toying with idea as well. Donahoe Racing Can do them as well but you will end up spending more with us becuse ours would be a one-off deal. No fixtures for that stuff... It always seems to change from truck to truck for me.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[rdc]

Wow a 7S truck going across 3ft whoops flat out?!!! I would sure like to see that. Did SAW start making some new shocks I have yet to hear about??

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[John_Bitting]

I say flat out also... Did you see S&S at San Felipe. No new sway aways on that thing 4 year old bilsteins(sp) and Landfield(stankavich) at Laughlin on it big time. Ask Fresh he was racing against them. Tony, by the way. Why are you so negative? I see that you are really fast to attack peoples comments??

[Donahoe]

THATS RIGHT 3FT WHOOPPS ..... FLAT OUT>>>>>> WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS... I DID IT IN MY OWN TRUCK BACK IN 88... In Fabtechs truck in 92... In Helms truck in 95 and s&s does it everytime they race... Keep in mind that flat out in a 7s in not TT speed..

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[rdc]

Kreg I am sorry but I think your wrong and I hate to do this but if you had followed your advice " NEVER LIFT" . Then you would not haved rolled at Laughlin!!! Dude you hit the brakes, or does the front of your TT dive when you peg the throttle??? And top speed in a 7S is around 90mph and your telling me you can go through 3ft whoops at that speed? Or do you mean flat out in 1st gear doing like 35, 40 ? Like I said I would like to see this. I am not trying to be negative just putting in my 2 cents. Anyone got video of a 7S going through whoops at 90??? Please show me and I will admit that I am wrong. P.S. I used to prep the truck that Joe Custer is racing and still talk to the person that preps it. And that truck worked everyone at the 2000. And have never seen that truck run 90mph through the whoops. And just so I make sure we are taking about the same thing. When you say whoops you mean more than 2 or 3 in a row right? I am thinking of a real whoop section say 50 to 100 yards long or even longer...

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[rdc]

Tigger, Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what? Damit boy, All Kreg is saying is they kick **BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME** for the amount of wheel travel they have. You don't need 25" of travel in the rear if you only have 13 or 14 in the front.

[rdc]

Sorry didn't mean to defend myself!! I will run like a little girl next time. And you are 100% correct. If you only have 13 or 14" up front there is not much point in having 25" out back!! But when did I say that would work? And when did I say you need 25" of travel at all??? I read all the other post completely. I don't believe anyone is doing this with my post.

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Junior]

Tony, I am with you bro, this thread is way interesting and your questioning various aspects of these guys comments is what is making it happen. The dudes giving their opinions here, including you, are experts in my opinion. Dreamer dudes like me are absorbing free expert advice like a sponge in here. No need to back down.......just soften the tone a little. ......................now for my $.02. Can a 7s do 90 mph full out? I remember watching coverage of Ivan back in the his V6 TT days and people said he was doing only 90! Others like Robby and Robby Mac were clocked at 115 and 118. Can a 7s do 90mph in the dirt? I have a Ranger wanna-be pre-runner with a 2.9 v6 and it aint going anywhere near 90, not even on the highway!

Junior
EJR Racing #244

[scott]

Cool Shaun, I will do that. I know Jason won't steer anyone in the wrong direction, including my dumba$$....... Thanks man !!!!!!!!!!!

[frankh]

Tigger
Where do you come up with a speed from his post. flat out on a straight away and flat out through whoops are not the same thing, you have that problem of no traction for half of the time and i would assume a lot for drag from the front end. Second maybe you should look at that video a little more the never light part is before the jump, and you are right if he did not brake he could have pulled it out but then he would have taken a few spectators car out being there was a tight left hand turn a the end.

Frank

[rdc]

Junior, glad to see someone gets what is going on here. We all have are opinions. Not that one is right or one that is wrong. They are just our views. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I am bashing them. And if the can come back with a response that proves me wrong than I will except that...

Well you say you can't go 90mph in your ranger. How much HP do you have?? You must remember most 7S trucks are getting around 250HP. And now with the new rules that is going to change... And yes this is wide open on a smooth surface..

Which brings me to Franks comment. Be my guest to run a 7S truck in top gear wide open across a 3FT whoop section... I would love to watch that. I will bring my video camera. Got to dig on them crashes!!! And then you say Kreg hit the brakes to keep from hitting some cars/ spectators on the outside of the corner... Well putting the truck into a barrel roll was then the best thing to do. Because we all know you have more control when you have the roof on the ground!!!! He screwed up, I think we have all done that. Was just ribbin' him a little. I have looped a car and it was all my fault. I think maybe Kreg realized what he did wrong and NEVER LIFT is advice... Hope everyone has a great weekend where ever they are going, Estero or Barstow!!!! Have fun. And be safe!

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Donahoe]

Alright Smartass First off I can prove that you can go flat out over 3 ft whoops in a 7s.. and when I mean Flat out I mean as fast as the motor will take the truck over the whoops. Ask any agressive 7s guy.As Far as the whole Never Lift thing... I Say NEVER LIFT SO Hopfully No one will make the same call I did... BRAKE AND CRASH OR GAS IT AND POSSIBLY HURT PEOPLE??? And trying to caculate those choices 15 ft in the air at 90mph in about 2 seconds I think I made the right choice... Where I screwed up was Hitting that jump as fast as I did... Looking back I should have played it cool and just took it easy for the last lap... As you may recall I was LEADING the race and threw it away becuse I was grandstanding in a truck I was not completly in tune with. [censored] happens and you learn from it. But Tony I will have to take you out sometime in a 7s truck and show you what I was getting at. My whole point was to make people see the light on the whole WHEEL TRAVEL BRAIN WASH. YOU DONT NEED HUGE AMOUNTS OF WHEEL TRAVEL TO GO FAST!!! THat was it... But some how it turned into a Kreg is WRONG AND A **BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME****BAN ME**TY DRIVER THREAD..So all I can say to your comments is "I know you are but what am I" NEVER LIFT!!! EVER!!!!! NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[heavy8]

Kreg is right, that is why a stock full (spirkoff) drove the 2000 baja 2000 and beat the entire protruck class . It wasnt luck but the travel he had was usable and tuned. he averaged over 40mph for the 1700+ miles . you cant argue that.

[rdc]

HHHHMMMMMM Kreg sounds like you wrote just about what I did. And now we get down to the real stuff! Learn to read what other people post completely before you comment! I will take you up on that ride anytime. And if you prove me wrong then I will come here to this forum and tell everyone I was wrong... But do think I will do that if you take me out in a truck with 80hp that can only go 15 mph through the whoops. Show me the real deal!!!! And I will shut my mouth! And 16" of travel with leaves done right will not work as well as 16" of travel with a link setup done right. I think I have said this before and I will say it again, when did I say you needed huge amounts of travel???? I didn't ! Hell this is fun bring it ON!!!!!!!!!! http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[rdc]

Watchin' San Felipe on Speedvision. Hey Kreg your famous!!! They show your wreck and all that snow fencing you almost killed!! Or did you roll more than once????

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[John_Bitting]

Tony I dont know what your hard on is with Kreg but keep it off this board, This is why we started the new one. Call him up of be a man and go to his shop, Keep it off the page. We dont want to have to boot anyone, The page was going great until you waged war on Kreg. Open your own shop and prove him wrong. This will accomplish nothing attacking him on a board. Go see him....

[frankh]

Tigger
You should try using your advise and read my post. Did I say anywhere that he almost killed anybody, No I was just stating that he may have been able to land it if he could have got back on the gas but the fact is the the course ended, then there was a access road then the parking lot. But I don't think that you can see that from poor mans hill. maybe one of your IP friends or Dan can give you a ride through some whoops. I know he does not lift for anything. You would also see that you do not have a whole lot of time to decide what to do, It is funny how people that have never driven anything at any decent speed sit back and tell others what and how they would have handled a situation. It is a little easier to make that call after you have replayed it 100 times in slow motion.

[rdc]

You all are fouls. And still can't read.... Anytime you think your up for a ride Frank!!! Bring a change of underwear!! You don't know what I have done and you don't know me... Can't you f@#@@& read!!!! I guess not.... Kreg is the dumb azz that got on here and bitched at me, using the same words I just used. I said he relized his mistake. I also said we all make mistakes. I also said I have crashed and it was all my fualt..... I can't say how you drive because I don't know but I can tell you that you can't read!!! Now this is gone to a useless place! But when one of you figure out how to make leaf springs transfer weight to carry the front end of a truck like a link setup you let me know.... And Dan's truck is bad azz and nothing close to a 7S truck. Go ahead and rip me!!! remove me from your special little forum... I am done!!! I was having fun until the subject went from suspension to Tony doesn't like Kreg. Agian something I never said. It is all here in writen word so please go back and read it! And read it again!!!



Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Donahoe]

Hey I dont think Tony has anything against me. He is just posting his views witch it totally cool.. And like most people he is Brainwashed into thinking that to have Links its better. He says this out of hearsay. Pepole say it over and over and it becomes the truth. I would belive it too if I didnt build these things for a living. I would be just like every guy who comes into my shop wanting MORE WHEEL TRAVEL for his FORD to work in the bumps when all he needs is a Bilsien shock in the stock location and a good spring to make the truck work better. But no matter how much I say they belive the urban myth that there is some way to have a low budjet big travel kit. WELL IT DOSNT EXSIST... There is a HUGE JUMP in money from a truck that works well to a truck that works AWSOME and unfortunatly most of us can only offord the truck that works well. What I hate seeing is some poor kid Spending EVERYthing he has on a custom fabbed bad ass four link system yet it is holding up the truck on a single 2.5 coil over and nothing else becuse he ran out of money. I SEE IT EVEYDAY. But you cant talk them out of the enevitable ill handling project becuse guys like TONY tell them if its not 4-link ins not THE [censored]! Yeah dude you are Right a linked system with a fuel cell and a kicked frame and big by-pass shocks and duel rate coil-overs and air bumps and a front suspension that will keep up and enough horsepower to make it worth while and LOTS OF testing is incredible... PROBLEM?? COLD HARD BIG CASH!! The original post on this tread was a guy asking what we thought of the differnce between 4-link and leaf spring... Bang for your buck......... Dollar amount vs. Joy in the desert........Leaf springs. Thats my opinion from my realitiy........ And Tony I respect your tanasity and will to be right. In some ways you are right. But there is one thing you are lacking..............15years racing off-road trucks and 12 years preping then for a living. DOnt take this as a attack its not but when you spout out comment like "But when one of you figure out how to make leaf springs transfer weight to carry the front end of a truck like a link setup you let me know.... " It shows how little time you have testing leaf spring race trucks and pre-runners. Its REAL easy to make them transfer weight and bite to the rear end. It all goes down to set up and shocks. I'm sorry if this bantering is getting silly but I have this need to wipe out the fricken BRIANWASHING that come from bench racing. Plus for someone to outright say I'm wrong in something I feel strong about.. I have to respond. Tony I still love you... Just had to be said. P.s my spelling sucked in this one.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[rdc]

Kreg I have a question for you. I am currently in the process of a buildup on a 96 F-150 extracab prerunner. The front is already done with equal length beams 3" SAW coilovers and SAW bumps and 23" of travel. The rear will be tube chassis and I will run 3" 16" stroke coilovers and 3" 18" stroke 3-tube bypasses and a swaybar. My fab guy says he will shorten the wheelbase down to about 130" from the stock 139" what do you think? Thanks for your time. Just like to get as many opinions as possible.

[Donahoe]

Wow Sounds good to me... Yeah you dont want too much wheelbase.... That sounds about right to me... Good luck it sound like a screamer... Get a by-pass in the front as well if you can.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[rdc]

I've got a '94 Toyota (4wd w/ the front diff taken out and longerATS arms w/ dual bilsteins and SAW torsions) that I want to finish the rear suspension on. I'm getting about 15-16" out of the front and 9-10" out of the back. It sucks offroad...I can't go nearly as fast as I used to because the front's so unbalanced w/ the back. I want to get longer leaf springs for the added travel; is it ok to just use longer shackles? And how long do I need to go on the springs and shackles to get the right amount of travel to match the front properly? How much travel would that be?

Thanx!
Jeff

[vwguy]

i agree with kreg in saying that a 4link for most people is hype they want it to show off what maney they wasted on a truck they probably hardly ever drive off road to even know how it handles and a spring set up can be almost as good as a 4 link and get a good ride thats why everything is adjustable its not like you have a fixed spring and shock

[rdc]

Okay, the talk is back to suspension... Cool. Kreg you seem to be the man so I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain.... I would like to know how you set up shocks to get a truck to carry the front end uder power like a link set-up? Also in another thread you posted that you can use bypasses to trick the truck into thinking it has a sway bar? How is this done????

And to clairify a few things. I never posted that you need a 4 link to look cool in your truck that you drive on the street. I never said to go fast was cheap. I do believe I posted " how fast can you afford to go?" . Yes by all means use springs if you only plan to see the dirt every once in a great while. I would tell you to not even bother with race packs. Stock springs with some nice shocks will get the job done. I just look at it like this. If you are going to run wider beams with coil overs up front then why not have something in the rear that compliments it. You can run leaves but I don't think you will ever escape that truck ride. You either have a a lite spring rate for good ride on the pavement or you heavy spring rate for flying accross the dez!!! With links and coil overs you can have dual rate springs( two springs) and there by you can have both a god ride on the street and in the dirt. You must decide what you want you ride to do and what you want to spend.

one last thing, everyone needs to realize one thing that Kreg hinted at. You need HP to drive suspension. If you plan to run huge amounts of travel then you must have HP to push it accross the terrain. The body roll can be handled with a sway bar but raw HP is the only thing that can over come the energy that big travel suspension will eat up...

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[John_Bitting]

I am not trying to stir the pot but as far as the HP thing for big travel, That theory was proven wrong, or shall I say was shown you do not need it on a mini truck with the BAJA SHOP ranger. equal length beams and 4 linked running 10 car times in MDR with 64 hp, yep 64 a stock 4 cylinder. I know that you will have trouble trying to push a full size to go anywhere because of the weight with little hp ut I think it was pretty cool what that truck could do with what it had. Kinda like the little engine(tugboat) that could. :-) I am going to miss that thing... It was fun to see it come down pit road off the ground and sideways wide open :-) I will agree with Tony on the fact that anything less then four link on your truck Scott would just not do it justice 9" over stock in the front you should be getting 24" travel from that, and you could never get that out of leafs without major massaging, but I am guessing though but I have not heard of leaves getting more then 18" maybe 20" but not lasting long because of de-arching and foot long shackles

[Donahoe]

Well Tony it goes back to basics on the whole shock concept... What does a Shock do? Controls wheel rate. Right?. What happens to a truck in weight tranfer apon gassing it? nine times out of ten it sqats in the rear.. YES? Unless of course your 4-link is wrong or you have chosen to much rear spring rate. Which if this is the case the weight of tranfer will not move becuse the spring wont let it. (there are other factors too like where the weight is in the truck.. I.e. fuel cell and tires stuff like that) Now lets say your springs are right...the truck is holding ride hight where you want it and you dont have too much spring rate. Now its all shock valving from there You build the front shocks to create enough lift of the noseto send the waight transfering to the rear and you build the rear shocks to float like nothing in the ride highth area untill you start hitting your by pass tubes.... Its easy with a little testing.. Same goes for tricking the rear end into thinking it has a sway bar... the body can only roll if it moves suspension. You have control of when the rear shocks will stage. So now you can control side pitch as well... It all goes down to tube placement and valving... sometimes one thing will cancle out the other meaning you can get the truck to "RAGLAND" (carry the nose) as well as trick a sway bar...But we managed to do it with our CLass 8 chevy real well with no sway-bar... and very little body roll... And we are real close on Turners 7 truck getting it to carry the nose... But that is another can of worms.Tony if you really want a good educating on this stuff go testing with us some time... I will spend a whole weekend watching a truck thruogh the same hole over and over... We make changes ...Some times its faster sometimes its way worse... But thats how we know we are going in the right direction... ITs not Rocket scince its all trial and error... And we have made LOTS OF errors... TRUST me... But that how you learn....Thats why I say dont take heresay as the end all truth... GET OUT THERE AND DO IT!!! The come to your own conclusions. Keep in mind that there is no RIGHT WAY TO BUILD AND OFF ROAD TRUCK... ITS ALWAYS CHANGING... and what works for one guy may not work for the other... There are WAY to meny FACTORS to caculate.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

[rdc]

Kreg, I get the jist of what your saying.But you do you agree that the use of shocks in this way is best for only something that you are going to race? Seems like a lot of work for a prerunner. But I can see the advantages for a race truck ( less to break ). I would love to go testing with you sometime!!! I agree there is always something to learn and things are always changing. And you point out that what works for one guy doesn't for the other. This is so true!!! Driving style can change the whole set up. I love a car that has major oversteer!!! Put me in a standard buggy and I hate the push. I am not saying one is right or one is wrong. It is up to the driver... And one thing I just want to make sure everyone knows. If you plan on making the bomb azz Prerunner than make sure you cage it!!!! And don't go cheap here period! I think everyone with a brian will agree with me on that. I feel that all cars should be caged but that is as Kreg would put it " another can of worms" .



Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[rdc]

Tony, you dont think that the shock work Kreg is talking about is worth it on a prerunner? These vehicles see the harshest [censored] way before the race truck. Look at these 200k+ prerunners, I doubt that some teams would spend almost as much on their prerunners as they do on their race truck and not worry about the shocks.

[rdc]

Well of coarse Derek. If money is no object do what ever you want. But I was told why go four link when leaf springs work just fine. Now listen to what your saying " spend thousands of dollars on setting up shocks vs around $100 on a sway bar" . Kreg please correct me if I am wrong, but the shock work that Kreg desribed is big$$ .

Lets move on and talk about different link set-ups and / or get some pics of spome trick set-up posted here.

Tony http://www.race-dezert.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[John_Bitting]

Here is some questions for you guys... Whats the difference between 4 link and 3 link, I know mounting points but advantages/disadvantages, why one over the other? Full heims on both sides or bushing at the frame and heim on the rearend? Best procedure for trusseting/gusseting rear end with minimal warping? Min/max length for trailing arms?

[Junior]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need some photo's and or diagrams for this thread. Don't skip over the basic setup differences between 4-link and 3-link either. Now I will shutup sit back and listen.



Junior
EJR Racing #244

[Jack]

Ya, diagrams would be great. I read somewere that it there is more to consider then just pion angle and constant arc for settining up a fourlink something about antisquat having somthing to do with the angles between the bars and the CG of the truck???

[Jack]

Oh, and can you get this effect with a traction bar and leafs?

[Greg]

From what I gather the a 3-link has a slightly more "solid" feel than a 4-link but a 4-link has a strength advantage because all the end links only see radial loads. A lot of people mount the upper heim with the bolt going horizontal but a verticle mounting would be much stronger on the 3-link. On designing a linkage style rear the things to be considered are driveshaft plunge, pinion angle, anti-squat, bump/roll steer, and last but not least roll center height. Most people just weld the links and put brackets where they fit and ,shazam, a 4-link. usally followed by severe wheel hop and a truck that handles about the same as your dad's aluminum fishing boat.
Leaf springs can be made to change these things also but changing the front mounts is usally a pain and noone does it. also because of the deflection of the leaves some changes are hard to calculate. I run a set of "traction bars" on my truck and have had good results even with a super soft set of springs.

Greg http://prerunners.com/lilrdrnr.gif

[scott]

John-- I was just trying to get input.... My truck front end is wider, but its not equal length. I don't get
24" of travel, 21" unlimited, 19" w/ the straps and bumps. I was just wondering for a full size truck for the dollar, to get around 20" of rear travel what would be better for the dollar. This thing is a daily driver, and I'm not building a race truck. However, I'd like the play, and drive it home that day, wherever I'm at..... I know what looks cooler, and I know both work, but what i'm looking for is...like
Kreg Donahoe pointed out is bang for the buck. Some people are saying Link it up !!!!! Then I get people
telling me a set of good National's with the frame notched, a bitchen bed cage W/ a set of 3" bypass shocks should be good enough. Ultimately the decision is mine, and I know there's going to be people
telling me I should have done it this way or that way, or mother F'ing the truck behind my back, and thats testosterone nature, and its all good.... Like I said just looking for imput..... Thanks All

I DON"T WANNA LIFT hehehe

[rdc]

When you mentioned anti squat, it jarred loose an old memory of an article I saw in an issue of race car engineering. I dug it out and the attachment shows a line drawing I copied out of it. Keep in mind the angled lines from the bottom of the rear tires are FORCE LINES not link placements. A force line is determined by the horizontal force (propulsion) and the vertical force (weight of the vehicle acting against the suspension)

To quote the article, The anti-squat provides a total absence of rear suspension compression under power, but the front of the car will rise. The anti- pitch will cause the entire vehicle to rise equally.
Obviously this is only a small part of many variables which go into the design of a suspension system. But if it's not done correctly your truck drives like !#%&. It's been mentioned before, Anyone can weld on some trailing arms and call it a 4-link. But just because they built it doesn't mean it will work. The most IMPORTANT thing that matters is the knowledge and experience of the person building the vehicle.

Just my 2 cents...

Keep the dream alive!!